Killing off a whole tag for a land exchange between two countries, with mixed opinions on retal windows and what were RoRs or not, is also fun stuff.

ZEN, It's been the same team all along.

When it comes to war, it's always you've that started it through killing rather than retalling.

We've not carried anything over from previous sets and we haven't looked at it as an ongoing war. If we had, you'd know.

I was hoping for 5 man teams and an interesting server.

It was cool in the beginning, then the retards started flowing in.

Peace out, HF

The pre-cursor to further hostilities came from you. Here's how it went down.

96 hits 56
FBI retals

FBI does two hits on 109
109 retals
FBI RoRs
109 retals RoRs
FBI kills 109

In addition there are these hits:

Sep 09/10 3:25:23 PM PS UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (#7) (FBI) No Future Fears (#83) (Espion) 42 A (+21 A)
Sep 09/10 3:24:40 PM PS UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (#7) (FBI) No Future Fears (#83) (Espion) 54 A (+30 A)

Next set I'm not playing in this stupid-ass server

One grab between two completely different countries relates to this?

Should have just retalled that one.

Bah

Sep 14/10 3:01:54 AM PS MirKOd via LHK (#109) (Espion) Rigorous Mortis (#80) (FBI) 218 A (+210 A)
Sep 14/10 3:01:50 AM PS MirKOd via LHK (#109) (Espion) Rigorous Mortis (#80) (FBI) 232 A (+219 A)
Sep 13/10 3:23:16 PM PS MirKOd via LHK (#109) (Espion) Rigorous Mortis (#80) (FBI) 414 A (+269 A)
Sep 13/10 2:52:01 PM PS Rigorous Mortis (#80) (FBI) MirKOd via LHK (#109) (Espion) 272 A (+122 A)
Sep 13/10 2:51:24 PM PS Rigorous Mortis (#80) (FBI) MirKOd via LHK (#109) (Espion) Defence Held
Sep 12/10 11:31:49 PM PS MirKOd via LHK (#109) (Espion) UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (#7) (FBI) 389 A (+185 A)
Sep 12/10 11:30:49 PM SS MirKOd via LHK (#109) (Espion) UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (#7) (FBI) 308 A (+134 A)
Sep 12/10 11:29:36 PM SS MirKOd via LHK (#109) (Espion) UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (#7) (FBI) 373 A (+150 A)
Sep 10/10 4:17:56 PM PS UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (#7) (FBI) MirKOd via LHK (#109) (Espion) 73 A (+66 A)
Sep 10/10 4:17:54 PM PS UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (#7) (FBI) MirKOd via LHK (#109) (Espion) 78 A (+67 A)

Oh well, set ruined again. I don't know why we don't give up on this server.

C'mon ZEN...

"We adopted a 48 hour retal window this round"

You did this in stealth mode?

Your guy farmed us first, by your standards it'd be okay if we killed it.

Oh jeez, another set of this

Or we could all be tech allies, who knows?

Derp derp

A reconnect function shouldn't have been too hard to build in though

I play SC2 ;)

Mmmmmm arbitrage

What's this small rooster of which you speak? Is this some kind of metaphor for something, and this agression due to some kind of complex?

Reservoir Dogs and killer racoon AVENGERS. This will be Ragnarok

I'd just like to repeat some of what was said in the earlier post by h4, because people seem to think there is organized farming of small tags within LaF, as if we were saying "Omg look at Ely, everyone go farm now!" . There isn't.

It's like h4 said, it's a snowball effect. Say LaF has 20 members that are grabbing (we actually run mostly all-x now, we're lazy too), and they all look for land. The first "grabber" will check out lists of potential targets. If he finds that Ely has low retal capability, he might hit them. The next grabber will see these hits in the news, and check out Ely himself, and he might hit as well.

Now there are two possibilities:

1) Retal the hits hard and fast, these first hits shouldn't be a fluff to retal. This will deter further grabbing from LaF, or any other grabbing alliance, as they see that hits get retalled and it doesn't pay off (as we generally have much more to lose from a retal, than to gain from a couple grabs)

2) Ignore the hits. The ball starts rolling as more and more grabbers see that hitting your alliance is of no consequence.

The best option however:

Have retal capable countries early. The first grabber will ignore you, as it's not worth trying. So will the next grabber, and the next. You don't show up in the news, you're left alone, and you can keep building retal capability due to no economic losses.

LaF doesn't conspire to farm alliances into the ground. We don
t band together to put out enough hits to outrun retal capacity. It's a snowball effect of many individual players' choices if extensive farming happens. You say 30 hits a day is unsustainable. That's 2 hits per day for 15 members.

What you need to do is prevent the snowball from rolling at all, which you do by deterring the individual player's choice of grabbing your alliance, as every individual will consider his personal risk of loss to his personal gain from grabbing. If we made a team effort to break down the retal capabilities of an alliance, it would be way worse than what you're seeing.

There are friggin untagged dicts that don't get hit because they build their retal capabilities early.

And seriously, a 5 man tag in alliance moaning about the feeling that they get bent over and gotta take what's coming? Gimme a break and go play team.

fluff off!

Kindly,

Severe Trauma

Grats ensh :D

So that's what you've been doing all these years? :)

Well, that's not the way it is Forgotten.

Obviously the "Team" server is not meant for the 5 man teams tags are restricted to. The game devs intended this server to be more of an organizational challenge, seeing how alliances cope when they have to split their whole alliance into separate, small tags that play as an alliance!

Clearly that's the intention of this server.

Not for there to be actual 5-man teams competing with other 5-man teams -.-

Yes I was part of MadeMen 2 sets back.

So what? I don't see what you're getting at.

I did not perform any actions prior to them attacking me that could have indicating me not trusting them, hence me not trusting them could not be the issue for them to attack me. We didn't attack them or do anything should be seen as provocative based on what they've told people on these boards. I have not seen anywhere that there's an LDP or whatever between Rag and RD

Also, when is proving that distrust is justified a good approach to take if you want people to trust you?

There's a difference between stealing a kill and doing 60 missiles and almost as many GSes.

I have been talking to FBI outside of this board. They're silly and i triple tapped one of their members earlier that set.

How can you say I don't trust RD? I didn't do anything to them all set, nor did any member of JFL. I never chose not to trust them, I completely ignored them and they hit us. I don't give a fluff what they did to Rag or not. I guess "peaceful" is the wrong choice of words, I guess "defensive or non-agressive" or whatever is more describing.


I'm just pointing out that the whole "leave RD alone" thing is bullfluff.

So, just to be clear..

"Don't touch RD OR Rag and RD will leave you alone". RD tag protection extends to Rag as well, got it.

They clearly needed your help, 5 countries FSing 20..

Such fluffing bullfluff

LC: I was #85

And as for RD "joining in on the fun" it still voids the whole "Don't touch RD and we don't touch you" concept.

Not saying that RD was ever to be trusted, but you've been bragging about the new peaceful RD that will leave you alone if you don't attack, which clearly isn't the case.

The "Don't touch RD and they won't touch you" is also BS.

I didn't touch them once this set, yet still they sent me 60 missiles and a bunch of GSes, killing me while I was walling FBI, Rag and RD

(I went to take a dump and died :/ )

So you're saying you won't x-retal or x-kill next set?

Started at 15, 27 now :/

By the way, what happened to "don't touch us we won't touch you"?

RD missiling me left and right when no country from our tag has touched any RD country, also GSing along with Rag.

I've recruited several LaFers from untagged/spam tags by first GDI farming them for 3 days and then sending a recruiting message afterwards saying that this will never ever happen to them again if they join us :)

Good luck to you too Galleri :/

LaF never tagkills..

It destroys acres..

Well, in our opinion you're the ones who RoRed, after which we retalled and you killed one of our countries, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

LOL ;)

We enforce the following L:L on topfeeds:

We do not count ghost acres as land lost in the initial grab but we do count ghost acres as land regained in retals. We enfore a "L:L lite version"

I suggest you let it slide and don't topfeed MadeMen again

And seeing that it was good, he rested on the 7th day.

Where's the y?

There, I ruined it..

Sigh, how many times do I have to say it.

We never condoned cross-killing, nor instituted it. We fought against cross-retaling in a war that got triggered by the opposing side cross-killing when we did not accept their cross retals.

X-kills have never been shown to be acceptable

Ronnie, just so you know where we're coming from. Neither ViLSE's team nor my team cross-kill, nor have we done it in the past. What we have done is cross-tag war, to fight the policy of x-retals, where basically two sides fought over it.

You could say we fought cross-kills as well, as cross-kills were what triggered the war. (E.g. we retal cross retals as we don't accept that, they kill us for retaling their cross retals, we war them)

Both ViLSE and I are in 5 man tags, not LOT1, 2 etc, and we don't cross-kill.

I'm strongly against both.

lol crimson, I saw now that you wrote to ViLSe. I was scrolling bottom up, and I'm a bit mad because the one day I'm away from teh interwebz at our summer house I get killed in a 10 hour KR.

ViLSE and I both agree pretty much though. What I can't see in this thread is where we try to justify cross-killing and try to keep it in the game. We don't want cross-retals, cross-killing or cross-war.

What we're saying is that up until now we've fought against x-retals, not x-killing as of yet.

And Ronnie,

I'm trying to figure out if I'm discussing with you or if we're agreeing all the way, because I think that this server should be all about 5v5 strictly limited to tags as well, and fluff the pacts.

I never said that x-retals are bad and x-kills are fine Crimson you moron. I said that we had fought over x-retals, but not over x-kills yet.

What a retard.

And Ronnie; obviously you can do missile retals or whatever you want, it's just a matter of if the receiver accepts that, and if it's you or them who have the strength/will to enforce their policy.

This enforcement of policy should obviously be tag vs tag, but when you have 3 tags on one side and 1 on the other it's kinda lopsided, isn't it?

Edit: And please note, I don't say it's against the rules to retal outside of 72 hours, with missiles or whatever, it's a matter of policy.

I guess I suck at communicating over the interwebz.

I would love for this server to be 5v5 only. What I'm trying to argue against here is both cross-retals and cross-killing. I would prefer if there were nothing "cross-tag", each tag for itself. I'm not trying to argue against this at all.

What you call justification for cross-tag killing, is me saying that we've focused on cross-tag retals. I don't think there should be any cross-tag kills either, but how are you going to enforce a policy of not accepting cross-tag kills without getting help (cross-tag war?) If you don't get help, you'll have one tag which is against it fighting 2-3 tags that are for it. Ok, so maybe multiple tags will fight it, are they then cross-tag warring or is it a bunch of individual tags fighting the same 3 tags? Can they run joint kill runs or not? Agree on which tag takes which tag?

The problem with attempting to fight any cross-tag policy is that you'll be outnumbered by default unless you're gonna cross-tag war.

That's why we had two sides duking it out in the "X-retal vs Anti X-retal" war.

These are the reasons why it happened. I don't condone nor justify x-retals or x-kills, I'm just trying to explain that we focused on x-retals, and that the war got started over the clans doing x-retals also doing x-kills. (So I guess you can say we fought both, a stance on x-retals caused x-kills, which caused x-war)

I feel like I'm going in circles here, I don't understand why it's not apparent that I'm against both.

Put retal capable countries in each tag and it's not a concern. Seems simple enough as well.

We did not perform cross-tag kills over a measly cross-tag retal Braden, we banded together and killed tags that performed random kill runs as they please because they were 3 MKR tags and 3 Beer tags who thought they could do what they want. Cross-tag retals caused the conflict, but what really set it off was when they killed Nitell and me without any reason.

I never said that I agreed with cross-tag killing, I'm completely for that everything should be limited to tag on this server. If tags wanna have DNHs with eachother, fine, but that's the only pacts there should be.

What I did say is that at the start of the server we fought wars over cross-tag retalling as it was perceived as a bigger issue. I still think it is. If I were to choose between "banning" cross-tag retals or cross-tag killing, I'd still ban retals, as they are such a defining factor in the tag interaction on this server. Again: the analogy that you call in allies for war in the alliance server, but having allies do your retals is unheard of. In every day play, at least for the tags that want to net, it's much more important knowing what you can grab "safely". You shouldn't have to worry about getting killed, cross-tag or not, as long as you play within the norm of grabbing "rules".

That being said, I stress that I'm not for cross-tag killing. I'm completely against it. The point is that most cross-tag kills are _justified_, and by that I mean that the kill is justified, not necessarily that 1, 2 or 3 tags do it. The people getting killed are 5x-tappers, AB/NM/CM retals and RoRs etc, and as a result there's not that much fuss because they "had it coming".

I haven't seen anywhere the case of "Death over a silly retal". What I am concerned with is the fact that RD are doing cross-tag retals. When we retal that, as we don't accept cross-tag retals, we receive AB RoRs and tons of harmful spyops.

We had to a large extent removed cross-tag retalling prior to this set. If you're gonna be part of a group that brings it back, after how vocal you were last set and set before that I'm gonna be sincerely disappointed.

And just to get things straight.

We didn't do cross-tag killing, we did cross-tag war. There's a distinction there.

Lesser or greater evil depends on how you look at it.

I think your interpretation of "clans are allowed" is flawed. The clans referred to are the 5 man tags, not a coalition of tags acting as a clan.

The way MadeMen look at it is that each tag is it's own clan, and we treat each as a separate entity. I support the notion that everything is 5v5, both retals and killings, but again, what we have fought wars over are cross-tag retalling as it is a bigger concern, at least for us, as a defining factor in tag interaction.

Cross-tag killing can still be seen as calling in allies in times of war, whereas cross-tag retalling does not have an analogy in the alliance server.

How are you going to fight cross-tag killing without doing it yourself though?

Ronnie, we don't disagree with you on that, and would prefer everything to be 5v5, but as it is we've fought harder against cross-tag retalling than cross-tag killing as it is a more "defining feature" of how relations between tags are and affect us more in the normal state of play, due to countries getting cross-killed usually has done something to deserve a cross-kill.

Your analogy with football could just as easily apply to the alliance server and wars there.

I don't get if the "star player" is a reference to cross-tag-retals or not though.