new predictions:

RD: 1
Laf: 1
Omega: 2
Sof: 3
Sanct: 1
Evo: 2

i think so, although armadillo would've given him a run for his money last reset if SOL didn't kill him for no reason at the end of the reset ;P

i think if we are to judge legit versus non-legit, we have to agree as a community on what is legit and what is not (fat chance i know).

so as far as we know, of the top 5 countries right now:

Mr Silver: farmed own tag (countries were not quitting), GSed by own tag, most likely FAed

m0m0 Pot Licker: FAed

m0m0 Candle Beggar: nothing suspicious

highrocking around the xmas tree: 2-stepped a retal on a Sol war topfeed

GoodScoresSof: farmed own tag (may or may not have been multi, may have just been quitting member)


Now as far as I'm concerned, only Mr Silver and m0m0 Pot Licker are non-legit. I'm not only saying this because I'm one of them. But the other stuff (farming quitting member, 2-stepping retal) has been done many times by many netters and I thought was mostly considered legit (unless the farming was really a multi).

But I know some will think that only m0m0 Candle Beggar is legit while others will think they are all legit. I think it's good to be able to sort this out officially as a community.

I guess i was wondering if they had the order there on purpose or just forgot about it and got screwed when someone (wonder who) dropped there stock @53. the bushel market crashed basically right after that stock drop so they must have lost quite a bit...

yea that's exactly the way i got screwed last reset...although technically if they have been doing that all reset, they didn't really get screwed. they just lost all the profit they made reselling and basically ended up in the same situation as if they just hid their stock the whole time.

It's a great way to crash the market.

Dump huge batches to fill orders first. Then anyone else jumping has to undercut, fill next level orders, and then cause more undercutting.

Guys who put in huge orders get screwed because they resell at a loss.

What's Bobby at now?

In earths last reset I had a 95m net finish with a country that was untagged and "I think" untouched all set. It had no chance at a real good finish though as I stayed top 10 Commie for most of the set to keep LGers away, which meant very little stockpiling before going MBR.

the bushel market is ALWAYS going to insta-mega-crash now with the changes in place that removed the 2b bug... i would think.

Though i would have no idea how the market has played this set not having a country above about 100k Nw for weeks:p

nice Serp! Ya Armadillo had a great country last set. I think I'm gonna hit about 110M...

Good one. What did you play?

Theo indy->tech->MBR. Gotta jump early as untagged so only jumped to like 55 or 60M. The rest was reselling which fortunately for me military prices stayed pretty high all set...

Ahh, I found it, using Evo GT.

'Twas a bit larger...to the tune of 478,405,420 bushels sold--all in one second, and all to multiple standing orders. Below is a list of all countries who bought the bushels:


Date/Time (Local) Good Price Quantity Sold Standing Order NW Involved (Demo) NW Involved (Commie) NW Involved (Normal)

Time Country Networth Net Chg Land Land Chg Govt Tag GDI Comment
----------------------------------------------------------


Jan/13/11 20:44:00 <> Bushels $53 17,140,519 1 $-28,282 $-32,824 $-31,007

Jan/13/11 20:45 Yings THronE (#275) 7,024,041 -31,007 23,283 0 R EVOdiez 0 Sold/Ally/Harmful Op
----------------------------------------------------------


Jan/13/11 20:44:00 <> Bushels $53 19,354,101 1 $-31,934 $-37,063 $-35,012

Jan/13/11 20:45 Red House (#415) 23,829,136 -31,933 28,438 0 D TheOmega 0 Sold/Ally/Harmful Op
----------------------------------------------------------


Jan/13/11 20:44:00 <> Bushels $53 16,959,727 1 $-27,984 $-32,478 $-30,680

Jan/13/11 20:45 Militia X (#341) 5,622,037 -30,679 23,453 0 R MONSTERS 0 Sold/Ally/Harmful Op
----------------------------------------------------------


Jan/13/11 20:44:00 <> Bushels $53 27,533,100 1 $-45,430 $-52,726 $-49,807

Jan/13/11 20:45 Richard Dawkins is GOD (#86) 6,608,191 -45,429 20,240 0 D MONSTERS 0 Sold/Ally/Harmful Op
----------------------------------------------------------


Jan/13/11 20:44:00 <> Bushels $53 11,643,576 1 $-19,212 $-22,297 $-21,063

Jan/13/11 20:45 Reigndeerz has put on weight (#265) 6,287,030 -19,213 14,108 0 D LaF 1 Sold/Ally/Harmful Op
----------------------------------------------------------


Jan/13/11 20:44:00 <> Bushels $53 18,774,397 1 $-30,978 $-35,953 $-33,963

Jan/13/11 20:45 Thomas The Tank Engine (#106) 13,617,949 -30,977 30,276 0 D SancT 0 Sold/Ally/Harmful Op
----------------------------------------------------------

And, the big one:

Jan/13/11 20:44:00 <> Bushels $53 367,000,000 1 $-605,550 $-702,805 $-663,903

Jan/13/11 20:45 WARLORDe (#166) 4,926,682 -605,550 22,495 0 D TheOmega 0 Sold/Ally/Harmful Op
----------------------------------------------------------

This country was a demo when that happened, btw. Probably suffering from massive corruption...I'd love to know just how he acquired so much money, only to spend it all on bushels. I'd hope that the owner of this country was online soon after he purchased those bushels. It'd be quite an inviting target.



And, the country who likely sold them:

Jan/13/11 20:45 m0m0 Candle Beggar (#252) 11,639,826 +714,793 24,184 0 H SOF 1 Bought/Tech/Build


That country was likely online when the purchase came through, because it happened ~25 minutes after he went into GDI, which is probably the reason the networth change doesn't quite add up. Since the country in question had already changed gov to Theo, I doubt it was an accident on his part. He was simply ready to make his jump then, and has probably been buying off private since.

is evo netting next set?

should play there for a set just to use the tools.

WOW you guys have tools to see who bought standing orders? No wonder you always win ANW.

It's not too hard to have enough money to buy piles of bushels. Sell your whole stock at current price and buy it all back at $1 less via standing order. I'm guessing at any one time there are multiple demos doing this.

oddly enough I believe we're warring this one; but then going back to netting !

wow thats a pretty darn good analysis hahaha thanks nukevil

nobody is netting..=(

Laf s netting I hope :P

that's for me to decide ;)

Based on Highrock's comments and other comments earlier figured I'd add my two cents.

Back in my old earth days I too was quite into the "legitness" of finishes, getting aided over, bought-out over, or hit with multies time and time again. Kept thinking about "oh this isn't fair".

I'd argue against those that said "This is an alliance game, not an individual game, there for individual effort isn't as key as the group as a whole, what ever they chose to do to accomplish it"

Maybe it's that now I'm older, or maybe it's that I'm lazier and just don't care as much... But really they were right. Even more so now that we have active admin's so the primary game can actually be a place for solo's.

The alliance game is a team enviroment, it's meaning is to be as such. Help countries receive can come in many ways...
1. Pacts- Other than one or two members in the alliance, you're not being grabbed, or able to grab other people because of arrangements that someone else made. You didn't cause the other alliances to not be able to hit you, someone else did, that's aid.

2. DRing- since it was brought up earlier that GSing countries is by all means "non-legit" that works much the same way as Pacting. It prevents a country from being the target of another alliance due to the work of a few other members.

3. Buyouts- A few members sacrifice the networth they could have had to raise the networth of one or two. They do this to get not that person to a rank but to get the TAG next to the person to a rank. They want that TAG to get to whatever position it can get to due to the buyout.

4. FAing- much the same as buyouts except at a smaller scale. it has to do with increasing the tag in a way that would benefit the TAG by making it look better. Maybe a rank 10 instead of a rank 11, or 20. whatever the case it's not really for that individual.

5. Retallers- Even having a retal country in your tag, an early communist, or midset techer is a form of assistance. People are less likely to grab you because of them. You're receiving help from someone that goes once again beyond the bounds of your own country.


Basically, moral of the story is... Being in an alliance game we try to put away what our individual wants and focus on what the clan we play for wants or needs. What helps them the most.

During war times it's easy to figure out what that means, during peaceful times it's figuring out other things will fit in as well.

Could a member of SoF call an Omegan "non-legit" because they had more pacts than SoF this reset?

Could a Rage call PDM non legit, because they always had countries capable of retalling?

People get upset no matter what. Sofar this reset people have complained that Untags get hit too much then the same people complained about Lime and Emerald hitting eachother instead of the untags which is 100% the opposite of hitting the untags.

I quite honestly don't care who's legit and who's not. Right now I've received the help I need to hopefully get the placement that those in my alliance want. Oats has also got the help needed to get the place his alliance hope that he gets. Now it's up to us to try to get that spot, whichever one doesn't will feel like they let down their team on what their job was for the reset.

That's what it boils down to. Not what we want but what our team wants.

even just from the point of views of the alliances complaining.

Omega- Guys what? the first buy-out was done by them... was a pretty cool thing and worked out really well. They didn't think they'd get many high countries and wanted to show the game that they could play a role near the top and they did just that... and it worked :) Omega looked before this that they might be in membership trouble but it helped keep them strength to pull through, and... they're still around.

SoF- That first buyout country was run by the fuy who was president and founder of SoF. I don't think any part of him regrets that move, it was pretty fun and kinda cool that it happend back then. He always had very strong views on the game which are what helped mold SoF into the alliance they were and are still... It's helped them receive some ranks that reminded the community that they're not just War countries, that they can get ranks. This has helped them recruit.

LaF- A peaceful alliance almost every reset... they thrive on the placement of countries, it's common practice to help the few people who stand a legitimate chance of winning the reset to get higher positions. it's been that way for 13years. There's nothing wrong with that. By having the higher country positions they were always able to bring in new members and also became a place where people liked to retire to grow in peace and live up to the legacy the ranks gave. it helped thier alliance.

I haven't been around for so long that alot of the newer alliances I don't know much about... but I'd venture to say best on comments and insults that they have similar things in their histories.

Just remember you're clicking ALLIANCE when you enter this game. If you want a 100% solo experience, there's a different button to press.

^that

LaF has never run aid chains, inter farming, organised buy outs, land trading etc, laf's aiding comes down to last minute t10 battles. Which for years every alliance would try and make sure there guy was t10 and laf was forced to battle that with its own aiding. As that faded away less and less laffers were actually willing to participate in that to the point where its very rarely done, unless its felt that the guy being pushed out doesnt have a legit finish pretty much.

For me its quite simple though, the type of netgaining going on now, is worthless, it doesnt prove anything what so ever, frankly every realy netgaining alliance should be fs'ing anyone doing inter farming, aid chains, and anything of the sort.

^ that

so according to mr. silver then the best way to gauge an alliance is to use anw, not individual top 10.

Yeah, I don't regret the buyout back in 99 or 00? Whenever it was. It was really fun. :) It was something I had wanted to do for a while and when I got a chance I jumped on it. I could have received the buyout last set, but I chose not to take part. It was a one time thing for me. I prefer to compete with myself for my highest nw. I don't really care what everyone else is doing. This set my goal was 150M and I'll break it. I think next time we netgain I'm going to go for 175M. Whether that gives me first place or 50th, I don't care. I just want to keep improving.

can't really argue with that. By mr silvers logic the larger clans should just buyout to #1 every set to ruin the game for all the smaller netting clans. What competition is left if we all do market buyouts and fa and inter farming?

Odd, I seem to remember LaF aiding some of their countries into the top 10 back in E:2025...think it was the Jan 14-Mar 16, 2009 reset. That was after several resets of IX tagkilling LaF. None of the countries that LaF had FAed into the top 10 had a chance in hell of making it in there on their own, primarily because most of LaF started late in the set (they were waiting to see if IX would hit them again). I remember that mostly because some EVO countries were pushed out of the top 10 by LaF-aided countries.




Anyways, to the people that keep saying "It's the ALLIANCE server" and "it's supposed to be a GROUP effort", answer this:


Why do you keep saying "It's the ALLIANCE server" and "it's supposed to be a GROUP effort", when the effects of what you are advocating only result in INDIVIDUAL success?

SS: Correct, there aren't Mass aiding co-ordinated efforts.

Very few alliances doses efforts but having an ally FA you 400m bushels or quit and give some land, have a member run untagged to grab.. That's all still "help"

If I added up all te laf and sof finishes I knew of that got help just on a rough low ball estimate I'm already over 60 countries ... Which is far lower than the actual amount as there would of been many I didn't know of on top of that I was gone for 5 years.

I just am tired of seeing posts from groups that do the exact same thing but are "sneakier" about it.

A number of people posting this in this thread about the evil's of land trading (as one for instance) are in alliances where a number of members participated in landtrading in a differenet way. Organizing with someone in another alliance to do a hit back and forth, even a few times through the set. I've even talked to a few of them.


to that other statement on if ANW is a true mark of an alliance... once again not really. members that are lower than a level usually get dropped or self delete. Other alliances have some excellent netgainers and a number of other members that like to run kill countries, thus messing over the numbers...

if I had to make my picks for alliances though... it would be as follows.


Best netgaining alliance/most skilled netgainers: LaF

Best fighting alliance: SoF

Best Bang for Buck (makes the most out of their membership): Omega

Best Overall alliance: SoF

but going back to my earlier bit.... these threads seem to be alot of alliances or people that have their left hand on a cookie from the jar and their right hand pointing a finger at someone else grabbing the chocolate chip one right next to the cookie they got.

That's what Elitez did for 3 years :)

that's why big 6 happened ;)

I don't think that's true. Most alliances who want to win ANW want to do so "legitimately" as well. If a player is inactive, they usually delete or are untagged well before the end of set. Occasionally loss of internet or travel during that time can cause this to be an issue, but even in a set not so long ago, a player logged in to see that the set was ending, saw his NW was bringing down the team ANW and detagged himself. Of course, that alliance (I can't remember who it was, Omega maybe?) asked him to retag because that's not how anyone wants to win ANW. It is a team effort and no one gets left behind.

Coming from the perspective of EVO, that's definitely true or old Foo would not be the veteran that he is with his continual Rep destocks =P

Legitimate is what the social norm says it is. If everyone agrees that such and such is taboo then that's how it is; it's not necessary to be based upon logic. Specifically, I think a lot of people make good points about it being an "ALLIANCE" server and so anything goes. However, the counter-argument which has previously been posted (and which I stand by) is that if that's the case, then the largest alliances will always get the top spots, simply because there are more of them to do FA/buyouts/land-trading. I don't think most netters want to play for that sort of competition.

I disagree with the RD land-trading, but in some sense, I appreciate that they chose to send one single country to the top. It allows more alliances to have their chance at some top 10 spots as well.

As far as hitting an alliance's own members before they quit, I do think there is a fine line. I did it once when I joined mid-set and someone else was quitting at about the same time. It allowed me to get a semi-competitive country by endset. I haven't done it since, and I don't think that I would, mainly for my own personal competition (much as Helmet referred to).

However, when a player farms an alliance mate early on in the set for significant gains (especially when that other member is then deleted and not re-instated, even if he could've been and did not want to be) then it looks like poor form. Of course if you have 7k more acres a week before everyone else teching at a huge profit you're going to have a significant leg up on everyone.

So I guess my position is that there is some general rules for judging legitimacy and it has to do with what allows for the most competition between players. Of course it involves plenty of help from your alliance as mentioned before, but there is also a large amount of skill that is necessary for this game. Some of it is being able to optimize via calculations or intuitively knowing how to judge market trends or even the skill of landgrabbing for the most efficient gains (which does not have to be accomplished by farming) but that is the skill of the game which people want to compare to others.

What skill is there in knowing the break and hitting your own alliance mates to take advantage of a mechanism in the game used to encourage interaction between alliances? What skill is there to have someone set the market conditions to be the most efficient for you? (There's a reason why insider-trading is illegal in the real world...) And of course, what started this whole post, what skill is there to gain ANW for your alliance if you drop everyone but the top? There isn't any. And that's why I, and I think many others, would quickly lose interest if the direction of the server leads to that.

Probably, this is something that the two sides will not agree on. Maybe people will war over their beliefs in the legitimacy of netting, but unfortunately most netters aren't looking to war for sets on end, due to the time constraints involved as well as the fact that it would not be enjoyable; and what's the point in losing half your membership in a multi-set war that would probably decide nothing?

So I hope that this very long message will help some to understand the position that many of us have on this subject. Thanks to all who decided to read this wall of text.

Yep, according to evoGT, WARLORDe (#166) did sell a lot of bushels at $54 before he bought that chunk. Too many transactions to count, and most of those transactions are relatively small. It took over a day for it all to sell. His last sell-off for what I think was his last batch was this:

Jan/13/11 15:39:27 <> Bushels $54 14,467,775 0 $-24,595 $-28,502 $-26,939


...before a different country started selling theirs. Not sure if #166 had another batch to sell before he bought that 367m batch at $53...it takes a while to track everything down heh.

Looks like it is even higher than what corfu thought it would be.

On a side note, why is that when I make a longish post, then Nuk posts, the thread tends to die. Is it something I said? =P

HIGHROCK YOU SUCK

p.s.

Nice resell you fart crack

LOL i just posted a new thread.

Curse whomever FAd me out of the top 25 >_<

oh eff I forgot to do my last little jump. Missed the t100 cuz of it...great reset everyone nice to see t100 take more than 100M!

I think it was your own alliance? not 100% sure though

nah none of my own guys passed me :P