Oil has been appearing at $21 for Standing Orders in the Express game for at least several sets. I watched it today when I saw that about 800k oil barrels had been sold near the start of the set at $21. This appeared in the in game market history.

I put my own standing order in at exactly $21. It scored three times, once for 1 million barrels. I think it gives exactly the amount of the SO. I made a nice profit on that with it selling at $192. I was watching #market.express. The transaction didn't appear at all.

This bug/ exploit could explain why some players are amazingly lucky every set. I don't think this is a random bonus that has been programmed into the game on purpose so I thought I would expose it.

Here is the early ingame oil history:

Time start Time end Min sold price Max sold price Avg price Total volume
Jan 1, 17:00 Jan 1, 18:00 $99 $99 $99.00 11,000
Jan 1, 19:00 Jan 1, 20:00 $50 $50 $50.00 21,320
Jan 1, 21:00 Jan 1, 22:00 $29 $29 $29.00 152,901
Jan 1, 23:00 Jan 2, 00:00 $70 $70 $70.00 39,321
Jan 2, 00:00 Jan 2, 01:00 $70 $70 $70.00 3000
Jan 2, 01:00 Jan 2, 02:00 $21 $74 $21.82 809,468
Jan 2, 03:00 Jan 2, 04:00 $72 $72 $72.00 8110
Jan 2, 04:00 Jan 2, 05:00 $72 $72 $72.00 47,031

Here is a copy of a few items in my country's market news:

Current Time: 02:49:07 Jan 4, 2014
Next turn: 2.9 mins
The reset ends in 45.2 hours.

9.6 hours ago
You purchased 185,275 Oil Barrels at $21 for $4,124,222 via standing order.
Your standing order was cancelled due to lack of funds.


23.3 hours ago
You sold 25,000 Oil Barrels for $4,512,000.
175,000 Oil Barrels remain for sale.

1.1 days ago
You purchased 1,000,000 Oil Barrels at $21 for $22,260,000 via standing order.
No more Oil Barrels remain in your order.

Well spotted Getafix sir, I've seen also and confirmed. Stop the fluff. (Other) people are spending all their weekend at this server. It doesn't deserve to have clear exploits given the time commitment put in by some of our keener members.

Can we call him Dr Getafix now? (Dr Holmes)

the transaction didnt appear at all on #market.express? are you sure? it records every transaction, even those that sold to the server gets recorded too.

I'm sure.

I was online in the game when the 1m barrels were bought.. I was just thinking about buying something else with that money. I was logged on to market.express all through the set, logged off automatically once. I checked for the transaction up and down, and waited for it in case it was delayed. It did not appear at all.

Here is the entire Oil Barrel in game market history up to now. Note the multiple appearances of $21 oil.

Current good: Oil Barrels
Current time: Jan 4, 21:44
Time start Time end Min sold price Max sold price Avg price Total volume
Jan 1, 21:00 Jan 1, 22:00 $29 $29 $29.00 152,901
Jan 1, 23:00 Jan 2, 00:00 $70 $70 $70.00 39,321
Jan 2, 00:00 Jan 2, 01:00 $70 $70 $70.00 3000
Jan 2, 01:00 Jan 2, 02:00 $21 $74 $21.82 809,468
Jan 2, 03:00 Jan 2, 04:00 $72 $72 $72.00 8110
Jan 2, 04:00 Jan 2, 05:00 $72 $72 $72.00 47,031
Jan 2, 05:00 Jan 2, 06:00 $65 $65 $65.00 75,000
Jan 2, 06:00 Jan 2, 07:00 $72 $72 $72.00 50,000
Jan 2, 07:00 Jan 2, 08:00 $72 $72 $72.00 23,500
Jan 2, 08:00 Jan 2, 09:00 $48 $70 $64.51 20,051
Jan 2, 09:00 Jan 2, 10:00 $50 $70 $54.27 226,724
Jan 2, 10:00 Jan 2, 11:00 $70 $70 $70.00 21,000
Jan 2, 11:00 Jan 2, 12:00 $70 $70 $70.00 133,385
Jan 2, 12:00 Jan 2, 13:00 $70 $70 $70.00 55,000
Jan 2, 13:00 Jan 2, 14:00 $70 $70 $70.00 28,315
Jan 2, 14:00 Jan 2, 15:00 $68 $240 $145.69 294,100
Jan 2, 15:00 Jan 2, 16:00 $225 $240 $225.00 27,004
Jan 2, 16:00 Jan 2, 17:00 $200 $200 $200.00 24,000
Jan 2, 17:00 Jan 2, 18:00 $200 $225 $201.13 111,000
Jan 2, 18:00 Jan 2, 19:00 $225 $225 $225.00 73,013
Jan 2, 19:00 Jan 2, 20:00 $225 $240 $239.27 38,005
Jan 2, 20:00 Jan 2, 21:00 $220 $240 $237.39 191,346
Jan 2, 21:00 Jan 2, 22:00 $219 $240 $221.58 57,000
Jan 2, 22:00 Jan 2, 23:00 $219 $240 $220.17 144,763
Jan 2, 23:00 Jan 3, 00:00 $75 $240 $131.34 472,409
Jan 3, 00:00 Jan 3, 01:00 $21 $220 $32.68 3,198,989
Jan 3, 01:00 Jan 3, 02:00 $21 $220 $63.77 1,528,415
Jan 3, 02:00 Jan 3, 03:00 $197 $211 $209.46 384,138
Jan 3, 03:00 Jan 3, 04:00 $192 $194 $193.20 100,000
Jan 3, 04:00 Jan 3, 05:00 $139 $192 $168.55 113,000
Jan 3, 05:00 Jan 3, 06:00 $139 $139 $139.00 554,745
Jan 3, 06:00 Jan 3, 07:00 $139 $200 $174.48 411,939
Jan 3, 07:00 Jan 3, 08:00 $140 $140 $140.00 456,100
Jan 3, 08:00 Jan 3, 09:00 $140 $140 $140.00 264,880
Jan 3, 09:00 Jan 3, 10:00 $140 $140 $140.00 8468
Jan 3, 10:00 Jan 3, 11:00 $120 $140 $135.39 192,291
Jan 3, 11:00 Jan 3, 12:00 $120 $139 $135.80 484,278
Jan 3, 12:00 Jan 3, 13:00 $140 $140 $140.00 320,000
Jan 3, 13:00 Jan 3, 14:00 $105 $140 $135.37 80,680
Jan 3, 14:00 Jan 3, 15:00 $101 $138 $107.43 223,554
Jan 3, 15:00 Jan 3, 16:00 $21 $138 $28.68 3,465,451
Jan 3, 16:00 Jan 3, 17:00 $110 $130 $125.14 1,501,680
Jan 3, 17:00 Jan 3, 18:00 $21 $126 $47.62 1,764,016
Jan 3, 18:00 Jan 3, 19:00 $110 $111 $110.81 759,559
Jan 3, 19:00 Jan 3, 20:00 $110 $110 $110.00 456,585
Jan 3, 20:00 Jan 3, 21:00 $105 $110 $108.85 506,277
Jan 3, 21:00 Jan 3, 22:00 $99 $109 $102.70 717,407
Jan 3, 22:00 Jan 3, 23:00 $99 $99 $99.00 519,843
Jan 3, 23:00 Jan 4, 00:00 $95 $99 $97.05 488,709
Jan 4, 00:00 Jan 4, 01:00 $99 $99 $99.00 383,000
Jan 4, 01:00 Jan 4, 02:00 $98 $99 $98.77 456,925
Jan 4, 02:00 Jan 4, 03:00 $99 $99 $99.00 755,496
Jan 4, 03:00 Jan 4, 04:00 $66 $99 $96.07 806,617
Jan 4, 04:00 Jan 4, 05:00 $98 $99 $98.92 1,073,837
Jan 4, 05:00 Jan 4, 06:00 $98 $99 $98.82 514,582
Jan 4, 06:00 Jan 4, 07:00 $99 $99 $99.00 580,005
Jan 4, 07:00 Jan 4, 08:00 $99 $99 $99.00 444,445
Jan 4, 08:00 Jan 4, 09:00 $72 $99 $90.15 1,320,926
Jan 4, 09:00 Jan 4, 10:00 $99 $99 $99.00 331,019
Jan 4, 10:00 Jan 4, 11:00 $99 $99 $99.00 484,000
Jan 4, 11:00 Jan 4, 12:00 $99 $150 $104.31 960,021
Jan 4, 12:00 Jan 4, 13:00 $150 $150 $150.00 299,220
Jan 4, 13:00 Jan 4, 14:00 $150 $150 $150.00 338,746
Jan 4, 14:00 Jan 4, 15:00 $121 $150 $126.34 719,935
Jan 4, 15:00 Jan 4, 16:00 $180 $250 $216.00 337,807
Jan 4, 16:00 Jan 4, 17:00 $130 $250 $216.15 531,755
Jan 4, 17:00 Jan 4, 18:00 $175 $250 $238.22 472,810
Jan 4, 18:00 Jan 4, 19:00 $165 $209 $194.89 501,858
Jan 4, 19:00 Jan 4, 20:00 $150 $189 $172.84 1,429,979
Jan 4, 20:00 Jan 4, 21:00 $150 $150

H2[0] and MmixM have been logged on to market.express for the whole set along with me. Show me a copy of any $21 oil transaction. You can't. There aren't any.

I stand corrected:

<Market>: Jan/04/2014 23:29:00 -- Barrels -- $21 -- 54 -- SO: Yes
<Market>: Jan/04/2014 23:29:00 -- Barrels -- $21 -- 1,000,000 -- SO: Yes
<Market>: Jan/04/2014 23:29:00 -- Barrels -- $21 -- 2,000,000 -- SO: Yes
<Market>: Jan/04/2014 23:29:00 -- Barrels -- $21 -- 383,976 -- SO: Yes
<Market>: Jan/04/2014 23:29:33 -- Bushels -- $47 -- 153,422 -- SO: No -- Remaining: 7,444,993 Bushels

Better go sell my barrels..

*runs off*

It should be easy to ask Tellarion to check if all those $21 oil come from the same player.

should it? That would be a great idea. Whoever is doing this if it is a person is playing irrationally. I still think its a bug and its been around for a long time. If its a person one has to suspect collusion. If its a bug, people are cheating by taking advantage set after set and not reporting it.

I still don't think there was a transaction in the market news for my million barrels, and maybe someone is fluffing with us after I reported this. $22 bushels are appearing too all of a sudden.

With all the discussion about cheating, and accusations, and bullfluff about tech leaching and here is this $21 oil sitting right under our noses.

[09:53:51] <Market> Jan/05/2014 01:54:00 -- Barrels -- $21 -- 2,281,698 -- SO: Yes
[07:39:52] <Market> Jan/04/2014 23:40:00 -- Barrels -- $21 -- 200,000 -- SO: Yes
[07:39:52] <Market> Jan/04/2014 23:40:00 -- Barrels -- $21 -- 2,122,319 -- SO: Yes
[07:28:53] <Market> Jan/04/2014 23:29:00 -- Barrels -- $21 -- 54 -- SO: Yes
[07:28:53] <Market> Jan/04/2014 23:29:00 -- Barrels -- $21 -- 1,000,000 -- SO: Yes
[07:28:54] <Market> Jan/04/2014 23:29:00 -- Barrels -- $21 -- 2,000,000 -- SO: Yes
[07:28:55] <Market> Jan/04/2014 23:29:00 -- Barrels -- $21 -- 383,976 -- SO: Yes

It sure does come out.

From what I know $21 barrels are the cheapest you can list to sell to another player. Another $ below would have been sold to the server. So obviously someone is cheating.

Unfortunatly both tella and I cannot track that.
I am pointing qzjul to this thread when I see him.
Thank you Getafix for coming to me :)

How would it be a bug? The game wouldn't *make up* oil to put on the market.

Somebody is selling it =/

OK fine then. So will you give the Moderators the tools they need to identify market cooperation?

They won't, cause it isn't against the rules.

This is as significant a cheat as running a multi

qzjul already knows about it and his fix (instead of raising the floor price) was "well why doesn't everyone just put in SOs" :/

Well thats what I did last set, and I picked up 9m barrels at $21, and went on an attack rampage and didn't even try and came 5th, so its pretty stupid.

Yah it seems like it would be easy to just raise the floor/auto-buy price and fix the problem.

There's probably a reason why it isn't fixed.

We're three days into the next set and not a drop of $21 oil has appeared. How about that?

So say i raise the price floor to $22... then people transfer at $23, and you complain; so i put it to $24; repeat


next thing you know, the price floor is OVER NINE THOUSAND! and you're all complaining that oiler is too strong =/

At the moment the problem seems to be fixed. Its not a bug, someone was selling it. This raised awareness about the issue and lots of people now have SO's in at $21, (and $42 etc.). And I think the mods are more aware of the scope of the market coordination problem and I hope they will get the tools they need to spot market cheats who transfer funds from one country to another on purpose. Those people have gone into hiding right now or they are doing some other sneaky thing for the time being. But they're not caught.

It's obvious that the admins and mods don't want to out the people who are breaking the rules on express server.

Just leave it be.

When I'm around I spend 80% of my EE time playing Express and 150 weekends of it or whatever qualifies me, I think, to have something to say about the cheats who have fluffed me and other good players over time after time. I'm not leaving it be. I'm satisfied with the result on this subject for now. And I'm glad to see that a number of countries were turned into parking lots this set.

And Forgotten, your name does not appear in the top 100 player list in Express. So unless you are one of the unlinked accounts there maybe your opinion is completely irrelevant.

qzjul why not just put the price floor at $55? I'm ok if people transfer at $56, they can make $5-$12 profit / barrel for all I care. and put food to $27 or $28 or something. It doesnt make sense to put the price floor so low?

why doesn't it make sense? We could put the floor at $54 and the ceiling at $56, but then why not just eliminate the public market entirely?

The public market should be as open as is practical; we only have a price floor to stop the most egregious abuses, and also to provide a secondary strategy of liquidating at the last minute if you *really* need to for some things....

and likewise, we only have a ceiling to stop the most egregious abuses, and also there needs to be a cap for programmatical reasons (we have to store the price as *some* form of integer, so < $32k is best; but given there's a PM price, it makes sense to make it some multiple of that to prevent the most serious abuses again)

Or, looking at it differently...

Why is the floor $21? Why not lower? Why is there a floor at all?

Wouldn't $21 oil qualify? You can make $100 profit/barrel on that pretty much automatically. 5m barrels * 100 = 500,000,000 free money.

I think the problem is not so much the mechanics of the market. The problem is the intention to cheat by transferring assets from one country to another. Multies, land farms, DR abuse etc. are all forms of this. The mods have tools to look at players when suspicions are raised for those forms of cheating but they don't have the ability to see who put what goods on the market or who bought them.

The players can stop this form of market cheating by putting up our own SO's to some extent. But the mods should have the power to research this form of cheating. Thats the solution that I recommend.

How can you make that automatically? I thought the PM floor was something like 50 or 60 ?



That means more work on part of the mods; on the other hand, players have a vested interest in countering this activity by putting up SO's for two reasons:
1) It stops the transferring of goods
2) It makes you money!!

I agree with you completely about the benefits of SO's, qzjul. But there are ways to overcome the market and cheat. H2o pointed out how these methods can work in an Express thread a few days ago.

It may seem like more work for the mods but I think you will find that if you ask them, they would like to have another tool in their repertoire. I have read threads by Warster and chatted with galleri that say as much.

So I still argue that the mods should be able to see market data about who sold and bought what.

Question : Can a country put things on the market, then kill itself through game mechanics, would those goods STAY on the market?

how do you 'kill itself' ? self delete?

Yes. When those goods sell, the proceeds goes to the dead country, and its NW will change.

tax to 0% and then running enuf turns and voila, pci has dropped to 0 and country is dead.

hm i don't think PCI drops to zero from running tax at 0%... running out of money can, if that's what you mean

llaar killed himself in earth2025 running turns with 0 tax, although he had low pop and tried to get pop back.

Your country was destroyed because its pci reached zero.

It takes me about 280 turns at tax rate 0% to reach 0 PCI, you only reach 0 PCI is u run out of money

Notice, gentle reader, how a discussion can be hijacked and whittled away into nothingness with a few well placed technical irrelevancies.

TTT:

"So I still argue that the mods should be able to see market data about who sold and bought what."

I did check, they do. I'm not making mod market tools any time soon, that's a lot of work that would be better spent doing other upgrades first...

OK qzjul, thanks for your response. We'll make do as best we can in the meantime :) I'm glad it wasn't a bug.