This is a troll thread. LaFFers stay off!

You're a troll thread! Bring Eug to visit this thread!

Silver, that makes no sense. Land traders have distinct advantage in turns used to gain land.

It's not my problem that you cannot defend your land.


locket, I don't even know what to say to you anymore.

It took you 52 posts to realize it's a troll thread?

http://cdn.meme.li/...nces/300x300/38914597.jpg

Forgotten you have been a whiny fluff ever since I left Laf. Get over it. Lots of people have left over the time you have been there. Perhaps someday I'd consider coming back but not if you act like a fluffing manchild all the time.

And that advantage in gaining land is taken away by the fact the land has to be rebuilt at FAR higher costs than it used to be. Even Xin's old estimates when this changes was made would completely imply that BF was better than trading.

And Pang this is not a troll thread. Why is a discussion thread suddenly considered a troll thread?

What can I say, I'm late to the party!

that is only true if you presume that enough land is readily available via bottomfeeding that bottomfeeders are capable of growing by the same acrage as a landtrader every day.

Bottomfeeding land hasn't been that readily available for years.

True which is why I commented above that maybe 5 or so people can do bottomfeeding which imo is an argument FOR trading. If everyone cant bottomfeed, and 95% of people couldnt WR farm, and no netter wants to support rampant topfeeding... what does that leave us with? I fully support bots to make bottomfeeding easier to do as long as the bots fight back too but for now this seems like a good solution to get people active and communicating with eachother.

locket -> i'm not against troll threads; i just know one when I see one :p

I also agree that the stance taken by LaF re landtrading has been pretty hypocritical over the last year, but SoF was by far worse than LaF if you want to start talking about "enforcing" anti-landtrading.

Yes but Sof just does it to get a war and there is nothing I can possibly argue with against that reasoning. I believe Silver summarized Scodes opinion of it above. He hasnt netted but has an opinion on it... which is odd :P

It's simple, landtrading means a scrub that has no idea what he is doing is equal to the top netgainers in the game that spend hours to squeeze every bit of nw they can out of their countries. That is stupid.

The idea that landtrading has been nerfed is dumb, the only reason people think it has been nerfed is because the people doing it still arnt as good as the top tier players of the game.

If any top tier play in the game were to landtrade 500m nw is entirely reachable after the "nerf", and that is just plain ridiculous.

How are they equal SS? If some PDM guy trades and I trade I will win. If I trade and you tech you will win. Have you not looked at the changes? Are you actually trying to imply it hasnt been nerfed?

50000 $251,046 $151,500 Thats just the difference at 50k acres. The other funny thing about your 500mill exageration is that it is in direct opposition to what another top laffer has claimed a trader can get under the new system.

Also if you look at the top ten in the set that Laf traded the best players still came out on top. There were no traders like Xin's skill that missed the top ten. I believe SG won the set and he isnt an undeserving winner. Everyone there was still the best. Just because the method was different didnt change the fact that the best still got there. And now with the nerf there are other strats that can get there too.

locket

I don't represent LaF, but if I have a say in any recruitment matter, you are no longer welcome in LaF because you keep publicly trying to spin things against LaF, as well as your behaviour in, in your words, a whiny fluff.

I'm merely stating the facts that Land Trading is easy fluff, I can probably win 1A last set if I was land trading. And that's a bad sign.

locket, you are a troll, thus, a thread you make, is a troll thread.

when LaF land traded, we were dipping our toes into it, and we forced the admins to FIX it. Could you imagine what LaF can do if we were to actually care and determine how to land trade to the max capabilities?

And I will say this again to building costs,

1) it's the same amount cost per building whether you trade to 80k, or bottom feed to 80k. but trading means you have a fluff ton of more turns.

2) it's not my fault you can't keep your land.

locket

I don't represent LaF, but if I have a say in any recruitment matter, you are absolutely welcome in LaF because you were a fun guy to play and chat with!

hope you come back to the dark side soon.

As for the 'pacting' issue.

That is between FRs. Not an issue that ANY alliance should discuss on AT.

If LaF's leadership determines that a certain term is required within a pact that they are willing to sign, then I stand behind it 125%. If it means I have to go to war over it, to ensure that I get my sporadic T100 finishes, then so be it. Because it will mean that these terms I stand behind, will ensure the others who care enough to keep trying, to keep pushing for those top finishes.

All of PDM's netters that could actually compete for the top 10 have quit the game or left for Laf, so it pretty well moot for us now. PDM won't tolerate wholesale bottom feeding within our ranks, so we have essentially given up on trying to competitively net as an alliance.

So, to 10-12 no-life Laffers that got so butt hurt that they might actually have to start working again to stay in the top 10, well you can have it back. Enjoy playing your identical land-farm bottom-feeding techers where he who has the fewest earthquakes wins.

The point is no one good wants to landtrade, the same way no one good wants to all explore. It takes 0 skill, it completely takes away from any aspect of netgaining that is worth while.

I could give a fluff about he actual nw that i take rank 1 with, the matter is taking rank 1 using skill. All landtrading does is increase the numbers while decreasing the amount of skill required to achieve those numbers. Landtrading completely removes any element of skill from the grabbing portion of the game.

Ahh so you are better than SG I see considering he won that set. Good to hear! Trading land means you have to build a lot of the land more than once. Perhaps that is why you wouldnt beat SG then eh? Maybe you'd have known that. And you have fluffed at me even in private conversations since I left. Not your fault I cant keep my land eh? As I said above I had the top grabbing country early in the set till I had to stop for war and I kept it all ;)

I don't pick anti Laf stuff. I simply state my opinion. I happen to be in opposition to a couple of Laf policies and decisions lately. I also defended them in a couple of situations with Tella and such. I didnt hesitate to state my opinions when I was in Laf so why stop now? They havnt changed.

I am also not trying to specifically talk about the pact terms. I am trying to discuss trading and trying to argue for it. I am not here to put down any alliance at all. I simply wish to try to get a talk about game function going. I'd love for a "new" and not unbalanced way for land not to be chased out of the game.

Here's a fun fact,

those top 10-15 LaF netters? They don't hang around on IRC all day and calculate math all day.

They know exactly what it takes and how to achieve it, cause they have been doing it for years. Some of them probably stay logged in 30 minutes max a day, maybe log in 2-3 times a day to grab/sell.

I can tell you that the most successful netters in LaF, are some how, also the most successful people in their careers as well.

Cause we know our fluff, and do it well

I'd say it has more than bottomfeeding either way having done both. And I think some of the top netters would enjoy landtrading sometimes. Why bother stopping those who want to or arguing that they shouldnt? If you play a techer or a trader I guarantee your techer will end up higher as a techer.. so are you just mad that someone who is going to lose to you will lose less bad? Come on dude -_-

Your skill will still win a set if you play best. You wont lose to a well played trader unless you dont deserve 1st place anyways!

My skill will, but the point is anyone playing 2min/day can give me a run for my money, by knowing basic maths. A small suicide on me and i lose rank 1, that is dumb. Anyone that isnt highly skilled does not deserve to complete for top ranks, and any system where anyone that knows basic maths can compete for top ranks is something i'd be opposed to. There is no risk to landtrading, there is no market anticipation, there is no element of skill involved what so ever, its just number crunching, why should that be rewarded?

What is the risk in bottomfeeding beyond a few missiles? If you are hitting all tankers or people with big stocks to retal or suicide you then you are an idiot and dont deserve to win. Why did previous bottomfeeder winners deserved to win beyond the fact that they camped targets better than the rest? Meh this is probably a waste of time

This shows how much of a noob you are.
A suicider doesn't suicide you when you hit them, they plan, and wait, and hit you when you destock.

A suicider can pick the first person that hits them for 15a, stock for the entire set, and suicide just before his target reaches his land goal or begin destocking.

That, is the risk that no land trader has. It's like Canada, we don't have an army, we don't have a intelligence agency worth a penny, and we don't have any missile defense. But we sure are big with lots of empty land and buildings sure cost a fluffton in major cities.


Again, you can spend your entire life posting pro-land trading.
But it doesn't mean anything, you can spin it anyway you like, but unless you are in a leadership role in RD (where you are playing), there is absolutely no purpose in posting it here on AT.

In fact, because of your posting, I bet that it does affect the situation negatively because you keep trying to put LaF in a bad light, the big bad wolf that is preventing you from getting good finishes.

Other LaF veterans can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in LaF, we play to win together as an alliance. We don't care about what you think, we play and care for our family.

1. 500mil? LOL
2.landtrading takes far more than 2min a day to do it properly. The ones that did well on it you will notice had to do a lot of posting, arranging, communicating with other players..if you look at the shared landtrade board you will notice the playera that did well put in a decent amount of effort and it was player interaction.

I'd say that effort is more fun, interesting, challenging, than getting a pal to run a landfarms, getting a text notification on untagged land gains, or setting alarms to come online after dr

Bottom feeding 'skill' is just attention to detail or finding a step above others.. Nothings changed in that aspect in years.. The only difference between now and 2000-2002 is now there's less countries so you have to be faster.

So attention to detail comes ahead, allows those who rather play in larger block periods rather than a few 30 second blocks throughout the day to compete.

If you don't want to play as a trader that's fine.. It's your choice. I don't see you enjoying playing a communist or an oiler either. Landtrading is good for extroverts and bottom feeding is good for introverts

Both bottom feeders and traders carry light defence, in fact all netgained carry light defence.. it's why topfeed policies were invented. Military expense costs make it that way

If your argument is players need to defend land... I bet I could grab you at any point until end game jump unless you're not trying to net and cashing/techibg/exploring out on 50m net or something silly

I'm done replying to you Forgotten. You are such a child.

Sodawater seemed likely to be able to get to about 300M last set before SoF killed him. That's not really an indication of how much it was nerfed after the changes until some of the laffers decide to try it once more and compare it with the 430+m finishes previously.

Bottomfeeding on the other hand is probably good for 350m on a decent set I believe. I finished with 273m (I did get ~8M nw worth of FA after the late retals on me) last set in a war with PDM where I lost about 600 turns. Was hit twice at the end of my stocking phase for $2+b cash and a reduction of $5m/turn cashing over the remaining 500 turns or so (this is the risk we talked about in some of the above post with regards to bottomfeeding). Landtrading countries face no (or low) such risk of retaliation.

Techers won't see another 360m set like the set Xin won unless we see another set with tech prices over $3500 for the bulk of the set. They are still good for about $250m finish in average sets.

The best all-explorer will barely reach 200m nw in a good set.

A list of the previous winner's strategies is shown below for info:
Round 21 - bottom feeding casher (273m)
Round 20 - landtrading farmer (436m)
Round 19 - landtrading farmer (270m)
Round 18 - camping techer (366m)
Round 17 - landtrading farmer (271m)
Round 16 - bottom feeding farmer (269m)
Round 15 - landtrading farmer (283m)
Round 14 - landtrading farmer (283m)
Round 13 - bottom feeding farmer (223m)
Round 12 - camping techer (273m)
Round 11 - camping techer (321m)
Round 10 - wargaining farmer (281m)
Round 9 - camping techer (315m)

So to summarize:
a) land trading - nerfed but not quite sure by how much.

Risk involved - LOW (you are only susceptible to suiciders)
Skills involved - MEDIUM (wouldn't say no skill's required. You still need to know what you're doing to do well.)
Time involved - LOW to MEDIUM
-----------------------------------------------------------

b) bottom feeding - I don't think anyone has maximised the potential of bottomfeeding prior to the changes last set (looking at the past winning strategies/NW). If 350m is doable with the new changes, I would say 450m might be achievable in the past. That's just a conjecture which will never be proven though.

Risk involved - HIGH (people you bottom feed can retal late in the set or they could missile/bomb buildings you a couple of times as retals).
Skills involved - MEDIUM to HIGH (not so much about the grabbing part, but rather the destocking portion).
Time involved - MEDIUM (no need to camp for land after all the camping techers stop grabbing, but need time to do a proper destock)
---------------------------------------------------------------

c) camping techer - not much changes after the new building costs are implemented. Still able to compete in a good tech set. I see 350m as a cap for it now.

Risk involved - MEDIUM (since they grab less)
Skills involved - MEDIUM to HIGH (need to know when to grab and how to stock and sell down etc)
Time involved - HIGH (camping takes a fluffload of time and monitoring the market to time your destock is also a pain in the arse)
---------------------------------------------------------------

All these strategies are equally capable of winning I think. So I'm not going to say no to landtrading, but that's just my personal view and I do not represent LaF =)

An edit I'd make there would be the landtraders that do well have to do a lot of communicating and be involved in the game...

Instead of it being things doing with database it is sending ingame messages, finding people on irc or in websites.

Any landtraders that puts in a minimal time will fail.

Forgotten -> don't forget that Canada got it's land by Britain landtrading with France.

This is by far the dumbest post here. This is your narrow minded classification of a suicider? You obviously have ZERO experience with suiciding since you obviously know nothing about it. And you have the gall to call someone else a noob? Since you have redefined the term, noob, you my friend are therefore a fluffturd.

Thanks for the thought out reply Oldman. That is what I was looking for. Why do you say destocking is harder for bottomfeeding than trading though? Seems to me they have similar options and decisions to make.

Mr Silver what you reply to my post is incorrect, but thanks for assuming.

Destocking is easier with more land

When have you put a top ten country either in earth2025, Jolt or EE? Just wondering Kiwi.

Yes, I have never suicided anyone before, unlike you, with experience?

However, if I was to suicide someone, I'd damage them the most, when they are stocking/destocking, a long time later than when they grabbed me. When they least expect it.


keep circle jerking for land trading,

shouldnt you post this in your own LAF forum or LAF/RD shared forum? it seems you are the only ones discussing about this topic

Good point Ikkaku, would spare us some public embarrassment also.

(I'm looking at you Forgotten; Mr "bottomfeeders need to build as many buildings as landtraders"... Epic fail conclusion/troll...)

LaF are making me want to land-trade so bad.

I WANT YOU LAF - IN AND AROUND MY MOUTH. COME ON BABY! CRY ABOUT THE INJUSTICES OF "LANDTRADING" SOME MORE. I JUST LOVE IT WHEN YOU TALK DIRTY

That's what I get for retiring. Now ss can say that no one good wants to play all-explore. Still not going to get me to unretire, though.

Congratulations for missing the point, but to answer your question never.

10/10 - Would hire this mouth again!

lol

^+1

So you want to help enforce something you never participated in ever, yet, you want to troll AT like you did when you lead iMagNum. If you never netgained, you dont know wtf you are talking about. Go back to your sheep stables and let the big boys handle real business.

*fewer turns
*fewer grabs

Sorry, I had to :(

How do landtraders not carry the exact same risks? What a silly thing to say.

You know, the other thing about trading is it makes you a much bigger target... Let's say you're around 50k and you grab another person around 50k. You get lots of awesome land, and then suddenly you're one of the top countries for land.

Now you get hit by people who see big numbers without coordinating with you. Oh fluff, all that ezpz, gentlemanly trading is put on hold for days so you can retal and rebuild 10k+ acres. Not to mention spending 600 turns on CS because you're a dict and have fluffty bpt.

Anyone who has seriously participated in trading can tell you that's it's not as simple and straightforward as people are making it seem like here. It's not all lovey-dovey and hand holding. Aside from a few exceptions, most traders are NOT trying to make it super balanced for both sides. It's not win:win, it's more like win a little: win more.

Trading carries the same risks that bottomfeeding does. In fact, most bottomfeeders have much higher military than the average trader. Sure, you might not have to deal with missile spam from that untagged country you've been farming every day for a week, but if you can't defend yourself from missiles, then you don't deserve the land(oh crap, that argument applies to literally every country on the server!!)

+1

There are tradeoffs for both bottom feeding and land trading.. I just don't get it why everyone makes such a big fuss out of it..

Not my problem they can't/don't want to defend hits!

If a landtrader gets topfed, can he get the land back? most definitely.

if a bottom feeder gets topfed, can he get the land back? most likely not.