I'm starting to see this as a nomral thing.

C1 (Tag 1) --> C2 (Tag 1)
C1 (Tag 1) --> C2 (Tag 1)
C2 (Tag 1) --> C1 (Tag 2)
C1 (Tag 1) --> C2 (Tag 1)
C1 (Tag 1) --> C2 (Tag 1)

Ares has included Two-Stepping and Reverse Two-Stepping in our retal policy. We are about to include Multi-Stepping in as well.

Our retal policy can be found at:
http://www.AresAftermath.com/ee
Our site will be moved near the end of the set, but I will make an announcement when that happens.

We will start retalling all countries involved in any Two-Step.

If you want to self farm, then do so. If you want to play the grab strat, then do that. Mixing the two should not be considered acceptable.

This is confusing. Who said you put algebra into your retal policy?!

so if newscamper sees that some untagged/1 man tag grabs your tag and then grabs grabber both get retalled?

ya it isn't too clear. I mix both, and yes it can get confusing. so in the normal i grab you / you grab me retal lets say after my grab i end up with a 25000 ar country. i wait a day no retal. So i decide to grab some untagges and add another 3000 ar to the country then i grab it and take away 2000 ar from it leaving it 26000 ar. Then the next day you finally take the retal.

like that mixing ?

Ah now i see what you are saying.. my example is almost the opposite.

so country 1 farms country 2 down, country 2 hits outside tag for land then back to country 1 farming country 2 off again.

where does the retal come in ?

I think there should be a 24 hour window if you want to hit outside your tag (Before and after).

If you hit with a minnow country, there should be a respectful window for the clan that was hit to perform a retal, before that land is transfered to the whale country...

What I'm seeing as in the eg that I opened this thread with is a matter of a few minutes between all the hits. A country is draned of it's land, then strikes a country outside their tag, only to transfer the land back out seconds later... This is two stepping.

ZIP. I think we as clans and players of this game need to consider this problem. In a way, it's a little disrespectful to the country/clan/person that gets hit in this manner.

I think as a community we should consider what the proper retal should be, and add it to all of our retal policies.

I would like to suggest, giving my eg above, C2 (Tag1) only hit C1 (Tag 2) once, so that would be a 1:1 retal, however, I think also that the other country(ies) involved should also get 1:1.

The retal follows the land. This would have to be viewed case by case, as Marshal already suggested possible news campers.

really? how many ppl grab outside there own tag? a handful that arent being fluffs?

If I'm camping on the news bot, and see Clan 1 take a hit, and I go for easy fruit, and hit the attacker. I think I would also deserve to get hit as well. Considering that my grab would be a little disprespectful to the clan that was hit.

I noticed some clans doing this to IMP before we went to war. War changed any dealings with it but certainly I see it as a problem. Farming down your own countries and then grabbing big outside the tag for land. I would 2:1 retal and then take a stab at the C1 (Tag1) country to convince them to look for lang elsewhere.

so wheer we are headed is if A grab C, then B grab A..C shold get 2 retals?even though it could possibly be 3 tags alll included?

wont ever be able to get that to fly.

two/multi-stepping has happened in alliance since ....... but no1 has tried to retal that who grabbed orig. grabber.

only time it would seem fit to use two retals if it was the same string/person

Subby, IMP members were also doing it

sure if grabber grabs his/her own country to reduce orig. defender's returns but if untagged/etc grabs country a and country b grabs that untagged then it gets complicated.

Complicated indeed.
But it will cause people to watch who they hit a little closer. If you know you will be retaled for a grab you make on someone who just took land because it could be a possible two-step (Easy Fruit), it may become more of a deterrant then anything...

comming from the clan that retals the wrong country, no the wrong CLAN 4 times.......

if we wernt about to kill IMP your tag would already be dead.

im not gonna look to see who hit who when/if i go to grab land

im gonna look for best returns and take hit

if more then 1 country retals mine for a fair land grab. i will kill as many as i can

/me sees bright future for oilers

I think there should be a 24hr window before and after on self-trading if your going to hit outside your clan

I will pick my best country - who is in line with the target and take the retal , then i may shift the land where it needs to go, but not grab you then take the land away before you can get a retal in. I think we can all agree that is a no-no.

Mr. Ford mistakes happen...

ZIP, there is a differance between a random grab and a retal. We also consider what country would take most land in a retal. If a retal is made, then the land is "retal land". We're looking at people taking land in a dirty manor.

In terms of research of each hit, that is whoever is in charge of autherizing retals for each clan. I'll add a little more to the research, but overall, the policy itself will force the douchebags to not play like doughebags....

*square dances on Ares* :P

oh now he wants to talk dirty manor

There is a problem with grabbing outside the tag and then land-trading, because even if it makes you fatter, you're in DRs fairly deep.

And retals are obviously different.

However, having said that, it almost seems like this conversation is starting to work itself into making it illegal to land-grab someone who just land-grabbed others. That level of work is crazy. In one sense, I applaud anyone who can effectively land-grab on this server, because it takes more time. That's why I prefer land-trading because I don't have to spend an hour scouting good targets (of which, to be honest, there aren't a whole lot).

If I also had to look to make sure that all hits on a country I was hitting were already retalled, that's just ridiculous.

So if Ares is pushing for that, then you're crazy and you're going to have to selectively enforce that or be willing to war for it, because the larger land-grabbing clans aren't going to accept that.

yea, you would end up spending more time on checking news (and finding tgts which don't have retals hanging on their necks) than on actual grabbing.

I think he needs a French maid or a butler. ;)

why not asian maid?

Depends. Any maid will do a good job if you pay them well.

not based on yankee shows.

No, screw 'Yankee' shows, I believe if you do a good job, you deserve to be paid on your performance, not just hourly.

that is what i told the hooker - do a good job ...

What I'm really want is for everyone to accept that this is happening, and talk to their clans and friends. Sometimes when someone makes an asshole play, they don't realize their being an asshole. So far in this thread, nobody has said I'm wrong. We have all agreed that this would be a massive task to properly research, and with so many variables, how do we all agree in a unified policy. Most of the Multi-Stepping has been obvious so far. When you see the example I posted to start this thread, those hits all take place moments, maybe seconds apart...

I agree that if someone seemed to clearly be camping our news and farming down countries that hit us, I'd probably want to have a little conversation on the matter, but in many cases, it's probably just coincidence.

Coincidence is justifiable. Things happen, and sometimes, things happen that doesn't always look right, but when you see a pattern... Ares does not have any plans to act on this issue agressively this set. But I'm afread if we don't responce soon to this, that all clans well be seeing this same pattern. Rather then waiting until it happens, we should come up with the solution so that when it does happen, we have a course of action to deal with it.

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