The last thing I want this thread to turn into is any kind of finger-pointing and/or baseless accusations. I ask this purely cause I'm curious if people even care or think about this stuff like I do.

Do you think game admins (with database access to your country's information without ops, or the ability to change/modify country attributes) should be playing the game at all?

I'd like to think that if any game admins are even playing that they wouldn't abuse this power, however the fact remains that it is entirely possible.

should game admins be playing EE?

Yes.

I used to think they shouldn't. But that was back when people cheated:p

Now i think, yes they should

-easier to respond to issues if they are playing.
-Keeps them interested in the game and i think keeps them more up to date with political issues which helps when considering gameplay changes etc.

Fairly sure they can't see country info mate:p

even if they can, would be fairly obvious if they cheated:p

I don't think it would be that obvious in some ways.. It's probably pretty easy to get a list of everyone in a clan with all their breaks listed right there. Also, adding extra military units, food or oil is a trivial task when you can login to a database.

how closely is it watched? I highly doubt qz spends his spare time reading mysql logs :P.

Yes. If you want them to care then its an easy answer. yes yes and yes. It might be best if on their primary server they avoided politicsa bit but thats as far as id go.

PS keep in mind there are 3 alpha servers which are basically replicas of other servers. They're used to test new/existing features.

Of course I want them to care, but how does them playing the game (or not) make them care any more/less?

that is self explanatory, earl :P

if they play, theyll care. if not, perhaps they'll care less?

past that we hope the admins can keep their own bias checked to ours :P

The more time goes on, the more I question whether they should.

Though the main reason for that is alliance loyalties more than anything else, and those don't necessarily go away even if people do quit playing.

i think he just said that pang cheats for laf..

alliance loyalties is an issue.

Pang has been playing in PDM for a while now heh.

and look at them! they have like 50m ANW! twice as much as normal!!:p

The only thing that bugs me is it seems the alliances they are a part of benefit more. I don't know this for a fact, more or less a word of mouth thing when people ask a question or formula or want access to some tool mods have. Then there are the more minor things like in BC having "LNU" classes. SancT Wargaining College ftw. As long as they don't give their alliances real advantages I'm fine. It's just a matter of how ethical they each individually are. I'm ignorant the inner workings and politics of modding the game, as well as hosting sites, but I hope there are some ways of keeping check mods with sensitive information.

yes, and I don't care about it. There's no point in cheating for them or even us in a game like this for us.... unless you call it part of the game.

What I don't get is why boxcar and earthempires doesn't just merge.

They should definately be staying out of politics. I would be careful discussing this sort of topic openly on here though, it's a touchy subject.

Speaker, those are external sites to the game. Granted people who develop the game have developed these sites as well, but they are using information available to anybody with an API code. You, or anyone for that matter (who plans to develop a site, bot or even app) can request a code, then format and do with the data as they please. You're missing my point.

I am not trying to imply any admins [b]are[/b] in fact cheating, I simply think theres an ethical barrier being crossed. It's the fact that the possibility of cheating even exists due to actual players having access to sensitive information that could in turn give them (and/or the alliance they're in) an upper hand.

EDIT:

dagga, it may be a touchy subject, but I am bringing it up anyways.

General Earl - they should definately play. The admins can have as many test servers as they like, but unless they play in a live environment they may not be able to get a true feel for the gaming environment.

I think that was one of the many problems with Mehul Patel..... apart from seeming losing interest in the server the changes that he did implement towards the end of the Swirve days seemed to be out of touch with the game, which just made things worse.

If a game admin can not show self control while playing by getting involved in of politics or using their position to influence play, they should no longer play the game or be admins.

A game admin number one duty should be to the game, not playing it and using their position as a form of leverage.

I hope though that our game admins are a positive influence on the community though while they are playing, it can be a great benifit it our game admins learn the game from the inside out.

In the end, if a game admin is playing Earth Empires and they ARE crossing ethical boundaries, why are they even game admins?

Politics are part of the game, but the fact that most if not all the admins are netters kind of shows, don't get me wrong, the killers have gotten a few add ons, but the fact that the damage potential of Spy Ops has been reduced seems like an attempt to protect the netters.

blah blah

/me goes to work

There are pro's and cons. The biggest pro I see is they stay in touch and actually experience their own changes. Next to that by playing they also stay in touch with their playerbase. To do this on an even bigger scale I would applaud admins who move around on a 1 - 2 set basis from tag to tag. So play 1 - 2 sets in say PDM then 1 - 2 sets in Monsters and then move to SoF or SOL.

This would give them a good insight on how every every separate tag has it's workings and processes of thought from an internal view instead of external views. I know for fact that at the start of Earth2025 Mehul and Blake actually moved around tags quite a bit under diff nicks just to feel out the player base. (So yes you could've played along mehul if you've been playing long enough :P)

The cons are that people will always question the legitimacy of admins if they play. Personally I've seen enough of most admins to flat out say they will not benefit any tag they play in.

As for them being primary netters. It's how you look at it, I personally have found it rather challenging to sit down with my Veteran members and the wardept and think about how we how to adapt and adjust to the new what most of the warrers call "netter changes" to the game and then even further how to teach the rest of SOL to adapt and adjust to those changes.

So yes one can fluff and moan and say look at those netting changes! Or one can look at it as a challenge and make the best out of it. So far most changes have been re-evaluated every set and adjusted to fit the need of the server.

Yes, if they can play by their own rules:)

And if admins play, they see problems, so they fix it faster:)

How about the admins stop playing and take the game away? here's a novel idea you guys create your own earth: 2025 spin-off and don't play.

No they should Not play, human nature dictates that they will cheat for themselves or others (knowingly Or unknowingly), but dont worry they will justify it in their own minds. So many ways to cheat. Lets make a list!

Yeah, the moving to a different tag every 2 or 3 sets is a great idea, it will give admins a feel of why certain clans do certain things.

Netter Changes are a challenge, that I'm willing to take and enjoy, but Spy Ops need to be empowered, is lame that netters can go around with an SPAL of nothing and still don't get fluffed hard for it... If you got NO spies or SPAL of less than 1, then no one should fail a single op on you regardless of amount or type.

yes... yes they should.. killing a admins/mods country for something you think they did to wrong you is the basis of any good gamer.

if I played alliance and you killed my country I would probably just laugh at it which is pretty much what I did when I played alliance:P

To be fair, I'm the only person who mods alliance server unless there is something I need assistance with (very rare) or I'm without internet access for a long period of time. The admins are very careful not to use their db access for anything other than game development or to assist in an investigation (at someone elses request). Not that I think any admin would abuse their powers if they modded alliance regularly, but it's to help avoid any kinds of conflicts of interest accidental or deliberate.

And just so you know: I can see your country stats and login name, along with some other info, I CANNOT see your password.

You guys are ridiculous.

With that said, martain are you able to tell when a person opens the database and modifies it?

I have to ask why it's even coming up. Just to stir the pot? From what I can tell from others postings, its not been an issue, and EE has been up for quite some time. Talk about something that's actually affecting the game.

Yes mods should play. They haven't given me a reason to say otherwise.

Damage potential of spyops? Are you referring to the ability for a clan admin to see failed spyops performed on all their countries? Or was there something else done that I'm not aware of?

I like that the mods play. more power to them let them enjoy the fruits of there labor.

well except for zarcon i don't trust that guy! i'm positive he's stealing my civs and giving them to his country. bahahah

i believe that is in reference to the fact that after 20 aggressive spy actions ( damaging Ops ) you fail alot,

and probably that some ops need a tweak to make them more useful

I actually did stop playing for a couple of rounds and just ran a fodder country to bump numbers on the alliance server, or ran a crappy all-x netting country in a safe tag under an assumed name. I found it doesn't make a difference. I can play, I can not play, I can hide where I play, I can leave to another country and barely log in... some people will still complain but the vast majority (like 3900 of 4000ish accounts :p) don't care at all no matter what I do.

While I can't speak for the other admins, my motivation behind making this game was to help rebuild a great community, not so that I could run the game how I pleased. It makes me happy that something I helped build brings happiness (hopefully) to a couple of thousand people everyday. It's a way to positively impact a lot of people's lives around the globe. From the thankyou messages we often get (especially during the first year), I consider being able to positively impact people to be the best thing about being an admin.

If you have a query about people abusing their access, please bring it to my attention. If it's about me, please bring it to qz or slag's attention. For all the bullfluff threads like this about admins playing, no one ever brings any evidence of admins or mods doing anything wrong with their access. I know I'm not doing anything sketchy with my access, and until someone brings me evidence that others are, I'm going to trust the guys who have a vested interest in NOT being corrupt to remain that way.

To that end, if the admins playing on the Alliance server is that difficult for you to deal with, there's 5 other servers where most of us don't have time to play. Maybe give those a try :)

If we don't trust them to play, how can we trust them to administrate?

This thread reminds me of people complaining about the smaller cup sizes during free Slurpee day.

We've already tried running a game where the admins don't play. We all know exactly where that road leads.

Now, we're trying running a game where the admins do play. So far, it hasn't been an issue -- at all.

Personally, I think it makes more sense to keep going with what's working now than to fall back on what's failed in the past.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

The real question is why did General Earl even create this thread?

I imagine this is somewhat like playing Call of Duty with your friend that helped to create the game and then telling him he can't play it online, because he may be cheating.

I'm sure a big motivation for creating earth empires was because pang, slag and qzjul enjoyed playing e:2025. How dare any of you that they can't play a game that THEY created or be affiliated to an alliance.

I mean I'm not pangaea's greatest fan, but none of it has to do with him being a game admin. There is a line between administrating and playing - they've (the admins) managed to draw it, so why don't you guys do the same.

Seriously? *blink* Actually I would say that the majority of people would be able to mod/admin without cheating, just like the majority of people in positions of authority do not abuse it. Yes, there will always be those that do - but I think this is the LAST place we need to worry about that.

I've worked with these folks for years (and years). I'm not the least bit concerned that any of them would abuse their power. Well, except for mr. ford - but really, what's he gonna do? Tell nasty stories about me in the wiki? ;)

While I don't think it's out of line to ask the question, I do think it's wrong to assume that something distasteful is going on without a single shred of evidence. When you have a suspicion based on an actual event, THEN is the time to talk about accountability. After all, this isn't a nuclear arsenal - it's a game. (But keep in mind, there are a lot of admins here. It's unlikely that one of them would cheat even if tempted, because there are so many others that could potentially discover it.)

I generally dont care, except when I get logs of NukEvil recruiting new people with messages like

"Play in evo thats where all the admins play"

doesn't really seem fair. but in terms of gameplay who cares

I am adding a disclaimer to this first.... Ahead of time..I am not trying to sound like a fluff, I know that alot of times I can come off that way.

First off, I don't think this topic really should of been brought up, it stirs the pot. But since it has, I completely support admins playing. I don't feel like it is fair that the guys that helped keep this game going for the community should have to stop playing. Apparently they loved playing it enough to recreate it, and take time out of their RL's. Not to go keep half of you selfish people happy.
I don't see WoW or any other MMORPG players out there calling out the game admins/mods for playing their own game and calling it cheating. I could be wrong. I also find it funny that this is day 2 that I have heard something about this. Half of you people are soooo distrusting. Yesterday I heard (and I won't name any names or where it was at):
"i always wonder... this irc is on EE server so realistically slagpit can log our chats without us knowing or even monitor it, during war times". And yeah I have thought it before too, but being the all knowing galleri, LOL and knowing zarcon is the one that hosts the EE server I went to ask him. You all have such the Big Brother is watching attitude. Ugg.
I am about "half" for the clan rotation thing.....honestly I don't care either way. I think they know the player base in this game already and only getting into other clans means they will know everyone's business and how each clan's Internal Affairs are. No need for that as a game admin/mod IMO. Besides, I need qzjul for when Anoniem does not give me the answer I like :P

Tarl: as a fellow imagger, you have disappointed me with your comments.

So as far as I am concerned admins can play on, have fun. And btw ....I know you don't hear it much, but Thank you.

Boxcar and EE are completely seperate entities :P
Your point about "LNU" is valid, but my response is this: Boxcar was built originally as a "LaF only" hosting site, and was expanded to allow for other alliances later.

So obviously the site's core design and features were set up in the way that LaF wanted them, because we were the only ones using the site during its development and for quite a while after it was developed.

GeneralEarl: oddly enough, I do check the mysql & apache logs every month or so, just to make sure nothing fluffy is going on.


Obviously I'm an admin, so I'm somewhat biased; but I think playing the game is what keeps us interested; I wanted to keep playing Earth and keep Evolution and evolution2025.com going, those are two of the main reasons I decided to start this with pang.

And, as others have said, I think it was Earth:2025's downfall that the game admins didn't play, because they didn't care anymore, plus they had *no clue* about the game. For example, I don't play express, and I really don't have a good feel for the strat balance &etc; but Slagpit does, so he's been able to make really positive changes for that server, and likewise FFA.

If I were to stop playing and think like mehul was probably starting to, I'd look at the top 100 scores from last reset, see that a netgaining government - Republic - didn't show up at all in the top 50, and conclude that it needs strengthening. Or other such arguments.

WOW programmers play WOW; other game programmers play their games... with the main idea that you want them to be interested in their game.

As for the "cheating &etc" stuff; if we cheat, then we only screw ourselves, as we ruin the experience for everybody. That's the accusations we've heard from Mars2025 as well, and we clearly don't want those sorts of things happening here.

I don't know for sure, but Pang I think also wanted a good place for boxcar to be useful...

And furthermore, we all know why E2025 failed; a combination of bad mismanagement/maintenance at the end, the cheating more generally over the last decade, and stagnation - all of which, imho, are partially due to the admins being out of touch.


So yea... basically we have too much invested in this to screw it up via cheating, imho, and it's better for the game if we know wtf is going on...

I would say this is false; if anybody asks me for something, I will tell them as much as I would tell anybody in my alliance &etc. I've also made my formula sheet (which is now out of date, but was a starting point for building the game) publically available for the last half a decade...

Speaker: You're what's wrong with the world.

Chevs: Where are these supposed logs? You used the plural, so I'm going to assume you have more than one instance of Nukevil recruiting people in that manner?

there have been 355 applications to evo, and i dont remember a single one of them mentioning nukevil as a referral or anything about the game admins.

Yes, please provide the logs of me recruiting ppl to Evo "because the admins play there".

Because I don't remember doing so either.

YES

how else can i grab pang's ugly ass country this reset?

I OBJECT!!! I think Pang's ass is kinda cute, in a fluffy apple sorta way...

lol i assumed chevs was joking... was he being serious? i think the same can be said of tarl... the seriousness of this thread is questionable to say the least... (not to say it's intention was so)

i for one, support the admins playing the game for all the aforementioned reasons.

also, it seems like GE wasn't going for the 'flame-fest' everyone seems to think he's getting at. but rather, he's questioning and being critical of a system that could be abused. the fact remains that the integrity of the admins is damn near impeccable if not so already.


from reading the first post, the 'it's possible' section seems to be the dominating theme of the anti-admin-gaming thoughts.

now, i could be incorrect, but it seems as though this was merely a thread to gather thoughts on the direction in which this game is heading. if this game gets so massive to the point that the current mod and admin team can't handle it, it'd be nice to know there is a more 'checks and balances' system involved to keep newer additions (albeit, most likely they will be selected from currently active and positive forces of Earth Empires) from perhaps tarnishing a thus far successful endeavor.


as a side note, although i doubt any admin would care to hear from a guy like me... i think so far a great job has been done, and will be interested in seeing how you handle the growth that has been promised (and i'm sure worked on rather diligently) in the future. it'd be nice to see thousands of active players on the boards discussing what can be done to further the game even more!

P.S. anoniem, don't you think you may be a bit harsh to Speaker, considering his post was relatively early on in the first page, and you posted twice before h4 or qz mentioned his post...?

To everyone who's wondering why I brought this up, (good question):

I was just curious about something that I have a particular point of view on, and wanted to know know what other people's thought's and ideas on the subject were as well.

As it turns out, what some thought was a 'touchy subject' or 'stirring the pot' wasn't that big of a deal after all. It seems more players support admins playing than not, and thats cool. I respect that. As a matter of fact it's even swayed me to think about things a little differently. I'm still not entirely convinced it's a great idea for them to be playing, but on the other hand, there is no real reason they shouldn't. I do trust them (as I said, I am not trying to point any fingers or make baseless accusations).

The people who are pro-admin brought up some really good points, and the people against it are (mostly) for the same reasons as my own. It's nice to see some mods/devs in on the discussion too, you guys made really good points as well.

(PS TY Jager, you pretty much hit the nail on the head, this was not intended to be a flame-fest, and yes it was definitely about the 'possibility' rather than anything actually going on)