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TheORKINMan Game profile

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1305

May 12th 2011, 3:09:24

Mmmmm have to disagree there Detmer. Babies have memories and many other brain functions that I personally consider to be indicative of a human mind well before the third trimester. In the United States in today's day and age there is zero reason an unwanted baby should make it to the stage of being a fetus if you don't want one. Personally I think if a mother has allowed the clump of sells progress to the point of having a brain then she should be SOL. Virtually everywhere in the United States there are readily available contraceptives AS WELL as places where you can get the day after pill for free just in case. I would imagine in Canada where reproductive rights are much more liberal it is even easier to acquire these things.
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Detmer Game profile

Member
4280

May 12th 2011, 3:13:51

Originally posted by TheORKINMan:
Mmmmm have to disagree there Detmer. Babies have memories and many other brain functions that I personally consider to be indicative of a human mind well before the third trimester.


I am not aware of any creature that has no memory. Consciousness is what makes something uniquely human in my opinion. If you have other characteristics I would love to hear them.

In the United States in today's day and age there is zero reason an unwanted baby should make it to the stage of being a fetus if you don't want one. Personally I think if a mother has allowed the clump of sells progress to the point of having a brain then she should be SOL. Virtually everywhere in the United States there are readily available contraceptives AS WELL as places where you can get the day after pill for free just in case. I would imagine in Canada where reproductive rights are much more liberal it is even easier to acquire these things.


Well, that is sort of true. In some states it is very difficult to get those things.

H4xOr WaNgEr Game profile

Forum Moderator
1971

May 12th 2011, 20:54:38

I'm sorry CK but that is just ridiculous.
I'd love to hear your attempt to adequetely justify any of those with macro arguments.

martian Game profile

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May 13th 2011, 15:28:43

"I would imagine in Canada where reproductive rights are much more liberal it is even easier to acquire these things."

It is really easy to get these things.

"In the United States in today's day and age there is zero reason an unwanted baby should make it to the stage of being a fetus if you don't want one."

Fact is you aren't going to change human behavior on this one. There will always be unwanted fetuses and people will always find ways to get rid of them.

illegal narcotics is the same thing.

You can't legislate/impose morality (of the kind which prevents people from doing what they want) on large groups of people who are opposed and expect it to work very well unless you have regimes like Iran or Feudal China and then you only succeed in controlling the poor.

Prohibition, drugs, abortion, copyright violations, prostitution, homosexuality.

Really what it comes down to is are you going to set up a situation where only the rich (and daring individuals) can get away with something or create an environment where the vast majority of the population can.
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martian Game profile

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May 13th 2011, 15:30:29

and yes it's more than simply an economic issue. Not everything should be settled purely in terms of economics. Otherwise one could advocate things slavery and contract killings.

:P
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BobbyATA Game profile

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2384

May 13th 2011, 15:34:08

Originally posted by Detmer:


It is psychologically very traumatic for many women to give up a baby for adoption. Also, I hear that squeezing a bowling ball through your genitals is a lot of fun.


lol more traumatic than killing their own child?

BobbyATA Game profile

Member
2384

May 13th 2011, 15:42:08

for me it is very simple. An unborn baby is a human immediately after conception. Killing a human is wrong. Thus, abortion is wrong.

I can see reasonable people disagreeing with my second sentence. But I don't really see how they can say I'm wrong for feeling how I do. So honestly, whats the point of having much of a debate about abortion? It seems to basically come down to when you consider an unborn baby to be "human"... and that seems to be a matter of opinion...

izapimp Game profile

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207

May 13th 2011, 15:52:56

*is pro choice. Free will
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Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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6702

May 13th 2011, 16:29:57

why do people keeps saying it's wrong to kill humans? think it might be wrong to simply do it for the sheer fun of it, but i think there are times where not only is it correct to kill da human, but it's downright glorious.
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Pang Game profile

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May 13th 2011, 16:34:12

Originally posted by martian:
and yes it's more than simply an economic issue. Not everything should be settled purely in terms of economics. Otherwise one could advocate things slavery and contract killings.

:P


don't knock slave labour
slave labour is what built this game
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braden Game profile

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May 13th 2011, 16:53:42

"Also, I hear that squeezing a bowling ball through your genitals is a lot of fun."

i believe that is why they have demerol?

H4xOr WaNgEr Game profile

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1971

May 13th 2011, 17:11:37

Whoever argued it was simply a economic issue?

martian Game profile

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May 13th 2011, 17:55:08

@pang: yeah I earn every penny of what you are paying me to moderate stuff:P

@h4: I will just say it was you:P Not saying anyone did, just making a point

to those arguing that killing a human is wrong, does this mean you are advocating pacifism and that there should be no military/death penalty as well? Just trying to get clarification here..
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Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 13th 2011, 18:28:36

da flubberty of it... essentially Christians want God's Will followed, but if it's God's Will that da baby getz da aborted, then they question God's Will?

well, i haven't actually seen God's Will, not even technically sure one is needed or who is responsible for executing it. probably the Devil is to pay for it and all the other funeral related expenses.
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PapaSmurf Game profile

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May 13th 2011, 18:31:17

Abortion is a family decision not a government decision.

martian Game profile

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May 13th 2011, 18:44:32

correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe there is any mention in the christian bible about abortion...
you are all special in the eyes of fluff
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Galandy Game profile

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463

May 13th 2011, 18:45:51

correct me if I'm wrong but martian is full of fluff
<[FBI]ZEN> Which is funny...because I am Spanish and Native American mixed....which means I am a Mexican....
<Galandy>move to canada ZEN everyone else does
<[FBI]ZEN> And breed with a Quebecian
<[FBI]ZEN> To make the ultimate snob/migrant worker

BobbyATA Game profile

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2384

May 13th 2011, 18:47:15

martian said: "to those arguing that killing a human is wrong, does this mean you are advocating pacifism and that there should be no military/death penalty as well? Just trying to get clarification here.."


martian not at all. What I meant by "killing a human is wrong" is really "killing an innocent human is wrong." To get all 6th grade on you (and others), seriously duhhhhhhhhhhhhh

BobbyATA Game profile

Member
2384

May 13th 2011, 18:54:24

and btw to go off what TOM was saying above, a baby conceived out of rape is as innocent as any other baby. I'm opposed to abortion even in cases of rape/incest.

Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

Member
6702

May 13th 2011, 18:56:53

Originally posted by martian:
correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe there is any mention in the christian bible about abortion...


you do understand that if you are going to read the bible, that you actually have to pray to God to give you the ability to interpret his word correctly, don't you?
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Detmer Game profile

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May 13th 2011, 19:02:19

Originally posted by martian:
correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe there is any mention in the christian bible about abortion...


As a Christian I have read through the Bible multiple times when I want to figure out various issues. One such time I was specifically trying to figure out abortion. In my interpretation of the Bible there is nothing against abortion. I have seen written arguments against abortion based on the Bible but (clearly, based on my stance) none of them are at all convincing to me.

archaic Game profile

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7014

May 13th 2011, 19:11:44

It is with great pleasure that we welcome our newest state - Canada! Welcome to America guys, please take a number and go ahead and step in front of Puerto Rico.

At least you get to be reunited with all of the hockey teams we stole from you.
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martian Game profile

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May 13th 2011, 20:29:18

Bobby:
"martian not at all. What I meant by "killing a human is wrong" is really "killing an innocent human is wrong." "

The two statements are distinctly different and one can not necessarily infer that you mean the second based on the first.

You obviously don't deal with Lawyers or contracts very much:P
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Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 13th 2011, 20:37:51

Originally posted by BobbyATA:
martian said: "to those arguing that killing a human is wrong, does this mean you are advocating pacifism and that there should be no military/death penalty as well? Just trying to get clarification here.."


martian not at all. What I meant by "killing a human is wrong" is really "killing an innocent human is wrong." To get all 6th grade on you (and others), seriously duhhhhhhhhhhhhh


does that just mean that it's wrong to kill somebody that hasn't had sex yet? because that's essentially the point when people are no longer innocent...
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BobbyATA Game profile

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May 13th 2011, 23:46:46

context martian context...

CKHustler

Member
253

May 14th 2011, 16:40:40

H4, Im not trying to justify any macro arguments, Im simply saying my arguments are as rational as any others being made, making them all moot. When humans can rationalize killing an innocent(whether you believe it is a human at that moment, it is clear that the dna, full dna not half, involved will become a human in due time) by saying that it is better for society, where does it stop?

I find fallacy in the macro level arguments for abortion as you find fallacy in comparing it to killing Jews, but they are comparable and that was my point.

I agree with Bobby, why have the debate when one side classifies a human as one thing and the other side another. Some classify it at conception, others as it leaves the womb and there is nothing that will change anyones mind on that matter, so we are all just blowing smoke.

braden Game profile

Member
11,480

May 14th 2011, 16:52:21

at the end of the day, only one side encourages the extermination of life. why have this argument, indeed.

(i do make a difference between death row and an unborn child. the former, hang 'em, the latter, birth 'em)

CKHustler

Member
253

May 14th 2011, 16:55:35

braden, indeed that is the way a pro-lifer will view it. A pro-choicer will say that no human life exists to exterminate. As martian said, whats the difference between those cluster of cells and a cat? Now I can disagree with him to high heaven, but it won't change his opinion.

Moral arguments are always rationalized by some side and impossible to reason to a conclusion. So, rarely do I engage in trying, I just wanted my bonus post to count for something. haha

braden Game profile

Member
11,480

May 14th 2011, 17:06:58

and unless the person goes in wanting to expand or challenge what they already know, anybody arguing with them isn't going to accomplish anything.

this goes so much past just moral arguments :)

(i try to keep an open mind. fooglmog for example often has changed or altered my opinion, based on him thinking what I had not all the way through. and he puts his thoughts to words very well, i often fail at this :P)

Pain Game profile

Member
4849

May 14th 2011, 17:07:44

do you also think its wrong for a family to decide to pull the plug on someone who is brain dead and on life support?

what about if a woman is injured during pregnancy and has a miscarriage because of it? should she be charged with involuntary manslaughter?
Your mother is a nice woman

braden Game profile

Member
11,480

May 14th 2011, 17:13:12

If the person has a living will i think they call it where it says to do one or the other, life support or not, then you go by that. If you are the persons medical proxy and they, without any documentation, expressed a desire for one way or the other, you do as they asked. If nothing was mentioned or said, then you do what you feel is best for the person at hand. a ninety nine year old woman with one lung and a failing kidney, you might want to say your goodbyes.

If it's your fifteen year old son, and in ten years they might be able to heal whatever is wrong (i am pro stem cell research, and who knows what we'll be able to do then), then you might want to hang in there, hold some hope for the future.

If the woman smoked crack or shot heroin or stabbed herself in the stomach, then yes, hold her responsible. If an act of God takes the child like has happened for all of human time, then of course you don't hold them responsible.

Pain Game profile

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4849

May 14th 2011, 17:15:23

so if a drug addict is raped and becomes pregnant you hold her responsible still?
Your mother is a nice woman

braden Game profile

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11,480

May 14th 2011, 17:34:35

You never specified any sort of sexual abuse in your question.

But the woman gets pregnant, on her own accord, and you hold the child responsible?

Pain Game profile

Member
4849

May 14th 2011, 18:28:40

yes. it should not have fought so hard to get up inside that egg.

i just dont see how people could think its a good idea to bring a child into the world that is unwanted.
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braden Game profile

Member
11,480

May 14th 2011, 22:46:33

i'd suggest you look into this wonderful thing called adoption. it benefits both the child and the parents who want nothing more in their life to start a family, when they can not, and would do nothing but love and adore this baby.

i do not understand how you can call this unwanted.

is it a perfect solution every time, of course not. but a non-picturesque upbringing and childhood is a far better life than not having one at all.

you, yourself, could have very eaisly been aborted. then i guess you'd have an entirely different opinion

Pang Game profile

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Game Development
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May 14th 2011, 23:18:42

it's pretty easy to sit here and say "just give the baby up!"

but in reality, it's a pretty huge thing to give away a child -- especially your first born child.
not to mention having to carry it for 9 months and grow more attached to it.
let alone the expenses (although those would/could be covered by the adopted parents)

it's not always like Juno, homeskillet...

if i was aborted, i wouldn't have cared. i don't remember anything from the first year or two of my life anyway. that's a weird argument to make :p
if that's your argument -> you better make sure every single one of your sperm/eggs are used to create children, or else the same thing applies.
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braden Game profile

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11,480

May 14th 2011, 23:37:16

i don't know what you mean by juno? i assume it's not very important though.

"but in reality, it's a pretty huge thing to give away a child"
and killing it would be something you come upon lightly?

"if that's your argument -> you better make sure every single one of your sperm/eggs are used to create children"

this i don't understand. does it work the other way that if you abort one child you had better abort any other time a child is conceived from you?

to relate masturbation to conceiving a child is another thing i don't really understand

Pain Game profile

Member
4849

May 14th 2011, 23:52:13

Originally posted by braden:
i'd suggest you look into this wonderful thing called adoption. it benefits both the child and the parents who want nothing more in their life to start a family, when they can not, and would do nothing but love and adore this baby.

i do not understand how you can call this unwanted.

is it a perfect solution every time, of course not. but a non-picturesque upbringing and childhood is a far better life than not having one at all.

you, yourself, could have very eaisly been aborted. then i guess you'd have an entirely different opinion


if i was aborted i wouldnt be able to have an opinion so i obviously wouldnt care.

not every kid gets adopted. if abortions werent legal there would be ALOT more kids needing to be adopted. good luck finding homes for them all.
Your mother is a nice woman

H4xOr WaNgEr Game profile

Forum Moderator
1971

May 15th 2011, 0:59:57

Although I am pro-choice, I disagree with that rationale.

There is a long waiting list of couples looking to adopt babies. If there was a sudden influx of infants up for adoption I'm sure the demand would be there.

The children that tend to have problems getting adopted are the ones that are abandoned or orphaned later on.

braden Game profile

Member
11,480

May 15th 2011, 3:51:51

and if you asked one of those unfortunate children who were not lucky enough to be adopted by a kind family if they'd rather not be alive, i think you'd find an equal number of children growing up with their birth parents would answer the question similarly.

Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

Member
6702

May 15th 2011, 14:36:40

http://en.wikipedia.org/...Human_Extinction_Movement

found the above when i delving into the absurd idea that mankind should be held accountable for every species that it has inexplicably wiped from the face of the planet due to it's actions.

meh, i don't understand this whole abortion dealy-bob... it's like God giving people the choice of Heaven or Hell, then attempting to demand that everyone goes to Heaven.

if people already have a choice between abortion or adoption, why is it required that everyone be required to do adoption instead of abortion?
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braden Game profile

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May 15th 2011, 18:31:48

because nobody dies.

how did you not come to this answer yourself?

Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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6702

May 15th 2011, 19:46:40

well, if nobody dies, then why bother with trying to keep people from committing abortion?
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braden Game profile

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May 15th 2011, 19:50:20

because then somebody dies?

braden Game profile

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May 15th 2011, 19:51:16

i think i misunderstood your question, and thus answered something entirely different.

that, or you didn't understand what you asked :P

Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 15th 2011, 20:05:49

it's my understanding that every human being has to go before God and be judged based on how they lived their lives. how can an unborn fetus commit any sins that are worth sending them to hell for? so, i have no idea why a bunch of christians are babbling that a baby should be kept alive long enough to be able to risk eternal damnation.
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Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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May 15th 2011, 20:15:19

can sorta see them arguing to preserve the mother's soul, but hell, every dang person in that bloody monotheist religion believes that women are inherently evil and are going to burn anyway.
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braden Game profile

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May 15th 2011, 20:24:17

aborting the child to save it from possibly living a life of sin is just absurd.

how exactly can you claim that every single one of us feels that way at all? i realize the whore ate the fluffing apple and all, but you gotta give some blame to the snake, and what not..

Dibs Ludicrous Game profile

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6702

May 15th 2011, 20:32:39

let me esplain, no, no, would take too long, let me sum up....

what the heck do your feelings have to do with the will of God?

people are born with the freedom to obey God or rott in hell for an eternity, how you figure that you can cheat his justice by trying to force everybody from having a choice?
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Fooglmog Game profile

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May 15th 2011, 21:07:25

Originally posted by braden:
and unless the person goes in wanting to expand or challenge what they already know, anybody arguing with them isn't going to accomplish anything.

this goes so much past just moral arguments :)

(i try to keep an open mind. fooglmog for example often has changed or altered my opinion, based on him thinking what I had not all the way through. and he puts his thoughts to words very well, i often fail at this :P)


I hadn't been following this thread, but I just stumbled upon this comment. I'm absolutely flattered.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.