PDM country #594 did one hit each on three tagged LaF countries. This came a couple days after LaF's toprankers hit PDM 17 times in 24 hours.

#594 gained 4247 acres from his three hits. LaF's posted retal policy indicates they consider an appropriate response to be 6:3 or L:L.

Instead, they responded with 42 hits within the retal window, netting 9180 acres. By their own policies, they grossly overretalled. As the situation was already strained from their systematic farming and our NM response, we did not retal these overretals.

After the retal window expired, #36 helped himself to 2338 more acres in 7 grabs. (Two other LaF countries also made an additional 5 hits and gained 1633 acres)

#594 retaled #36 with 1798 acres in 3 hits.

#36 RoRed for 1989 acres in 4 hits.

#36 was killed by PDM after making a total of 17 hits on #594

--------------------------

The purpose of this post is simply to preempt the spin. PDM-LaF relations have been very poor for quite some time. In a stated effort to improve relations, we signed a two-set pact with them. The pact expired this set, and LaF demonstrated their low opinion of PDM with systematic farming aimed at undermining our retal capacity. We are very familiar with this scenario and have little use for LaF's vacuous attempts to placate us with a DNH after they bend us over.

We consider the situation with #594 complete (we'll discuss with laf before killing the other countries currently farming #594) and wish to state our deep regret over the utter lack of respect LaF shows us set after set.

^^^ well said

Perhaps you retards should try contacting someone else instead of going with the "well I'm sure they have us on DNH and no one will grab us or get annoyed at our terrible grabbing" procedure. It is no surprise you are the most hated alliance atm. That via that alliance first post poll.

START SELLING TANKS

good luck PDM :)

SoL 4 TNW?

this ought to be interesting, I guess I will refrain from any comment of substance until after my leadership posts on this

locket: in the future we will be sure to confirm with laf that we are 'friends' - lesson learned. regardless of any DNH though, do you honestly think the massive farming of PDM this set was a reasonably defensible action?

PDM GSing into DRs

disappointing!

You guys hit us once and it takes us 4 retals to get the land back, that is why the hit differential is so large.

Thus you are the ones spinning

I'm not going into this since it always just gets me fluffed at but...

Do you really think trying to justify nuke retals etc etc is defensible?

Oh and right after killing a country you PS another all explore. Nice. Meh i'm going to go complain about the lack of foodpeak instead.

H4xOr: you are right, I will edit that part out of my post.

i don't think dec war and harmful spy ops get shown in the news, probably why you can't just look at the news alone to decide to order a kill run

Nice.

I really, really, REALLY don't want to get involved here, so please take this ONLY as information from the former Don and please don't flame me, as I'm trying to keep this as balanced and on the issue as possible:

I approached TAN mid-set last set and told him that I couldn't guarantee that pact would be extended/upgraded, prior to me stepping down as Don. The reason for this was that I, among others, felt that we did not support some of PDM's policies. I won't go into the specific policies or anything, as that is not the point of this post. While PDM has the right to play how it wants, I did not want LaF to be on the hook to defend an ally in wars over policies we do not subscribe to. This is why the LaF/PDM relationship doesn't make sense -- the two alliances just believe in different things. This was all explained to TAN, and there was no malice or ill will attached. The PDM'ers I know I generally like, so I found it unfortunate that our two alliances weren't suited to be friends, but not all alliances are.

That policy mismatch seems to have manifested itself in-game now, which is unfortunate. So good luck to everyone in resolving these issues, I'm out!

Paradigm are awesome.

there's just some minor differences between LaF and PDM policy

1) declare war to do retals. ok for pdm policy, not ok for LaF
2) harmful spy ops as retals. ok for pdm policy, not ok for LaF
3) nukes as retals. ok for pdm policy, not ok for LaF

you cannot "preempt the spin" without including everything. then you are just twisting the facts ;)

I've used the word "unfortunate" too many times today.

and i agree, PDM is awesome. otherwise LaF would've already FSed them ;)

but i find PDM's bravery very commendable. their policies being so out of touch with everyone else is quite hilarious to watch personally =)

Understood, Pang.

To speak to both that point and hanlong's about dec war and harmful ops, naturally I understand where you both are coming from as our current policy breaks from Earth: 2025 tradition.

I'd like to discuss what, if any, actual harmful ops occurred. Please message me through the forums. My guess is that it was not a very large amount, or very damaging. My guess is that the amount of damage done from LaF to PDM is exceptionally more than what was done in retribution.

But yes, our retal policy (http://tinyurl.com/5r5whgu) allows for nontraditional retals that we employ proportionally to the provocation. This policy came about several sets ago as a result of being on the receiving end of systematic farming from LaF, when you were a bigger force on the server and throwing some muscle around. We've never used this part of our retal policy on any tag but LaF because no other alliance treats us the way LaF does.

The problem, overstated as it has been, is that LaF habitually farms PDM into the ground. You take a half dozen players, some of them present/former leaders of the alliance or at least respected vets, and collectively they do an unreasonable amount of hits (this set, 17 grabs) in a very short amount of time, then they all pump defense and jump into the top 10.

At that point it becomes impossible for us to get our land back. You have claimed at times that it's in the spirit of land trading, but it is obviously a tactic just to overwhelm our retal capacity. We could roll over, as we have in the past, when you assure us that the hits will stop. But here we are again, new set same story. Eventually the abuse becomes intolerable.

Again I'd like to point out that we've not had an issue with any alliance but LaF over these points in our retal policy. Were you to treat us with the respect you show other alliances, I doubt we would have any need for these aspects of our policy.

Getting worked up about dec war is just asinine, though.

PS - Pang and hanlong, I respect the civil tone in your posts here and honestly hope that we can find peace.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/5795/lollaf.jpg


Just saying.

A bit hard when you wont talk Balin ;) Peace could have happened ages ago :P (again i dont have any voice in laf etc etc)

"#594 gained 4247 acres from his three hits. LaF's posted retal policy indicates they consider an appropriate response to be 6:3 or L:L.

Instead, they responded with 42 hits within the retal window, netting 9180 acres. By their own policies, they grossly overretalled. As the situation was already strained from their systematic farming and our NM response, we did not retal these overretals.

After the retal window expired, #36 helped himself to 2338 more acres in 7 grabs. (Two other LaF countries also made an additional 5 hits and gained 1633 acres) "


so that's 9180+2338+1633 or 13,151a in 'retal' for 4247a, and apparently LaF feels this is ok.
in what universe is that L:L laf?
in terms of numerical retals. 42+7+5, or 54 hits in response for 3 hits?
yet PDM are the bad guys. hilarious.
funny counting of how it takes "4 hits to get land back" isn't it haxor?
but LaF will just keep farming won't they?

edit: I fail

It did happen when we pacted a couple sets ago. Then as soon as the pact expired you resumed the abuse. There are no other alliances on the server that we've ever had to contact in advance to say, "Hey, in case you're thinking about abusing us, we're here to talk."

edit: even IX showed us more respect than that.

PDM also likes to do FR over AT
LaF wants to do FR privately
PDM FR was AWOL for the past 2 weeks

Our techers were also getting tech stolen, we haven't retalled those yet.

I was always a fan of allowing alternate attack types as valid retals.

you know i'm all for stealing tech as a "retal" but you can't do 6 of them for every hit.

according to your own policy, it was 1 special attack/spy op per grab as a valid retal (and if it was owed 3, you do 3)

doing it as a 6 to 1 ratio is overretaling by your own rules too ;)

and that explains a lot of the land difference in retals. if you choose to do a special spy op as a retal, you will probably end up with less land than if you did standard SS/PS retals ;) if you overretal with special spy ops, you will end up with even less acres. it's nothing against PDM or anything, this is just common sense...

just food for thought..

FR tends to happen after hits are exchanged. You could try talking during a set too ;)

and yes, you can ALWAYS send me an insite about any situation that more than a standard retal (like RoR, etc. etc.)

we can actually sort out why those "RoR" occurred, especially how you practice harmful spy ops and dec war as valid retals and those never show up in the news, you really need to have some sort of communication skills and not base your actions on what you see in the news ;)

Not sure if this helps in any way but I just ate a most delicious Berry Berry Cheesecake and man was it good.

only helps if you share :P

i said that a while ago...
http://forums.earthempires.com/...701471&z=sol-will-win

Pang was right in his long post about telling me all that, but there were some things he omitted.

In principle, regardless of our policies, he was open to the idea of extending the pact. However, because our policies made us war-prone constantly, he said that LaF was unwilling to honor an FDP, so they didn't want to continue with a pact.

However, Pang and I were working towards better relations. BETTER RELATIONS. You don't need a fluffing pact to put another clan on courtesy DNH, as we did with LaF.

How does LaF's conduct this set have anything to do with improving relations?

Everything that Pang and I hammered out, all the long talks, are for nothing because you guys MUST have a pact in order to put an alliance in the embassy.

We shouldn't *need* to chat up your FAs to get a courtesy DNH -- I thought we were improving relations! It's just common goddamn sense to put us on DNH as we did with you.

And this will ALWAYS get blamed on PDM, no matter what, because LaF is infallible.

Even though Pang can be obstinate in his beliefs sometimes, at least he recognized common sense when he saw it. I was trying to work with that.

And LaF just took a fluff all over that this set -- as they did the set after LaF made landmark concessions in a large reps case (which we were completely willing to pay, mind you, and LaF dropped it out of their own volition in order to improve relations, who then proceeded to farm PDM the very next set).

i set PDM to DNH the minute this reset's things broke out.

except PDM kept on nuking and grabbing us.

i know i talked to detmer, he said we'll see later.. so this is "later" :P

I dont think there is anything wrong with doing alternative attacks for your retals. a guy 4 times my size from LaF declares war on me and grabs me, but im supposed to take my land back? how do u do that when he is that much bigger and has 4 million turrets and i only have 200k jets? if i cant take my land back i think he deserves a Nuke, and those 500 acres destroyed is not as big as a loss as if someone were to take that land back.
either way, LaF came out way ahead in land.
i have a question for you guys in here,
would your clan accept 42 hits in 48 hours from another clan?
what would you guys do?

We would see. I told you what was necessary to make things right and you ignored me. I told you there was no way that farming us and then getting a DNH was sufficient. We are sick and tired of that.

so my understanding of pacts goes

start of set
pdm > laf - think were friends with automatic carryover pact
laf > pdm - think were unpacted

later
exchange hits, not sure if the midfeeding or topfeeding started first

later again
laf > pdm - think were on mutual dnh and stop grabbing
pdm > laf - dont think were on mutual dnh and keep grabbing

later again
policy disputes

later again
laf > pdm - has pdm on retal only status for the last 2 weeks but also does retals pdm dont consider retals including on the #594 country
pdm > laf - keeps grabbing and does retals laf dont consider retals

later again
pdm > laf - kills country without contact, wants to resolve issue now, but is still making new grabs

with this hit:

Feb 26/11 10:53:13 PM PS PDM likes to tank me (#35) (Paradigm) Aldo (#382) (LaF) 1603 A (+1019 A)

being 20 minutes after the kill

Just war the bastids. Enough talking :)

rofl @ pdm...

Who needs bots, pdm just nominated themselves as farm land for the foreseeable future.

moooooooo

and another topfeed :P you wonder why no one likes you

like i said, you guys did two grabs first on us.

we didn't hit you guys first. the whole "it's just common goddamn sense to put us on DNH as we did with you." is just AT spinning ;)

what part of grabbing LaF first is "putting LaF on DNH" from the start of the reset? ;)

just look at the news, PDM was the first to SS/PS LaF countries, they were the first (and only) to send nukes, they were also the first to GS a country to death.

in no way was LaF the first in anything ;) to top it off, you guys were the first to complain about "LaF bullying PDM" but it looks like PDM trying to bully LaF ;) which in itself is pretty comical

unlike some of my predecessors i'm not in the boat of taking advantage of smaller alliances. but some of your actions are force spoonfeeding us into that situation, and yet your FA still doesn't want to talk and instead make random actions and then announcing their stupidity of their actions on AT like they are proud of it.

i'm quite speechless

i still lobbes you hanny <3

You're right, there were 2 attacks from PDM that started it.

But FA contact was made, and LaF was made aware that:

1) The first hit was unintentional and was an accident.
2) The second hit was by a member who wasn't checking the embassy and was chastised for hitting you.

For both situations, I think reps / retals were offered, but you'll have to check with Detmer for those exact details.

This is the sort of spin I'm talking about. Hanlong, you totally omitted the above 2 points, and when taken in context, completely invalidates what you're saying.

Oh, I totally agree I left out some key facts such as how detmer did contact me about those two "accidental" grabs, just like you guys conveniently left out harmful spy ops as a reason why there were retals from LaF to PDM that you guys assumed to be RoRs and "grabs initiated from LaF".

Spin goes both ways. And other than the 17 grabs in 24 hrs that you guys always quote, I believe almost all other grabs by LaF on PDM were retals because I set you guys on DNH.

I already apologized for those 17 grabs to you guys, but you guys are clearly playing the aggressor by your actions, which I have stated many times I don't really care about either. I just don't like the "woe is me LaF is such a big bad bully" card when we all know that's not what's happening here.. like I said, I'm not into bullying the little guys, and rather help them out :) this game needs all the players it can get for the sake of the community.

But in order for that to succeed ther needs to be a level of mutual cooperation. If I set your alliance to DNH because you guys complained, I would expect better than

1) constant topfeeds
2) overretals with multiple nukes and/or harmful spy ops, erase the fact that LaF does not accept those as valid retals, even as per PDM policy I don't think dec war, sending 2 nukes and doing 7 harmful ops qualifies as an appropriate response for 2 landgrabs.
3) random killing of a LaF country trying to retal a PDM aggressor who probably violates one of 2 points above.


If I was ss I would've gone "meh heh" all over u guys already, but yet in the spirit of helping the lil guy out I have refrained from any drastic actions as a symbol of that "working towards better relations" that you guys have constantly quoted with ur talks with pang in the past.

But that requires you guys to actually bother to do FA talks with me.

i was one of those original two hits. If you talk to your member (I am pretty sure it was 118) I also immediately sent him a message apologising for the hit, explaining that I was half asleep at the time of taking my turns, as well as being on my mobile. I also let him know I had contacted my FA's, and that I was happy to give up whatever neccessary.

You guys were generous and only took 1 retal, which I am grateful for, as I am pretty sure you came out ahead on that land trade.
I've then steadfastly NOT hit LaF for the rest of the set.
In the between, LaF has so far hit me 2x on top of the fairly warranted retal.
Next hit on me, and I will start hitting LaF in return.
After our 1 member allegedly broke the DNH, though there's allegations floating around that there were LaF hits after the DNH was enforced, but before wari hit, LaF proceeded to start not only farming wari, but hitting our other members.
Why would you expect us to abide by a DNH if you won't follow it yourslelves?
Farming Wari was fine, but why hit others, unless you had no intent of following the DNH. Now you complain that we are grabbing you, yet you are STILL hitting PDM.

In short, communication on both sides makes sense.
As a player who's been playing the game for almost 12 years, I am not blind to both sides being at fault.
Gone are the days it seems, when playing in the spirit of the game was the idea.

I honestly thought things would change in that regard with the advent of EE, but nope. And because PDM are trying to depart from the excessively retarded crap that pacting had become, with things so inbred that LG'ing was impossible because even a DNH meant you were going to lose far more than you grabbed regardless, we're suddenly assholes. i didn't realise that we are all meant to play all x...

17 grabs in 24 hours is inexcusable behavior and doesnt require long winded threads. Just FS em already.

^

Go PDM, you guys don't need to explain yourselves.