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KoHeartsGPA

Member

20,127

Aug 28th 2019, 17:53:14

Originally posted by The_Hawk:
Originally posted by KoHeartsGPA:
Every time I see bashing of any kind I see it as an opportunity to troll, too many people read more into things that are simply a couple sentences, in many cases it only takes one good one liner to trigger someone 🤐


And that's why I was banned from the occupy Democrats fb page.


LMFAO!

Off topic..what did you do to trigger Raz? I just read your sig and LOL.
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

The_Hawk

Member

1869

Aug 28th 2019, 18:16:08

Originally posted by KoHeartsGPA:
Originally posted by The_Hawk:
Originally posted by KoHeartsGPA:
Every time I see bashing of any kind I see it as an opportunity to troll, too many people read more into things that are simply a couple sentences, in many cases it only takes one good one liner to trigger someone 🤐


And that's why I was banned from the occupy Democrats fb page.


LMFAO!

Off topic..what did you do to trigger Raz? I just read your sig and LOL.


He had run solo in ffa and suicided late set into imp.
So we tracked his stats and when he finally came back to play I returned the favor killing him late in the reset.
Originally posted by Syko_Killa:
Qzjul tells me these reports are all psychological and no mods are abusing privaleges.

Originally posted by Raz:
I have left ICD, and any clan Hawk joins moving forward will have me as a suicider if/when I play.

KoHeartsGPA

Member

20,127

Aug 28th 2019, 18:56:10

Originally posted by The_Hawk:
Originally posted by KoHeartsGPA:
Originally posted by The_Hawk:
Originally posted by KoHeartsGPA:
Every time I see bashing of any kind I see it as an opportunity to troll, too many people read more into things that are simply a couple sentences, in many cases it only takes one good one liner to trigger someone 🤐


And that's why I was banned from the occupy Democrats fb page.


LMFAO!

Off topic..what did you do to trigger Raz? I just read your sig and LOL.


He had run solo in ffa and suicided late set into imp.
So we tracked his stats and when he finally came back to play I returned the favor killing him late in the reset.


Fair enough, he shouldn't be butthurt lol
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

Cerberus

Member

3495

Aug 28th 2019, 20:21:31

Personally, I've had it up to my neck with all this leftist bullfluff. Now, I'm just biding my time and planning on how I'm gonna defend "My little piece of the USA". All you gun control nuts are on your own. Once you idiot leftists blow it all up as you inevitably do, don't expect me to play by any "rules", since you aren't either. Have fun, because then, it's gonna be MY TURN.
I don't need anger management, people need to stop pissing me off!

The_Hawk

Member

1869

Aug 28th 2019, 21:40:56

Originally posted by Cerberus:
Personally, I've had it up to my neck with all this leftist bullfluff. Now, I'm just biding my time and planning on how I'm gonna defend "My little piece of the USA". All you gun control nuts are on your own. Once you idiot leftists blow it all up as you inevitably do, don't expect me to play by any "rules", since you aren't either. Have fun, because then, it's gonna be MY TURN.


I work with leftist and a good majority support the 2nd
Originally posted by Syko_Killa:
Qzjul tells me these reports are all psychological and no mods are abusing privaleges.

Originally posted by Raz:
I have left ICD, and any clan Hawk joins moving forward will have me as a suicider if/when I play.

KoHeartsGPA

Member

20,127

Aug 28th 2019, 21:42:10

Originally posted by The_Hawk:
Originally posted by Cerberus:
Personally, I've had it up to my neck with all this leftist bullfluff. Now, I'm just biding my time and planning on how I'm gonna defend "My little piece of the USA". All you gun control nuts are on your own. Once you idiot leftists blow it all up as you inevitably do, don't expect me to play by any "rules", since you aren't either. Have fun, because then, it's gonna be MY TURN.


I work with leftist and a good majority support the 2nd


Likewise, the loudest aren't the majority.
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

DerrickICN

Member

3529

Aug 29th 2019, 0:41:45

I'm a never trumper for different reasons. Voted for McCain -> Jill Stein -> hillary but did it begrudgingly. Not married to one side or the other so i guess i don't qualify as a leftist technically even tho I'm opposed as hell to Trump for a variety of reasons, and will be casting my vote again for any alternative even if that means scum like hillary. I regret nothing.

I'm probably a bit left of most here i suppose. That said, own 2 pistols, 6 shotguns, a rifle, a muzzleloader, a compound bow, 3 recurve bows, 3 throwing knives and 4 throwing axes.

I wouldn't mind having to get a license to have them. In fact I'd probably prefer that was the case. But I'm with y'all if someone ever tries to take them away from me. I think hawk is right. Most people are, that's not just local to Texas. Haha

Something like that would be intriguing because we'd realize how similar we all actually are... When the caravans were coming I'd hoped it'd expose our issues with asylum law in America. Somehow we managed to just throw them in camps and talk about a wall instead of the tangible problem of our broken immigration system. I was disappointed because i thought it would expose how ideologically close we are to each other, but the media seems pretty keen on keeping us divided.

Divide and conquer I suppose....

I truly believe we want the same things when it comes to immigration, equal rights, guns....even marriage. There's a couple things like abortion that we fundamentally disagree on but for the most part we're actually EXTREMELY ideologically similar. That's why the most recent immigration reform fail had bipartisan support....

Edited By: DerrickICN on Aug 29th 2019, 0:51:23
See Original Post

Buch

Member

1348

Aug 29th 2019, 2:18:00

I think the two coasts should form their own hippie countries. Us fly over states will be fine without you and your ideas.

KoHeartsGPA

Member

20,127

Aug 29th 2019, 14:44:54

Originally posted by Buch:
I think the two coasts should form their own hippie countries. Us fly over states will be fine without you and your ideas.


This
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

DerrickICN

Member

3529

Aug 29th 2019, 19:25:46

You guys gonna sell sheep wool for your economy? No offense but the tech companies that make up most of the US exported economy resides on the coasts.

Not only that but texas is flipping blue while ohio and florida are flipping firmly red. If you give us texas with the coasts, you won't even have that oil money...

Y'all gonna be the next Mexico.

Edited By: DerrickICN on Aug 29th 2019, 19:28:23
See Original Post

Buch

Member

1348

Aug 29th 2019, 19:31:37

Derrick are you going to grow food on your highrise? We will be rolling in money selling you guys food.

When it comes to surviving food>tech :p

DerrickICN

Member

3529

Aug 29th 2019, 19:40:17

*scratches head*

So your entire economy will exist on selling potatoes, and 82% of US GDP will still be situated on the coasts. The coasts will still be able to import food, and middle America will no longer be able to be reliant on federal taxes other than on their potatoes.

The coasts will be able to support our current budget for military spending, whereas the middle would essentially have to cut all funding to military just to have enough money to build a road let alone a tank.

I'm liking this idea more by the minute. It's honestly been kind of a pain in the ass that 55% of us make up over 80% of the gdp. We're sick of you freeloaders anyways. Bye felicia lol

Edited By: DerrickICN on Aug 29th 2019, 19:45:50
See Original Post

The_Hawk

Member

1869

Aug 29th 2019, 19:43:28

Originally posted by DerrickICN:
*scratches head*

So your entire economy will exist on selling potatoes, and 82% of US GDP will still be situated on the coasts. The coasts will still be able to import food, and middle America will no longer be able to be reliant on federal taxes other than on their potatoes.

The coasts will be able to support our current budget for military spending, whereas the middle would essentially have to cut all funding to military just to have enough money to build a road let alone a tank.

I'm liking this idea more by the minute.


Dont worry. If history has taught me anything the extreme socialist policies will leave you fighting for scraps while the elite are dividing up the cash.

No need for a big military too! Seems the policy always wants to cut the budget on defense spending.
Originally posted by Syko_Killa:
Qzjul tells me these reports are all psychological and no mods are abusing privaleges.

Originally posted by Raz:
I have left ICD, and any clan Hawk joins moving forward will have me as a suicider if/when I play.

DerrickICN

Member

3529

Aug 29th 2019, 19:48:08

Unpopular opinion. Trump is our most ideologically socialist president since Gerald Ford. I can explain how if you'd like...

The_Hawk

Member

1869

Aug 29th 2019, 19:52:52

Originally posted by DerrickICN:
Unpopular opinion. Trump is our most ideologically socialist president since Gerald Ford. I can explain how if you'd like...


You talking about paying off farmers a practice that has been going on since my great grandpa was growing tobacco and sorghum in West Virginia?

Originally posted by Syko_Killa:
Qzjul tells me these reports are all psychological and no mods are abusing privaleges.

Originally posted by Raz:
I have left ICD, and any clan Hawk joins moving forward will have me as a suicider if/when I play.

Buch

Member

1348

Aug 29th 2019, 19:56:48

Originally posted by DerrickICN:
*scratches head*

So your entire economy will exist on selling potatoes, and 82% of US GDP will still be situated on the coasts. The coasts will still be able to import food, and middle America will no longer be able to be reliant on federal taxes other than on their potatoes.

The coasts will be able to support our current budget for military spending, whereas the middle would essentially have to cut all funding to military just to have enough money to build a road let alone a tank.

I'm liking this idea more by the minute. It's honestly been kind of a pain in the ass that 55% of us make up over 80% of the gdp. We're sick of you freeloaders anyways. Bye felicia lol


The freeloaders would flock to the coasts when we end welfare. You couldn't feed yourselves on pure imports. Plus how many slaughter houses and food processors do you guys have....?

DerrickICN

Member

3529

Aug 29th 2019, 20:01:29

Not just that no. That's one way yes but everyone has done that so i don't think that would qualify him as "more socialist" than his recent predecessors.

A good example of how Trump is generally a socialist is Harley Davidson. Trump tarrifs and retaliatory tarrifd from the EU completely whiped out their first quarter profit margin causing the company to relocate to Thailand to avoid a $100m deficit for the year.

In response, Trump encouraged people to boycott Harley, and began working on tax breaks for other motorcycle manufacturers.

This sort of direct government intervention into individual companies is, in essence, the bad parts of socialism.

The_Hawk

Member

1869

Aug 29th 2019, 20:13:44

Originally posted by DerrickICN:
Not just that no. That's one way yes but everyone has done that so i don't think that would qualify him as "more socialist" than his recent predecessors.

A good example of how Trump is generally a socialist is Harley Davidson. Trump tarrifs and retaliatory tarrifd from the EU completely whiped out their first quarter profit margin causing the company to relocate to Thailand to avoid a $100m deficit for the year.

In response, Trump encouraged people to boycott Harley, and began working on tax breaks for other motorcycle manufacturers.

This sort of direct government intervention into individual companies is, in essence, the bad parts of socialism.


Ah so like big corporations bail outs being bad. Should let capitalism take its course.
Originally posted by Syko_Killa:
Qzjul tells me these reports are all psychological and no mods are abusing privaleges.

Originally posted by Raz:
I have left ICD, and any clan Hawk joins moving forward will have me as a suicider if/when I play.

DerrickICN

Member

3529

Aug 29th 2019, 20:32:03

Similar yes, although our government tends to take the old bail out approach when an entire industry is on the verge of failure. Like Obama bailing out the banking sector or Trump bailing out the agricultural sector.

Individual direct intervention into specific companies is pretty uniquely Trump socialism, and not sort of status quo.

Saying buy from these companies over here, and giving them governmental breaks, while saying do not buy from these companies over here and let them suffer current terrifs is pretty Maduro style socialist.

Ordinarily our government doesn't cherry pick certain companies within an industry to sponser, and that's extremely socialist behavior.

As with capitalism, socialism has both good and bad parts imo. Generally speaking, i think of that type of behavior as "bad parts of socialism."

Autos is not the only industry he's done this with either. It's just a really easy example...

Edited By: DerrickICN on Aug 29th 2019, 21:11:52
See Original Post

BROmanceNZ

Member

57

Aug 29th 2019, 20:47:29

Originally posted by Cerberus:
You leftist pricks just LOVE to bash on Trump. Fine. He's not perfect by far, however, he's a hell of a sight better than ANYONE that the Democrats can put up. Leftism destroys nations and peoples. How many times will we have to fight this battle with leftist ideologies?

All you leftists can feel completely entitled to GET THE fluff OUT! Go somewhere that they implement your leftist policies, like Venezuela, or Cuba, or China. See how long they put up with your entitled asses.


“He’s not perfect but at least he’s not Clinton.”

Gotta love the “my fluffty candidate is still better thsn your fluffty candidate” argument. Why do you put up with having fluffty candidates? Why not just change your electoral system to produce better options?

Also, what exactly are the “Leftist Policies” you’re referring to?

Buch

Member

1348

Aug 30th 2019, 0:29:24

Leftist policies?

I don't want to pay for your dumbass to go to college for a liberal arts degree. Get a job pay for it your self. Need a job I'll give ya one.

Why ban certain guns? Knives kill more people than AR's do why not ban them? Alcohol kills more people than guns why not ban that?

Lefties just go by what CNN tells you too. Because you're uneducated about the matter you follow along.

Edited By: Buch on Aug 30th 2019, 0:33:49
See Original Post

Buch

Member

1348

Aug 30th 2019, 0:37:56

Oh and I don't want to pay for your health care.

And I never owned slaves so you can shove your reparations.

What other stupid ideas and free giveaways do they have?

Oh yeah let's open the boarders up that's another great idea

Umm

DerrickICN

Member

3529

Aug 30th 2019, 0:51:50

I feel like single-payer health care which many liberals advocate for means you still pay for your own health care, you just pay the government instead of a private insurance company.

I don't know a ton of white liberals asking for blacks to get reparations.

I, along with most liberals, am opposed to an open border but also don't believe a wall solves much of the problem we have with illegal immigrants. Our visa program and asylum laws are predominantly to blame.

I also don't want guns banned, I'd just like people to get a gun license and disallow private sales off the record...same as a car.

I would like to see secendary education be better funded so people don't come out of college with 20 years of debt in the average field. That's a little excessive so i think you got me there.

breeze

Member

1644

Aug 30th 2019, 0:55:00

I agree Buch

Buch

Member

1348

Aug 30th 2019, 1:12:17

Single payer healthcare where you pay the government...
Tell me one thing the government has ever done a good job at running? Other than the military they do good there.

Your presidential candidates sure seem to think otherwise.

And if you go to school for something worth while you won't have 20 years of debt.

Suicidal

Member

987

Aug 30th 2019, 1:14:00

Buch 2024

DerrickICN

Member

3529

Aug 30th 2019, 4:26:59

Originally posted by Buch:
Single payer healthcare where you pay the government...
Tell me one thing the government has ever done a good job at running? Other than the military they do good there.

Your presidential candidates sure seem to think otherwise.

And if you go to school for something worth while you won't have 20 years of debt.

Yeah i actually say i was young and naive and stupid when i was 17-18. My high school and my guidance councilor REALLY pushed me into pursuing what i was "good at" in high school rather than a dollars field. I've lived alone since I was 15 so I didnt have any sort of parental guidance on the matter either, and maybe just trusted the education system to guide me correctly...

...I've learned with time that i should have went to school for something like mechanical engineering. It suits my brain a bit and would have made sense for me to be working as something like a CAD designer.

Sometimes i do like to cry over my predictably obsolete electronic media degree. But honestly, I feel like there was so many chances for people to tell me it wasn't worth it and i should just join the work force. Frankly that wasn't presented as an option to an honor student like myself....

Oh well....

DerrickICN

Member

3529

Aug 30th 2019, 4:39:26

On single payer...our government doesn't do fluff correctly ever. You're spot on there.

However, our government will NOT pay $150k for a surgery that costs $5k in Europe, but our people have to because they live here. I don't think it's a permanent solution by any means, but right now the insurance companies and big pharma make a fluffload fluffing american citizens in the ass with health care.

I'd be open to a better solution....like maybe even price capping. But it's rrrrreeeeal hard to set a value on things that have cost millions of dollars of research to create and primary costs are just futures that may be outdone in a few years time and never recovered. It's difficult and no idea is perfect.

I'd just prefer my congressman was spending time telling my doctor to go fluff himself charging me $150 a pill for some drug i need rather than having to do it independently atm.

I kind of don't have a better reason i support it atm tho. I just know I'm getting fluffed by the insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies and would be down to roll the dice on something else. Everything is so much cheaper under literally every other system in every other country so we are doing something wrong.

Whether it's universal (medicare for all), grandfathered in (medicare for america), government subsidized (single payer), or even just price regulated (capping commercial health care plans at 175% of prime medicare costs has been proposed by conservatives), I'd be down for any change at this point. I'd literally close my eyes and pull a potential solution out of a hat because our current system is so brutally bad.

Edited By: DerrickICN on Aug 30th 2019, 4:49:41
See Original Post

WH

Member

335

Aug 30th 2019, 6:06:28

Originally posted by DerrickICN:
Mob is the best player from Houston. Prove me wrong. Lol
confirmed mob is the best player from Houston. I used my bonus forum post to vote for him!

BROmanceNZ

Member

57

Aug 30th 2019, 6:20:17

Originally posted by Buch:
Leftist policies?

I don't want to pay for your dumbass to go to college for a liberal arts degree. Get a job pay for it your self. Need a job I'll give ya one.

Why ban certain guns? Knives kill more people than AR's do why not ban them? Alcohol kills more people than guns why not ban that?

Lefties just go by what CNN tells you too. Because you're uneducated about the matter you follow along.

Oh and I don't want to pay for your health care.

And I never owned slaves so you can shove your reparations.

What other stupid ideas and free giveaways do they have?

Oh yeah let's open the boarders up that's another great idea


1. Interesting. Is it just liberal arts degrees that you have problems with or are you against any and all public funding support for tertiary education? The problem, as far as today's job market is concerned, is that it's not enough to walk out of high school before the end and fall into a decent job with an opportunity for progression. If you don't finish high school these days, and don't end up working a trade apprenticeship, then you can look forward to a long, fruitful career as a janitor, warehousing drone, or some other such unskilled job. And what is automation phasing out? Unskilled jobs, like warehousing people. We provide secondary school to students because that was the bare minimum you needed once upon a time to have a good career foundation. It's not enough anymore.

2. Not all knives are legal everywhere. Some States ban things like switchblades or bowie knives, and most places have laws regulating open or concealed carrying of blades. Same with alcohol, purchase and access is restricted by age and by location - you can't buy or consume alcohol under a certain age, and you can't drink wherever you want. You can't drink behind the wheel of a car. Different laws apply to different firearms for different reasons. Despite guns, knives and alcohol being apples, pears and oranges, there are clear examples of different laws applying to different situations in the purchase and ownership of each.

3. If you have private health insurance, you're already paying for other peoples' healthcare. That's what premiums are for - pooling group money to cover the risk of individuals within that group possibly needing the groups' money to pay for healthcare. Either a private company manages that fund (by which their main motivation is to make a profit, meaning payouts for the covered is dependent on the amount of money the private company has agreed to part with) or the government does (where, if your government isn't some corporate cuck run by lobbyists trying to gouge public money, generally the main motivation is to heal the sick as efficiently as possible so they can say they did a good job and get elected again). Both sides of that fence you get people paying for something that others get the benefit of (paid premiums/taxes but don't get sick), and people being delayed or denied what they paid for (insurance claim rejections vs public waiting lists/denied public coverage for specific drugs).

4. I feel like having a discussion with you about the legacy of segregation and institutional racism will probably go as well as pissing in the wind, but I agree that you as an individual person have nothing to pay for in terms of historical mistakes made.

5. Derrick has already put together some great thoughts on open borders, immigration and visa issues. I couldn't contribute half as good as what he has.

Edit: As far as "leftist policies" are concerned, I'm not sure any of those types of policies are the main contributing factors to the downfall of Venezuela, or are what makes China or Cuba the fluffholes nations that they're seen to be. It seems like these are more things seen in places like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK and European nations that, more or less, aren't fluffhole nations by the same measure.

Edited By: BROmanceNZ on Aug 30th 2019, 6:28:04. Reason: Missed referring back to the "Leftist policies" part
See Original Post

The_Hawk

Member

1869

Aug 30th 2019, 10:53:35

Can someone educate me on how tax cuts are considered a socialist policy. I figured it would be the other way around. Tia
Originally posted by Syko_Killa:
Qzjul tells me these reports are all psychological and no mods are abusing privaleges.

Originally posted by Raz:
I have left ICD, and any clan Hawk joins moving forward will have me as a suicider if/when I play.

DerrickICN

Member

3529

Aug 30th 2019, 12:59:59

Technically "tax cuts" are not socialism. "Tax expenditures" are. Like giving the entire nation a 1% tax break is not in any way socialism. However, giving GM specifically a $500m tax break and $600m in govt subsidies is.

If tax breaks advantage certain groups over other groups than they are a socialist form of tax subsidies. Tom Coburn (R-OK) produced a list of Republican endorsed tax subsidies he wants to eliminate, so you can just sort of cherry pick his list to find some socialist tax expenditures. Things like:

The Earned Income Tax Credit
The mortgage interest deduction for second homes
The value of tax exclusion on employer provided health care
Company based tax breaks such as those on NASCAR and the NFL
Tax credits for oil and gas companies
Tax breaks for alternative energy
Subsidies for development of empowerment zones and renewal communities
Etc.

These forms of tax breaks, along with tax plans that only benefit the rich, and, as we've all seen on our tax returns, seem to redistribute wealth to them, isolates the money into the hands of only those up top.

Tax cuts by nature are not socialist. Trump tax cuts on only the rich, industry specific companies, and even individual corporations are a form of wealth redistribution rather than a thing that EVERYONE either benefits from or does not benefit from.

When you pay taxes to pay the police, the fire department, social security, public schools etc, those are socialist taxes. Raising taxes to build a road is socialist. But if you only charge a certain group of people to build the road, and give certain other people a tax break on paying for it, that's a socialist tax break.

I hope that makes sense. I feel like it kinda doesn't.

The_Hawk

Member

1869

Aug 30th 2019, 14:11:14

Sounds like he's damned if he does damned if he doesnt.

So redistribution of wealth ie taxes = socialism
redistribution of wealth ie bail outs = socialism
I dont agree with bailouts.

Still not seeing how allowing people to keep their cash that they earned is considered socialism.
Seems like a spin on tax cuts to make it seem like a socialist policy.
Originally posted by Syko_Killa:
Qzjul tells me these reports are all psychological and no mods are abusing privaleges.

Originally posted by Raz:
I have left ICD, and any clan Hawk joins moving forward will have me as a suicider if/when I play.

DerrickICN

Member

3529

Aug 30th 2019, 14:15:23

Think of it this way. What makes a bailout socialist?

It's essentially that a few companies that are set to fail are given an advantage over the rest of the free market. The government sort of sponsors those businesses and gives them a huge credit to prevent their failure.

In that exact same way, a tax cut on only the wealthiest people represents the exact same type of socialism. A non-equally distributed tax cut that only benefits a select group (i.e. tax expenditures) specifically, is apples to apples.

sinistril

Member

1876

Aug 30th 2019, 14:20:34

Wait... You're arguing that tax cuts are socialism? Thank god we have our basic definitions down. PS: I don't agree that bailouts are socialist either. They're something else entirely. And the problem with bailouts is not even giving some an advantage over the free market. Literally everything could be argued to be socialist if that strange definition was all it took. Steve Jobs very existence would be socialist because he was competent giving him an advantage over the free market.

The problem with bailouts are the incentives they create. It's basically the same problem that comes with insurance: moral hazard. In this case, only the risk is socialized and paid by people not eligible to receive the same kind of insurance. It'd be like if employment insurance was paid for only by people who would be ineligible to receive it if they lost their job.

Bailouts allow corporations to take risks to the point of gambling. Tax cuts do not. Tax cuts create incentives to reinvest money in some part of the economy. The idea is to create more efficient outcomes and increase consumption across the board. High taxes not only crush the spirit of an economy, but governments are traditionally very bad at resource allocation. Not because of incompetence so much as the fact that it is a chaotic system and no human body can possibly be responsive to the pace of change that occurs within the economy. I believe Hayek touched on this fact in a more eloquent way than me lol.

Edited By: sinistril on Aug 30th 2019, 14:46:55

BROmanceNZ

Member

57

Aug 30th 2019, 14:22:22

Originally posted by DerrickICN:

I hope that makes sense. I feel like it kinda doesn't.


That’s because taxes are neither socialist nor capitalist.

Both can utilise taxation to support and protect its system (Adam Smith himself made clear that people should pay, according to their ability, the state for the protection it offers - e.g. police, administration costs of upholding the rule of law etc) but both could, theoretically, reframe “taxes” so that they’re not what we think of them today.

Socialism would see paying for things like healthcare and education as being no different to a business paying operating costs before delivering income to its workers. The workers own the means of production, so the collective decision to pay for such welfare isn’t taxation - it’s an investment. It’s not redistributing wealth because everyone shares equally in the profits of production; there are no richer people to “tax more heavily” than others as everyone shares equally in the profits. There’s no need to tax the people on their income because all state expenses, agreed upon by the people, are paid before income is delivered.

Capitalism could take the free market route and determine that private entities could provide policing and legal protections of the market, meaning no taxes needed to pay for state cops - individuals pay for their own services according to ability and need. Those who cannot afford police and legal protection could receive it anyway from wealthier individuals who see providing it out of their own pocket as being a cost of ensuring those people don’t devolve into lawlessness. It’s technically not a tax because they’re not compelled under threat of state violence to pay it, but they’re still technically paying for the benefit of others. Still, there’s no need for taxes the way we think of them now as the government doesn’t exist to provide anything, and redistribution of wealth takes place within the market’s supply and demand - and those who supposedly work hard and smart reap the rewards.

Taxes are the way we pay for things in line with either side of the ideology while we’re not fully committed to either one.

DerrickICN

Member

3529

Aug 30th 2019, 14:26:55

I mean they can be either.

If you raised taxes to build a school, that's socialism, and then lowered taxes on everyone stimulate the economy, that's capitalism. If you state sponsor a business like GM with $500m in tax subsidies, however, that's socialism.

I'm sort of just painting with grey lines to make an example. Even taxing to pay for the military is a form of socialism I suppose. It's not a flat paint brush.

DerrickICN

Member

3529

Aug 30th 2019, 14:40:06

I think of our current system as having a ton of socialism at the top and a ton of market capitalism at the bottom. The more wealth you acquire, the more social programs you can benefit from. Things like the earned income tax credit, capital gains being 15%, tax benefits for 2nd and 3rd homes, etc are all socialist tax programs designed to only benefit those that had a pile of money in the first place.

My poor ass just pays a flat rate tho. I don't have a way to put my entire check into an IRA and only pay 15% on the returns before taxes because i actually have to live off the money. I can't afford 5 houses so i cant reap those benefits. I don't have racecars so i cant get the NASCAR tax break. Etc. The very bottom is left to fend for itself in a pure capitalism while the more income you acquire the more social programs you become entitled to.

BROmanceNZ

Member

57

Aug 30th 2019, 14:42:37

Originally posted by DerrickICN:
I mean they can be either.

If you raised taxes to build a school, that's socialism, and then lowered taxes on everyone stimulate the economy, that's capitalism. If you state sponsor a business like GM with $500m in tax subsidies, however, that's socialism.

I'm sort of just painting with grey lines to make an example. Even taxing to pay for the military is a form of socialism I suppose. It's not a flat paint brush.


The military offering state protection is required by a state to maintain its authority; paying for it would be required under both socialist and capitalist economies. Again, both could do it through taxes or they could reframe the contribution they receive from the people to either it being an operating cost of the collective profit produced by the people of the state, or the fee for service paid by private market individuals in exchange for the protection to pursue business and capital within its borders.

Why does a company like GM change its mind based on government offered subsidies? It’s the market they’re playing, the competition for business vs the supply and demand of labour.

Why would socialism need taxes to pay for a school if the school is already paid for by the people?

Maybe “welfare” policies is the more appropriate term for these. Corporate or social welfare; taxes just determine who is paying, and how much.

DerrickICN

Member

3529

Aug 30th 2019, 14:49:28

I suppose that in a nutshell is probably the whole problem with the horror surrounding the term "socialism."

Technically a true capitalist military system would be one where the military is privately owned and paid for with voluntary exchange. It doesn't take a brainiac to figure out why that's unrealistic, especially considering what we spend. Thats why the socialist program of the US military was created, where people are taxed to foot the bill.

Same with schools, police/fire, etc.

sinistril

Member

1876

Aug 30th 2019, 15:06:20

Social programs do not imply socialist . Obamacare is not socialist, unlike, say, Cuba's health care system but neither is it capitalist. These two are not inverses of eachother.

sinistril

Member

1876

Aug 30th 2019, 15:09:33

BromanceNZ is exactly right. The military would exist regardless of political system because it is a trait of governments to maintain legitimacy. It's neither capitalist nor socialist. Not everything is falls into these two categories.

BROmanceNZ

Member

57

Aug 30th 2019, 15:14:11

Originally posted by DerrickICN:
I suppose that in a nutshell is probably the whole problem with the horror surrounding the term "socialism."

Technically a true capitalist military system would be one where the military is privately owned and paid for with voluntary exchange. It doesn't take a brainiac to figure out why that's unrealistic, especially considering what we spend. Thats why the socialist program of the US military was created, where people are taxed to foot the bill.

Same with schools, police/fire, etc.


A pure free market capitalist system, definitely. Rational capitalism still recognises that the neutral state, as the monopoly on violence within its territory, is integral to protecting the rights and freedoms of individuals to generate wealth.

Americans are fanatical in their opposition to socialism, sometimes without even the basic knowledge of what socialism is. Buch saying he doesn’t want to pay for anyone else’s healthcare is legitimate and a perfectly reasonable personal position to have. But it’s not socialism because the same mechanism exists in private healthcare (insurance premium individuals pay fund the healthcare of other people who make claims against the same insurance company), so being against it as a socialist policy is a mistake that seems to exist in America’s loaded view of the ideology.

sinistril

Member

1876

Aug 30th 2019, 15:26:35

The logic of a lot of people on what socialism and capitalism are is about the same reasoning as: all crows are black, everything black is a crow!

Buch

Member

1348

Aug 30th 2019, 17:04:37

Originally posted by BROmanceNZ:
Originally posted by Buch:
Leftist policies?

I don't want to pay for your dumbass to go to college for a liberal arts degree. Get a job pay for it your self. Need a job I'll give ya one.

Why ban certain guns? Knives kill more people than AR's do why not ban them? Alcohol kills more people than guns why not ban that?

Lefties just go by what CNN tells you too. Because you're uneducated about the matter you follow along.

Oh and I don't want to pay for your health care.

And I never owned slaves so you can shove your reparations.

What other stupid ideas and free giveaways do they have?

Oh yeah let's open the boarders up that's another great idea


1. Interesting. Is it just liberal arts degrees that you have problems with or are you against any and all public funding support for tertiary education? The problem, as far as today's job market is concerned, is that it's not enough to walk out of high school before the end and fall into a decent job with an opportunity for progression. If you don't finish high school these days, and don't end up working a trade apprenticeship, then you can look forward to a long, fruitful career as a janitor, warehousing drone, or some other such unskilled job. And what is automation phasing out? Unskilled jobs, like warehousing people. We provide secondary school to students because that was the bare minimum you needed once upon a time to have a good career foundation. It's not enough anymore.

2. Not all knives are legal everywhere. Some States ban things like switchblades or bowie knives, and most places have laws regulating open or concealed carrying of blades. Same with alcohol, purchase and access is restricted by age and by location - you can't buy or consume alcohol under a certain age, and you can't drink wherever you want. You can't drink behind the wheel of a car. Different laws apply to different firearms for different reasons. Despite guns, knives and alcohol being apples, pears and oranges, there are clear examples of different laws applying to different situations in the purchase and ownership of each.

3. If you have private health insurance, you're already paying for other peoples' healthcare. That's what premiums are for - pooling group money to cover the risk of individuals within that group possibly needing the groups' money to pay for healthcare. Either a private company manages that fund (by which their main motivation is to make a profit, meaning payouts for the covered is dependent on the amount of money the private company has agreed to part with) or the government does (where, if your government isn't some corporate cuck run by lobbyists trying to gouge public money, generally the main motivation is to heal the sick as efficiently as possible so they can say they did a good job and get elected again). Both sides of that fence you get people paying for something that others get the benefit of (paid premiums/taxes but don't get sick), and people being delayed or denied what they paid for (insurance claim rejections vs public waiting lists/denied public coverage for specific drugs).

4. I feel like having a discussion with you about the legacy of segregation and institutional racism will probably go as well as pissing in the wind, but I agree that you as an individual person have nothing to pay for in terms of historical mistakes made.

5. Derrick has already put together some great thoughts on open borders, immigration and visa issues. I couldn't contribute half as good as what he has.

Edit: As far as "leftist policies" are concerned, I'm not sure any of those types of policies are the main contributing factors to the downfall of Venezuela, or are what makes China or Cuba the fluffholes nations that they're seen to be. It seems like these are more things seen in places like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the UK and European nations that, more or less, aren't fluffhole nations by the same measure.


1. I don't want to pay for anyone's college unpaid for my own. The liberal arts degree thing was just pointing out how lots of people go to college for degrees that will never make money.

2. there are age restrictions and laws for guns to you can't legally just go buy a gun anywhere. Private sales are a grey area but I don't know anyone that would sell a gun to a kid. And there are straw purchase laws.

3. As I said before the government can't run fluff. I'd rather give to a private. Congress would probably just give them selves raises since they're collecting more money.

4. Just stating it as a reason that party will lose votes.

Buch

Member

1348

Aug 30th 2019, 17:14:44

Oh and you guys got that whole new green deal......

Might be good in your big city fantasy land. but will never fly out here. They think they will have farmers votes because of the trade war. You guys want to get rid of their cattle or regulate the hell out of them. At least Trump is trying to help the farmers Democrats want to eliminate them. I believe there's also something about eliminating fossil fuel burning. Try and farm with a battery powered tractor. LMAO awesome ideas

HEMPMAN1

Member

54

Aug 30th 2019, 18:47:58

Buch rules!!! Rock on bro!!

KoHeartsGPA

Member

20,127

Aug 30th 2019, 19:21:00

Originally posted by Buch:
Leftist policies?

I don't want to pay for your dumbass to go to college for a liberal arts degree. Get a job pay for it your self. Need a job I'll give ya one.

Why ban certain guns? Knives kill more people than AR's do why not ban them? Alcohol kills more people than guns why not ban that?

Lefties just go by what CNN tells you too. Because you're uneducated about the matter you follow along.


Easy, because guns can overthrow a government.
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

BROmanceNZ

Member

57

Aug 30th 2019, 19:56:21

Originally posted by Buch:

1. I don't want to pay for anyone's college unpaid for my own. The liberal arts degree thing was just pointing out how lots of people go to college for degrees that will never make money.

2. there are age restrictions and laws for guns to you can't legally just go buy a gun anywhere. Private sales are a grey area but I don't know anyone that would sell a gun to a kid. And there are straw purchase laws.

3. As I said before the government can't run fluff. I'd rather give to a private. Congress would probably just give them selves raises since they're collecting more money.

4. Just stating it as a reason that party will lose votes.


1. The potential earning power of someone with a tertiary qualification is much higher than someone with a high school diploma. And various studies have suggested that degree holders, on average, do earn more over their lifetime than their high school grad friends. The value of degree holders to the economy is higher, particularly if it’s true that many, if not most, skilled jobs (which have higher earnings and better career progression) require more than a high school education. You might not want to pay for someone else’s post-secondary education but the country needs to if it wants to guarantee a stronger economic future.

2. You weren’t asking about general sales, you were questioning what reasons could exist for banning some guns over others - using knives and alcohol as “what about” cause of death arguments. The why is that some see X guns as more dangerous either by design, or because of historical or popular usage in America’s astonishingly high rate of mass shooting incidents. Whether those reasons are right or wrong, the comparison with knives and alcohol fails because they’re completely separate and different dangers, but succeeds as examples of different types of laws applying in some instances to regulate against the risk of harm by specific types (of knives, or of alcohol-fueled situations).

3. It’s ironic that you have a problem with Congress potentially giving themselves payrises with your taxes while insurance companies and Big Pharma are laughing all the way to the bank with your money. They’ve likely done even less to earn it but, because they’re not the government, you likely don’t care.

4. If you have any examples of these reparations to ancestors of slaves, that would be interesting. Regardless, you only have two parties in the US anyway so it’s not like you have a great amount of choice if one party does something you don’t like.

5. As for the “New Green Deal”, I don’t know enough about it to comment.

BROmanceNZ

Member

57

Aug 30th 2019, 20:05:14

Originally posted by KoHeartsGPA:

Easy, because guns can overthrow a government.


They can also be used to murder a lot of innocent people really quickly.

American experience in overthrowing their government: Once. A few centuries ago.
American experience in mass shootings: Feels like every week.

We all know why your 2nd Amendment exists but it feels like that right is being abused.