Offering a suicider reparations only enables him to suicide. Since this is the alliance server I hold the view than untagged countries have no rights; the administrators offer both express and primary to learn the game. I therefor have two problems with it.

One, you are attributing the rights of alliances to any untagged crap country. Alliances have to earn this respect, but you just give it out willy-nilly to a country without any political affiliation. I also retain the notion that 95% of all untagged countries are not new players; that they are veterans with the intention to do something negative or they are someone running a land-farm for someone else.

Two, if you are a friendly alliance with us, then you should not be paying reparations to a player wanting to do us harm. The offer, fulfilled or unfulfilled at the discretion of the suicider, is disrespectful toward our relations. It is further an insult that you think his discretion should reflect how I feel about it. I am offended, that does not mean I will take action against you for doing nothing in-game, it simply means that I am offended.

Your first point is moot since how we conduct ourselves with untags is none of your business, nor anyone else's.

Your second point is more valid, but is crippled by the fact that you allowed a PDM member to assist in a KR without even asking us. Do we have an FDP? Do we have an LDP? Do we have even a uNAP? No, we have a courtesy DNH, which was only given like...a week ago.

Also, your entire tone is aggressive, which ALSO doesn't speak of your friendliness.

Finally, friends don't AUTOMATICALLY threaten their friends with war, as you've done.

"Your first point is moot since how we conduct ourselves with untags is none of your business, nor anyone else's."

It is our business, if he decides to suicide on us with the resources you send him.

You are right, that country did not do anything to PDM, but the PDMer helping certainly helped us, or some other unsuspecting netgainers, from a country only stocking warfare tech... Is it the moral thing to apologise to someone planning to ruin someones set. To me it sounds like an attempt to dissuade suiciders from hitting you. Last week when signing the DNH the friends talk was being played up, now its being played down.

I don't see anyone threatening war here, but it is quite clear that relations have been adversely effected.

Aponic told me by pm that if we gave the country reps, SoF would FS us. Sounds like a threat to me.

Does that sound very friendly to you?

If untaggeds have no rights, then what reason do they have to refrain from suiciding on SoF? I suggest that all untaggeds in the game right now should suicide on SoF in defense of the rights of untaggeds. If you deny untaggeds rights, then you deny them the responsibility to behave responsibly with their country.

If I were sof I would fs you, but that's just because you're incredibly annoying. I havnt even read the thread.

Bollocks, the game is stacked massively in favour of the suicider, I'd know.

Find any low defence country in the game (even if its not in your target alliance). Grab a bunch of its stock, buy jets. Within 50 turns its not hard to have 10m jets + oil, because there will be at least a dozen idiots in a game with 1000ish players. When at 10m jets, grab grab grab, steal more stock. 150% dict buy a bunch of troops and turrets and you can be a 15m gs/br break with stock and a huge spal in one run of turns.

"If a player quits cause he cant protect his land that is his fault for being stupid, its not one rule for some and one rule for others, a country being farmed who quits does not have much options to defend themselves."

With what i've just said, almost anyone in the game can be a target for a suicider if its competent, therefore it is hardly his own fault, while the untagged being farmed has the option of joining an alliance! Another thing you've missed while being away is that 90% of new players join the primary server now.

No it doesn't, but I said nothing posted "here" implied that we were prepared to FS you. However, if I was aponic, I'd be pushing for a FS on the basis of posting his PM in a public board.

TAN AAN' MARTIAN SITTIN IN A TREE

Just showing you how "friendly" you guys have been in response to this.

All I have seen in this thread and by pm is aggressiveness from SoF. None of this "friendly"ness you guys say we had and is now deteriorating.

I can't imagine Omega giving us this sort of response if this was happening to them.

You guys used one of our members to kill YOUR suicider without informing us. Whether he volunteered or not is irrelevant -- SoF should have told him to stay out of it.

Also, don't bother trying to take the moral high ground here. Whether it was stated publicly or not, SoF has threatened to FS Paradigm simply because you think we shouldn't object when you use our resources when it suits you.

AND, to make this situation even more hilarious, the guy hasn't even ASKED for reps at all. Yet you guys are acting like it's all said and done.

Stop flipping out and relax. If the guy asks for reps, as a courtesy, I'll let you know (although not which #).

I want reps from SoF and PDM for the wasted land.

ill give you a rep, representation of sof when i grab the fluff out of you

"Again that low defence country that has stock has the option to buy defence. with all the crazy policies around im suprised thier is not one where you can grab that country to get your land back for not having enough defence and causing the suicider to be able to get 10mill jets.

Ether way that suicider has to get 10mill jets. to do that he has to play a fluff load turns (bassically impossible as a untagged) or get stock of a low defence netter."

It doesn't take a ton of turns. If some suicider happens to find say an Evo/LaF/Omega/etc player with 500m bushels that just returned off the market and a low break. He can grab that target 10 times and get 100m+ bushels; it only takes 1 person in the server for this to happen. He then buy jets and stock steal from people with defence in SoF and hit those people with high defence and take their stock etc. We just took pre-emptive action.

The PDM guy decided to help us. An imminent suicider was taken out; all is good. Then PDM come out with a statement apologising to the imminent suicider, in an attempt to either cover their tracks or to score a cheap political point and an action that would strengthen the restart of somebody after us. I understand the position you are taking, we just disagree completely.

Why should SoF deny him the ability to him?

He isn't an SoF member so theoretically if you believe that an alliance has control of its countries (which is not something I try to enforce in PDM) then it would be up to us to make him not hit.

I put the blame squarely on the member for his actions - not SoF or PDM =P I do not believe in killing untags who have not had anything to do with us, but I do believe in helping allies if they have problems. When it is preventative measures against a perceived threat then things become a gray area but I really don't think this is worth fighting over =P

Why would we encourage suiciders to hit SoF?

Why would we seek brownie points trying to dissuade a so-called suicider who never even TOUCHED our alliance?

Why would we want to intentionally strengthen a suicider so they could go after SoF?

Dude, just take it for what it is. We feel that we wronged that country, and we want to make up for it. As I said in my earlier post, he was going to die ANYWAYS, and that will be taken into considering if he asks for reps. It's not like he's going to get a billion dollars or anything.

You guys are making a big deal out of nothing.

I beg you to grab me... I will fluff SoF up the old school way.
First retal you 200% + an extra 50% wait until I can go on vacation drop tag, vacation, and then come out an ensure you don't have anything resembling a top 10. Then rinse and repeat for as many sets as I can until I get bored. I am not a netter, and netting bores me.. Please give me a reason.
None of this a few grabs = suicide bullfluff, either.

A project like this might even interest my co-workers to play this dead game for a few sets.

PM me if you want my country number.

Detmer is smart.

Tan Sounds stupid. Apoligizing to an untagged... wow. Then, Offering it's restart FA... Wow w hat would that be, 500 troops? Stupid. Then to piss off another alliance, blah. Tan should just shut up.

As for the whole Untagged rights blah blah blah. Alliance is not for noobs. Alliance is not the place to play if your going solo. IF someone has a problem with SOF killing off Untags who pose a threat, do something about it, OR Shut the fluff up. Nobody's going to do anything about it, because everyone knows that the untaggs doing this, are vet players, who are purposely trying to F' with SOF.

I can probally guess who's behind it from posts I saw last set, but I won't point any fingers, othewise Thomas will come on here to troll me:)

i can solve this problem.

i will volunteer myself to receive the reparations in the place of the untagged from PDM.

that way the reps will not be used to suicide SoF and PDM can pay the reps that they dearly want to pay ;P

Apparently you just don't get it that we have a problem with you FAing a player with intent to suicide on us. You also seem to think we have mind control over your players and we are responsible for their actions more than they are or you are. Alliances cooperating to kill suiciders is good for the game, not the opposite.

Apo: You're full of it. I didn't suicide you and wasn't planning on it, and I'm still not planning on it. You guys are looking to pick fights, and now are trying to start a war over nothing. You guys have been stocking turns for a while.

Your argument has no merit and has no basis in reality.

Here are my previous countries... look at what a suicider I am, give me a break. I came back to check out how the game was doing, and all you guys are wanting to do is drive people out of the game.

http://alliance.www.earthempires.com/serverprofile?id=3162

I have no vested interest in this outside of Reps for wasting land that could have been farmed and creating problems for HLW...

but where is the intent to suicide? Really I just don't get it I mean I know his spyop because I was planning on grabbing him up some, I just don't see what would bring SoF to the conclusion.

I really only want some of his acres because he was a pretty sweet target for PSes.

I had warfare tech and sdi tech, that was probably threatening to them. I also did numerous standard spy ops on one of their guys on or about april 23rd. The final straw (for them) was when I bought up to about 2.5m jets and then PS'ed them all away to do one retal on a LaF guy.

Considering all the other untags that were hitting us, for no apparent reason - do you really think we'd rather wait to be hit first then take the suicider out?

Prevention is better than cure I say.

Of course you may not have actually hit/suicide us, but why wait for something to actually happen before removing the possible threat?

You obviously know how to play the game and have said so yourself. Why are you still insistent on playing untagged in an alliance server? Primary just started, create a country there perhaps?

Alliance server needs people to play... whether its untagged or in their old alliances. Instead of telling old vets who come back to go elsewhere, they should be encouraged to stay.

I agree and many alliances do this but honestly the threat was very minimal at that point. If the spyops were done to someone that hit him there is absolutely no reason and elsewise very little reason. If he had high-spal and opped a number of your countries I would say for sure.

Why not play untagged? You never wanted to retal a tag you don't like hard or topfeed them? You never wanted to play an action game rather than a slow moving Sudoku game.

I was thinking about playing untagged my first set back or playing in a different alliance that was less pacted...

sof = GWB.

I never said that this server doesn't need more players, of course it does. Any new players that join the game are directed to the solo servers to try the game out. The new/old returning players that do join the alliance server are spammed to join an alliance. If you remain untagged, you just get farmed to oblivion everyday (judging by the news) and end up quitting? Joining any alliance will prevent you getting farmed everyday (unless the alliance that you just joined just got declared war upon)

that explains why SoF killed you then. given the history of what's happening to them this reset, i would assume your multiple spy ops probably made them antsy

i have no problems with 119 playing this server untagged, but suiciding random people is not cool

Why not join an alliance that isn't pacted to that alliance you don't like? If you want to play untagged, why not just play in the solo servers?

If there was a retal on tag that I did/didn't like, I would take it regardless.

Oh that got messed up a bit :P

Joining an alliance is not what I wanted to do this set. I am already a member of the alliance you are in Cypress (so long as you haven't deleted me). I wanted to get the lay of the land and see if the game was worth coming back to. Playing and watching the server the past few weeks tells me that no, its not worth joining in an Alliance next set.

The way I play in an alliance is that I am active and I attempt to run the best country I can. It takes a lot more time than it is worth to me, and I am unable to just half-ass being a member. So it is much easier for me to screw around and see how well I can do untagged, while providing additional farmland to the server.

Of course its not cool, and that's why I don't do it. I have been suicided on and ruined my top 5 finish. Its not fun.

He didn't really suicide the first time around. He wasn't pacted to any of the alliances he hit although the amount of grabs he did to each alliance was enough to warrant a kill. I still would not call that an actual suicide. Just being a fluff. If a semi-decent sized alliance would do it they would likely be killed but the next set I bet they got some pacts from people who didn't want the trouble.

How does playing untagged in an alliance server give you a "lay of the land"?

I don't really know what you were expecting.

If I didn't want to bother with all the politics and being able to play how/when I want, I would just create a country in Primary and/or Tournament and "attempt to run the best country I can" as you put it. It gives you, or anyone else for that matter, a chance to play the game in an environment that suits their needs?

A lay of the land? Well, rules have changed and so have formulas. It looks like killing has also changed, as I find it almost impossible to wall with less than 200 population left. The private market sell prices are different and oil seems to be more expensive than I remember it being. Oh yeah, the last changed i've found out about was the ability for a leader to see all the failed non-harmful spyops done. There's a lot of small things that have changed, and its nice to get back into the swing of things if I was going to join a clan somewhere.

a leader being able to see failed non-harmful ops is morally WRONG and shows all that is wrong with alliances in this game.

All the things that you mentioned could be done if you were tagged and some of them could have been done if you were playing on the solo servers.

Even I didn't know about the leaders being able to see all the failed non-harmful spyops - doesn't really change anything for me though.

clarification: my comment bout the ops not really about this issue in this thread. More about the general issue of being able to see ops as being bad in my opinion, and as was stated many others on the B&S

I don't see what the big deal is with this? Won't the person that owns the defending country be able to see/post those failed ops anyway?

But only when said person is online

You can identify an FS coming easier as you would normally have to wait a few of your members to report it, and some DO wait 18 hours for those extra 6 turns

(extra 3. assuming they log on every 12 instead.)

maybe morally wrong is a bit strong in the wording:p

more it's bad for the game.

there should be a need to report the ops to leaders from memberships, and it's more political fun if the leader doesn't 100% know if the member is telling the truth or not ;-)

I don't know much about this issue - when/how are leaders able to see these failed ops?

when we login :P

Doing those spyops could have been done while tagged, but it would have caused FA problems.

Stonewalling (while not my intention to start the set, but knowing how alliance worked I figured would happen eventuallY) can be done in a tag, but I haven't done it in a while so it was good to get the feel of changes made and how I should adjust. I would not want to be in a close war trying to stonewall and die the way I did these last two times.

I understand that you don't see why I am playing this server, and that I should just leave. It's your opinion, and I have mine. It won't be the first time you and I disagreed.

When the tag admins log into their country, the Clan news shows up just like what you have for your country news.

now you sound like RoCK when mehul added tags to the game back in 1999 ;)

Your more when welcome to play 119, but if we feel we have reasons to kill you we will and its nothin personal leave us alone and we leave you alone

You said absolutely nothing here. One, it is easy to stonewall with under 200 pop, run batches of 5 turns and watch the hits roll in. Two, you could have seen any of these changes while playing tagged on this server, or any of the other servers. If you were really trying to 'test' then you would have played FFA where you get 16 countries with the exact same formulas. Three, This is the ALLIANCE SERVER; if you play untagged, you have no rights.

New players won't be quitting as they either do not play this server, or they join an alliance. If you have a problem with reading the name of the server and applying some common sense, go quit already. No one wants to hear more of your whining while you hide behind a new handle and point to a game profile with history from this one reset. You could have been setting up to suicide us. Certainly after getting killed once by us and being aware of our situation, you could have figured out that it was a bad idea to spy us, let alone 20 times. Congratulations on your whine and cheese thread.