Come on now. A reset is what, 2 months? Conservatively, let's say it takes 2 resets (it won't) to get this done right (it will never) then that's 4 months to play by the rules haphazardly put together and implemented in the first place. The system will be abused to negatively affect the ones intended to help by those choosing to stick it out and many will have left by then.

I do not want to take anything away from those who contribute to this game.

I do feel however that the changes and focus of any attention when taking about helping this game are on keeping this game alive instead of actually moving it forward into ‘growth’.

A lot of the issues we are talking about now only facilitate the current tiny player base.

I would guess most of these issues are solved naturally with a larger player base.

There is no variety in the game in its current size which means old player grudges and suiciders have more impact..

Add in more players and all of a sudden those who want to war can war and those who want to net can net.

What you can’t code is a fix to ‘people’s poor attitudes without affecting those who contribute positively to the game.

rather then focus on fixing negative behaviour we should create positive
Opportunities for game growth and naturally I believe these hyper close issues will resolve themselves.

Thing is the community reqruits a lot of people but they don't stay for very long. LaF for instance has had at least 100 members in the last 2.5 years (my time there) but people stick around for 1-3 resets then leave, then come back again perhaps a few years later. LaF might be typical or LaF might be extreme in this regard but for us at least the flow of players in and out is immense. And I have a very good idea of why people leave the game when it comes to our members at least.

Gerdler it's not hard to see why people leave.

People come, enjoy the game (net or war) and I think the game would have pretty decent retention rate. The issue is that those who want to net in peace can't and those who want to war, can't do it without pissing off netters.

Like I keep saying putting in effort to fix a game with these small numbers is crazy. (Again no offense intended for those trying to help).

I don't think the issues that exist today would exist with 1000+ real players and bots...

This turnover rate is quite typical of the larger Alliances. SoF and LAF have been similar in this regard since the advent of EE. The same trend has existed in other tags such as MD, SOL and Rage.

The best chance the game has at increasing member retention is to get more players.

There are other simpler fixes (and also other more elaborate fixes) to suiciders which could be implemented without drastically changing the game.

Clan GDI may or may not be a good thing, it will really depend on what is actually deployed. I will however caution on MMRs if done incorrectly it will push All-xers to start hitting bots, dropping all available bots into much deeper DRs thereby tempting much more aggressive players to hit non-bot countries. top countries rarely care how they achieve land goal in x amount of turns and will adjust accordingly. If bots become nonviable they will find alternate means.

Personally I feel growing the player base would solve many issues... but it would take few things to accomplish.

the community as a whole would need to be more helpful toward newer players, teach them how to play the game. guide them thru what works and what does not work.share your experiences openly.

let the past go, it happened, it's over done and gone, you cannot change it so move on toward a more positive mode of game play. basically just enjoy the game and allow others to do the same.

next is the big one -- do we have a graphic artist in house ??? alternately get a quote from freelance.com then use gofundme / indiegogo to fund the project.

make it so players click on a picture of a building and get action submenus and small report boxes for the building they clicked on.

place the buildings on an isometric grid, and make it so buildings change as you get more of that type of building. maybe something like 12-15 seperate designs per building type and it changes based on number of acres built with this building.

take a look at forge of empires and Elvenar they are basically the same as what we have here in that they are still at their core text based games the wrapping is just prettier to look at.

sub menus in the building can be like:

Enterprise Zones
-- Build Ent: ------- |____|
-- Teardown Ent: ---- |____|
-- Explore Land ----- |____|
-- Cash Turns: ------ |____|
-- Tech Turns: ------ |____|
-- Buy Biz Tech: ---- |____| -- Public |____| -- current Price on market
-- Sell Biz Tech: --- |____| -- Public |____||____|-- $ amount to sell at
-- Buy Food: -------- |____| -- PM |____| / Public |____| -- Unit dropdown with price
-- Buy Military: ---- |____| -- PM |____| / Public |____| -- Unit dropdown with price

Residences
-- Build Res ------- |____|
-- Teardown Res: --- |____|
-- Explore Land ---- |____|
-- Cash Turns: ----- |____|
-- Tech Turns: ----- |____|
-- Buy Res Tech: --- |____| -- Public |____| -- current Price on market
-- Sell Res Tech: -- |____| -- Public |____| -- |____| -- $ amount to sell at
-- Buy Food: ------- |____| -- PM |____| / Public |____| -- Unit dropdown with price
-- Buy Military: --- |____| -- PM |____| / Public |____| -- Unit dropdown with price

Industrial Complexes
-- Build Indies ---- |____|
-- Teardown Ind: --- |____|
-- Explore Land ---- |____|
-- Cash Turns: ----- |____|
-- Tech Turns: ----- |____|
-- Buy Ind Tech: --- |____| -- Public |____|
-- Sell Ind Tech: -- |____| -- Public |____|
-- Buy Food: ------- |____| -- PM |____| / Public |____|
-- Sell Mil Units -- |____| -- PM |____| / Public |____|
-- Buy Military: --- |____| -- PM |____| / Public |____|

etc and similar for:
Military Bases
Research Labs
Farms
Oil Rigs
Construction Sites
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

create multiple animations for each of the various actions -- display based on size of action
allow player to toggle animations on and off

PURCHASES
BUILD
CASH
EXPLORE
MARKET
RESEARCH
RELATIONS
SPY CENTER
WAR ROOM
MESSAGES
REPORTS


I can basically do the Use Cases, and maybe some rudimentary artwork for a pro to look at as a starting point.

aS for my ability to document this -- here is an example:
EarthEmpires UserManual (draft) -- this is from a few years back but should still work for new players:
https://www.luminpdf.com/.../5db6d3f990888000197ebfd0

Tigress, that is an extremely well thought out post and I think more aligned with improvements to the game that would actually help grow our player base and also increase player retention. More ideas like this are what the game needs. Your manual is probably more useful than the wiki in the state it currently exists.


But have you thought about what would happen if one of these new players grabs Laf??? What rules should be put in place to prevent that?

Your comments would go a lot farther without the constant jabs at LaF. It makes you seem biased.

I agree with what tf said up until the LaF part.

I don't care. Besides, I bet I was in Laf well before many current members.

laf wont even use clanGDI as its proposed so i dont get what the point of saying its for our benefit is

Lame post made by galleri that had no common sense or relevance.
Keep scrolling needs
Sinistril, I don't own a purse.

"TBD on what that will entail, but I'll be working on it then. I may turn it on mid-round so consider this your warning." - Pang

What exactly were we supposed to complain about here? If there were complaints imagine the response- "he hasn't even said what clan GDI is yet!"

Why didn't you ask? ;)
Pang had some ideas, I am sure if asked he would have shared. Thus the discussion would have been made.

Galleri, he did kinda leave it up in the air with what he was working on.

Your mom leaves it up in the air :P

Fine, you all ignore me.

Ha, but tbd means what it does to be determined. I should not have to ask what exactly is going on. If he wants to tell me he can, but I am not going to ask because if it is going to be something that will impact the base I would think he would talk to everyone about it first.

#ButWhatDoIknow
#MakeHashTagsWork
#ThisWillLeadTo1killPolicysForWarTags
#EatsPopcorn

#isaidleavemealone
#yourmommakeshashtagswork
#yourmomeatspopcorn

Careful tfm. U might get mod abused. Weezy got kicked out of irc cause he had pang in his name

lol@urbandictionary
i actually remember people in earth using panger as an insult

Pang
It is a slang term for "disrespect". Just like the word fluff, it can be used in a variety of ways.
1. Dude, why are you panging me?
2. That was so pang.

3. Dave is such a panger.

The question I'd ask to the vehement supporters of this is what do you want this to accomplish and is this the best way to accomplish it? Justify that it's the best way.

Yeah, I get your point. But the point is that it's a really, really, gloriously bad point, no offense. Imagine someone breaks into your car and steals your purse, you find the person, and the judge tells you that you no longer have a right to your purse because you didn't say anything when it was being stolen. ???

Thanks for the reminder, I need to redo this when I get home.

I support the purpose because I think that is the only way netting will be viable more than as a once in a decade experience in 1a.

I do not think its the best way to achieve it but the alternative is so complex it wont be done since it would involve changing so many formulas that it would most certainly mess something else up as well. This way is simple enough that we have a dev working on it and its halfway done afaik already, and on top of that it only affects netters and griefers while war isnt affected at all by this.

Some people have suggested we use mod action to delete people who play against the spirit of the game but this will require constant work by mods, and not only that but the damage will still be done unless countries are reset.

So it may not be the best solution but it can solve the issue and its the only solution on offer.

And has been stated by enshula LaF might not even join Clan GDI if the costs are too high, but Im sure that if LaF, Monsters, Evo, PS and Omega all come to that same conclusion and suicides and blindsides of netters keep happening because no one joins clan GDI then Pang will have to adress this. Same thing if it proves too strong.

So how come almost nothing has been said about the best post in all four pages of this thread? We got one mod trying her damnedest to be as obtuse as she possibly can to any comments and nobody else even saying anything about the Tigress post.

Imagine taking what she said having a browser-based version, maybe also work on getting it into an app and something you can put on Facebook or Instagram and advertise. even if we go just browser-based it sounds a lot better than sitting here making snide comments to everyone else and wondering why the community is dying

Because as generous as the offer of work is, it's putting lipstick on a pig.

Being buttfluffed by a suicider won't feel any better if you read your country news in a pretty UI.

TIGRESS, DON'T FORGET EXPLOSIONS

You are correct. I am horrible and terrible person and a fluffty mod.
The entire loss of players is due to me.

The new UI is available already to play in and you are encouraged to do so. EE is still a text based game but its got some more modern mobile friendly functionality and whatnot. I feel like some suggestions are basically "Well it shouldnt be a text based game its not modern".

As for growing the game from my point of view and apparently also Xyle agrees(and afaik also Pang from my talks with him) with me that player retention needs to rise and that will automatically grow the game at least a bit. Further, if admins are to make a reqruitment effort that is going to be pretty meaningless until player retention has risen.

As for my suggestions to make retention of old players better:
1. Griefing has to be curbed.
2. Some balance changes need to be done both in terms of netting and war.

For NEW players to stay interested if they find their way here:
1. The UI has to be modernized and mobile friendly (this is largely being done)
2. Public guides perhaps in the wiki needs to be complete, up to date and well written or a mentorship program of some kind may be implemented. Either way some kind of effort from the admin to make it so that new players understand what they are doing and can work on learning the game on their own.

I quickly skimmed the thread and looks like only one person is against applying the protection versus untaggeds. The issues raised are the ones separating relations between clans.

I’m not sure sure any of the netting clans have that much of a concern with the other legit tags. As a few have mentioned sometimes it sucks to have the war tags dictate how you play but that’s been the name of the game for a long time. Biggest issue for me and I think many is just the amount of damage a scrub can do to a competing country with minimal effort.

The counter argument of be well defended isn’t a good one. It’s impossible to compete with other less abused tags. Having a sufficient spal at full acres isn’t going to happen. So it’s more a game of chance- who doesn’t get targeted then skill.

That’s what I’d like to see gone. I’ll admit that I don’t hate the idea of the alliance I’m in having control of its own fate as well but that’s less important

I love this sorta stuff -- this is something that has been missing for a long time -- community driven content. For all the complaints about how we don't have a good ecosystem to grow the userbase, this is the sort of stuff that is entirely within control of the player base to make positive contributions! We've had so many great contributions in that arena from the community but I feel like we've generally fallen off over the last 7 or 8 years compared to the strong push we had at the start. I think I had the same feedback before with this doc, but wasn't as energized with development as I have been over the last year-ish.

I'd love to see that sort of content in a web interface so it can be indexed by Google -- maybe the wiki needs cleaning, etc.

re: overall mechanics -> I posted topics about this while it's things are still in progress and the end mechanic changes are in flex so I could get feedback and think about ways to improve whatever we implement. Obviously not everyone is going to be happy -- and it's quite possible we make some folks upset we didn't go far enough and others upset we went to far with the same changeset -- but I think the idea of leaving things as is hasn't been working and needs to be shaken up. I'm not replying to every single post, but I'm reading them as I work through this stuff.

I'm looking at these changes through a number of lenses, some I've mentioned on this thread, but one of them is does this make the server a better place for returning members and for growing the community? That is the intention of everyone involved with this project and I assume it's the net outcome that everyone here wants -- regardless of whether you agree with what we roll out being the direction to take.

thats h*rsesh*t players gave u plenty of idea's.. i dont remember seeing anyone pushing for this..

Im sure some players were. Its happening why dont we all just wait and see how it actually works...

I’m guilty of this sometimes myself but it would be great if we could just have pleasant, productive, charitable conversations

i dont mind good convo's as long as the narrative isnt bullsh*t

If a tag or particular player is being repeatedly targeted - so much so that you feel the increased expenses would be a consistent unfair disadvantage to you specifically rather than a blanket (and fair) inconvenience equally applied to most players - that may be a cue for you to ask yourself why that is happening. Maybe, just maybe, you are being targeted for a reason other than you are just an awesome player and other players are jealous.

^Just one of many thoughts I have already voiced in a more limited forum area audience or perhaps from time to time on irc/discord if I've had spare time and enough bourbon that evening. I generally don't have the time or energy to retype the same paragraphs and debate with walls of text. I'll only say that I fear this could easily be headed further in a direction of player/clan isolation in what is supposed to be an interactive game where you must pact, negotiate, fight for and defend your right to a top rank. We've been headed further down this dark path for a while now, especially on the Alliance server, which I find to be very disappointing.

That said, I appreciate the admins taking the time to contribute to game coding and showing an active interest in game development and increasing the player-base

[SUG] Require players to join an alliance in Alliance server

I've had people pitching clan GDI and formal in-game pacting ideas to me for as long as I can remember.

The last big change we implemented in order to improve the gameplay experience on the Alliance server was the restart bonus stuff which came out of a similar vein of "years of folks asking for it generally"

Please don't say things like "people don't want this change" just because you specifically aren't pushing for it. It doesn't help the discussion -- ironic since you're talking about false narratives.

Tigress that is a beautiful post and guide. I agree with Pang about the wiki (though iir, there was issues with ee wiki).
<3
Love,
the flufftiest and crappiest mod

I’m not really personally being targeted. This was the first set in a while I’ve been hit. A bunch of random BRs. Most of the countries I’ve seen targeted get hit simply because they’re the biggest/best. Ask En4 how many times he’s been hit. There’s a target on LaF because we’re the biggest and generally have the best countries.During the last set LaF warred Monsters was hit. So what’s the motivation? 99% of it is people just being fluffs.

I don’t know if you like to put months time into something just to have someone wreck it near the end but I have about zero interest. There are dozens of threads on why it’s not feasible under current conditions to completely defend yourself and win. Like Gerdler said, this change prevents suiciders from hitting you, allows war tags to war without significant formula change.

them damn ducks again :p

actually to do what I am proposing, would take a deep dive into the code and mechanics of the game. I know the post I made makes it sound simple and easy, but it would be far from that. to create modules that call many different functions from a set of centralized libraries is akin to a complete rewrite of the game. However in doing this exercise you can keep the spirit of the game itself alive while making the necessary changes to achieve the balance we as a community would need to agree to. many of the more basic formulas would not need to change i.e production rates explore build per turn.

what could change however is how diplomacy works in the sense of what you can and cannot hit , while war tags may see it as nerfing their potential to attack whatever they want it would be sacrifice in the sense of allowing for tags willing to mentor new players to grow. You could make it so even those tags can only use this mechanism for an agreed upon number of resets, and then need to play outside of said protection. The clans internally can make it so only players who stayed and participated in the non-protected reset are brought back in the next round. If you abandon the tag during hard time then you wait for 2-3 reset before you can tag back up with those you left to fend for themselves. You earn your place in the tag and tested for your loyalty to the tag. this may seem foreign to some, but this is how you build up strong clans, where members are willing to fight for those next to them.

what is also desperately needed is a sense of ownership. the key here is to allow players to create their own personal profile pages. a simple wysiwyg editor that allows for pictures, perhaps a video or two and a little html code can go a long way in providing player retention. Player designs it the way they want within PG13 norms and highlights what they feel this game is all about. It also creates a much richer experience for newer players to explore thru the various profiles and get a feel for the player-base. What are your war stats, and or net-gaining stats.. did a player just retal someone for 6k+acres and they need a place to memorialize it, this would give them the opportunity to do so. give the players something they own for themselves and something to play with and be creative with outside of the game and forums. Countries disappear, forum post get buried, profile page remains upfront and it is a evolving self expression of the player representing their own personal experiences with the game. Their friends, clan-mates, along with their best and worst moments. You could probably lure a lot of old timers back in if they had the ability to memorialize their years of playing this game on their own set of pages.

any way I'll leave this be. Pang I will need to re-read your post before replying.

The hierarchy of 1a has always been a desirable function of playing the server. Lots of current players land as best evers for a variety of different reasons. You're certainly on the right track. It's something the hardcore numbers peeps don't really have eyes on but politics are such an integral function. That's why i dislike isolationist changes.

hi galleri you have my respect

anyone willing to take time out of their own personal life to make a game more enjoyable for others has earned it thru their own actions. besides modding is one of those thankless jobs, where balanced decisions with the best of intentions is just gonna piss someone off somewhere at some point in time ;) I don't know how pang sucker you into it, but next time I'm pretty sure you will know to run, hide and only come back out when a new mod is announced :P

Very naive post by Primeval. He can't possibly believe what he is typing lol.

can we get a clarification that currently the plan is

if your in clanGDI then you need to declare war as an individual to hit anyone including untagged bots limiting you to 1 target per 48 hours

therefore making clanGDI useless for netters and not a concern for warmongers to freak out over

only if that limitation is not in place to cost and mmr matter, and ways of bypassing clan gdi like tags declaring war

edit:
with my position being that as an alliance server protections and benefits shouldnt apply to those who choose to be untagged +bots

so restart bonus, clangdi restrictions, maybe normal gdi restrictions, maybe humanitarians shouldnt benefit untagged

If it were left here I don't even know why there would need to be a cost and MMR associated to protect tagged players from untagged ones. This is alliance server and having a tag of x amount of players should afford you that protection unless you are hitting said human/untagged players.

I honestly do not think LaF has much to do with the direction in which the game is being developed. If anything, LaF is looking for ways to grow the player base. They are just as crippled as any other alliance in having to adjust to the smaller player base.

In all honesty they cannot at this point create any sub-tags to take advantage of any potential game mechanics being introduced.

We all collectively recognize the player-base needs to grow, we need much younger blood to join in, the current base is older with many other RL responsibilities hampering their ability to play or even contribute like they did 10-15 years ago.

We also know this is not some fancy Facebook FarmVille game. yet we still need a way for this game to evolve so it appeals to a 16-25 year old crowd. 20 years ago the game was cutting edge, with it's ability to sustain 40K countries on a server. Now if could get 10% of that and retain it we would all consider it fairly awesome.

a main question here is what made you stick around for all these years? Relationships aside, what is it about the game itself that appeals to you. Concentrate on those, aspects, and think back to when you first started playing and did not know anyone, what was it that kept you coming back.

Personally for the most part I enjoy the math involved, the spreadsheets, and having to think about the moves being made. For me I would say in today's day and age your best candidates will be found in chess clubs, math clubs, physics, and stem programs. You are not going to attract gamers who primarily play 1st person shooters in any large numbers and retain them. Ditto for for players who play Sims, and are paying attention to minute details of the city they are playing.

On the flip-side of this is the brutal fact new players are not going to stick around if they get their asses handed to them reset after reset. This problem goes way back and back then it was more about RD bots and multies than suiciders. If you want the game to grow then you need to pass that torch to a newer generation and teach them what you know about it. Take the time to write up guides and strategies, answer the questions being asked etc.