pretty much yeah. At the point things started going wrong for ely it was already too late to do anything about it for this reset.

I'm well aware of what arrogance means. If you are seeing it in my posts then it is only because you want it to be there.

Pain: If they built better countries from the beginning then they wouldn't get hit, that is the point. You can't point to what happened this reset and say "see you are wrong" because they didn't do what they needed to do this reset, thus there is no basis for the analysis. Aka you can't point to crappy countries as an example of why running good countries won't work. That doesn't make sense.

I don't need to put more control on my members. People are free to grab whoever they want so long as there is no pact in place.

rofl no it doesn't teach them HOW to, it shows them that they NEED to. Since when was it our job to teach them to? We have our own members to train and teach, if you want to learn from us then join our organization heh.

But beyond that we also outright TOLD them what they needed to do with their countries, flat our told them how to do it. But people decided that complaining was a more viable option than trying to do something for themselves.

How is it arrogance? It definitely isn't.

I find the opinions of people like you pretty funny as well Ruth. Funny in that they are so ridiculous it is laughable.

telling people to play better countries isn't a bad response, it is an appropriate response.

Take some responsibility for your countries inadequencies and your lack of members, as both are your fault.

Did we grab you a lot this reset? of course, but we did so because you were in a position where doing so was possible. LaF didn't put you in that position, you go there yourself through a long string of bad choices.

"What do you do when you have differing retal policies from the peopel you grabbed?"

You can do one, or a combination of: argue/debate, negotiate, threaten, instigate, comprimise, force hands.

PoW and HAN were also in fog

congrats Killa on finally ending your plight.

PS Milton sucks

I agree

no I said it right the first time. Alliance has always been the absolute worst for bottomfeeding.

if you want bottomfeeding to to a different server?

But hasn't alliance traditionally been the bottomfeeding server? It seems your argument should be flipped, if you want to AVOID bottomfeeding then go to a different server.

Regarding the pacting issue. It doesn't make much sense to me to form pacts that revolve around " no warring" but still grabbing.

Traditionally (although not so much lately) wars start due to grabbing (or over grabbing) issues. The point of pacts were to aviod wars through avoiding hit exchanges.

per 72 hours? hah

Alliances existed for quite a while before alliance wide retals first started showing up. In fact when alliance wide retals first made an appearance in alliance (via MD), many alliances were against it, and fought to keep it away.

So the assumption that it is a necessary part of the alliance game is seriously flawed.

I feel like I am in that episode of futurama where the Professor tries to prove that evolution is real... "I don't want to live on this planet anymore..."

IX didn't join EC until later for the exact same reason LaF didn't join until later (we joined at the same time).

Because we refused to leave Gamerstown, and gamerstown was only supporting 1a (when they switched their support to EC, we moved to EC).

RD for sure, but who else?

Are you really so scared to run a techer?

hah

going to get raf and them back?

yes, because it sets lower standards and it creates a culture that we shouldn't want to achieve.

Or am I living in Atlas Shrugged all of a sudden?

There used to be categories for best NEW things, although I doubt such categories would be that relevent given the current state of things.

heh its not that we dont' see that side, we just completely disagree with it.

so instead of being ignorant to what we are saying you are ignorant to how we operate.

is everyone deaf?

COMMIES DON'T WORK, WE ALL AGREE WITH THIS.

You need techers.

you obviously dont know what you are talking about popcom.

I just gave a very direct explanation about what tags need to do to defend from grabs. You go on to post "what is a small alliance suppose to do?" Duh.. they could try taking my suggestion. All the evidence points to the fact that my suggestion works (look at the tags I've pointed to multiple times in this thread).

On the second point: A lot of alliances, including LaF are signing next to no pacts anymore. We are doing exactly what you just suggested.

I already responded to that whole line of attack by pointing out that ELy is set to neutral.

Pang hit the nail right on the head. It isn't my job to give you tag protection. Its your job to develop it within your tag. It is real easy to just say that it is LaF's fault you are getting grabbed. But really it is your fault for being too apathetic about the game to care to change it yourself. It isn't not our fault that you don't want to put the effort into your countries.

Alliances like EEVIL, SoF, SOL etc are avoiding getting hit by LaF by having 1 or 2 decent looking techers in there tag. Thats it, thats all.

When you look at LaF, there is really only 6 - 8 countries that grab established tags and try to outrun the retals. 6 - 8 people hitting your tag twice a day = 14 - 16 hits a day. Not too pleasant obviously, but if you had a couple techers that could retal then it wouldn't be happening.

Why wouldn't you get hit? Because hitting is infectious. People run similar startups so they hit growth phases at similar times. You get a techer looking at a tag like say.. Neo, and thinking "looking at their country NW's, land, and govs, I think I can outrun retals on these guys easy."

So he goes to kill team and he asks "hey can you guys upload spyops on these countries: a b c d ...", and the suspicions are confirmed. no countries with the military/income to retal.

Now the guy makes a few grabs, hits Neo a couple of times. Now there are 2 hits in the news from LaF on Neo. But there are still 4 - 6 other countries looking to grab today. The next techer logs in and see that his tech/D ally grew by a lot of acres today so he checks out the news and see the hits on Neo.

Now he thinks to himself "I have the same amount of D and income as him, if he can outrun the retals so can I". Now neo has 4 hits from LaF on them today.

On the other hand take someone like say... EEVIL. The first techer will skim over their tag and say "hmm, looks like there are a couple countries that could be a threat to break me, better get the ops". He goes to kill team for the ops. Sees that there are 2 techers with the techbase/income to easily buy enough jets to retal him within the first 24 hours.

He is not going to attack that alliance. The next techer is going to do a similar analysis in his head and make the same decision. And so on, and so on...

Is it really so hard to run 2 decent techers? Ideally you want 4 techers to make a full tech ring, but only 2 of them have to be decent in order to maintain retal capability in this day and age. Then have a commie or 2 as well for backup/early deterrance.

I don't understand why it is so hard to understand that not everyone in your alliance can play a lazy all explore cash or farmer and maintain retal capability in the early/midgame.
You can't do it as a 5 member tag, a 10 member tag, or a 25 member tag.

Oh PS: Just running a couple commies isn't enough. Commies act as early deterrence but techers outrun them around... well right around now. If you want to maintain retal ability/scare people away from hitting you, you need techers.... I'm sorry that they are more challenging to run than other strategies. But you need them.

So build them, and shut the hell up already.

haha, yes it is horrible this round. We had a member wide debate within LaF about a reset ago on whether to push a country:country retal policy, but it didn't recieve overwhelming enough support *shrug*

won't grab EEVIL because I know who their friends are?

Please... that is laughable.

I already stated that our rules are in regards to tags that are set on will retal status or higher. Ely currently is not on that status because they are yet to prove that they deserve it (and they are the only "established tag" that isn't on at least will retal).

Our members don't constantly abuse our rules, try again. Those that due are punished according to our rules. Not that our internal system is any of your business anyway.

we are unpacted to pretty much everyone. Do you see us farming SoF? EEVIL? SOL?

Why aren't we farming them? Its not cause we are afraid to... I wonder what it could be?

Maybe you guys should mull over that one for a while, it will go a real long way to putting you in the same position as them in the future.

and what makes you think such an attitude existed?

I can quote the convo almost 100% accurately right here:

me: "Hey, you interested in a pact for next reset?"

ZIP: "You guys using 48 hour retal windows?"

me: "Yep"

ZIP: "then I will have to say no to a pact, but thanks for offering..."


Yes... I was so mean to them.

If I was in your place I'd be arguing that they are illegitimate attack for RORs. But hey, we'll call them legit if you wish.

Regarding Ely:

Everyone over in that camp (aka Ely, PDM, Imag, Neo etc) seem to be forgetting that I offered them a uNAP for this reset. They rejected my offer.

It takes great odacity to outright reject my pact offer, and then complain when we find your countries to be appealing landgrabs.

I mean you had a choice to either accept the pact, or run countries that would scare our players away from grabbing you (for example, see EEVIL, SOF, Monsters, etc). You have done neither.

I have a lot more to say about this issue in general, but it is going to have to wait until I am not at work.

when you are competing for rank you aren't just competing with other alliances but with each other.

I don't understand, are we not suppose to try to grab land then, simply because nobody in your alliance ever took the time to learn a decent techer?

Maybe you should try to lobby the admins to take SS and PS out of the game all together then, I mean whats the point of having them there hmm?

PDM is doing most of the complaining on this thread, my comments have been directed at them.

Ely is the only "organized tag" that isn't at least on the "will retal" status I discussed above. The reason why should be obvious.

Ely is too small for this server, I'm sorry but thats how it is. They should have stayed merged in rage or merged wherever else and externally recuited for a couple resets and then come back when they were 15+

Don't say it can't be done because PDM just did it this round.

SS makes a lot of good points as well.

Those tags are not set on "will retal" otherwise they would be subject to the rule. They are on neutral. Guess why, because they don't retal effectively.

We don't farm countries either.

a person is only allowed to attack an tag 2 times a day, on separate countries. Since when was single tapping countries "farming" ? Is that what you classify as "farming" when you say you don't farm in express or tourney? So you believe we should just all explore then I guess.

you aren't changing your ways to reflect the times, you are changing them to reflect your circumstance.

But just as the strategies you chose in the past got you to where you are now, choose this road instead of another now will only set you back further.

PDM and Ely and everyone else played this exact same way back in the day.

The only saints around here are monsters, and they aren't complaining.

LaF hasn't always been on top.

I've been leading in laF for over a decade now, I've seen our highs and our lows. We've been in situations where alliances over twice our size hit us multiple times in a day and told us if we retaled they'd FS us.

We didn't come here to AT and cry about it though.

Just because you join a website and put a tag on your country doesn't give you the right to not get grabbed. Alliance is very similar to the other servers in that sense, only instead of each individual country requiring to protect itself, it is each tag.

Don't run a rep cash start in express and then piss and cry when the stronger countries grab you.

The same applies for the alliance server, except here you get even more leeway in that not every single country has to worry about its complete defense.

heh, its Purposeful1 and Imperial1 I thnk

I feel as though I probably argued against these when they were posted

exactly, and Kya speaks as someone who has had to deal with this first hand in the past.

But people aren't willing to try to internal solutions to their problems kya, its easy to come on AT and whine until you tag protection magically establishes itself all on its own.

LaF does not act as though we have the inalienable right to anything.

We dont' ask the community or other alliances to give us anything, we take what we want (and are capable of taking) and we lose what we aren't capable of keeping.

If anything LaF operates completely within the state of nature.

PDM is 26 countries, there is absolutely no reason why you should be having any problems maintaining retals.

In regards to Ely, well they aren't a upstart alliance, as such they have nobody to blame but themselves (and their past deicisions) for the position they are in. Plenty of alliances don't have a pact with LaF and are doing just fine, and not being grabbed by LaF.

Detmer: I don't see how that defeats what Requiem or I am saying.

DO you think the hits will become less or more given your retal success? If you continue to retal successfully, do you expect to see the hit rate stay as high?

Generally once people take a couple retals and lose a bunch of land, they realize that they can't hit that tag sucessfully.

You may be sure but I'm not.

I disagree that we drive all small clans away from the game. I like to think that we give them the incentive to play better.

Plenty of alliances have pulled their way out, Imag is a good example. I really think that Imag wouldn't be around anymore if LaF didn't grab them so agressively in the early - mid 2000's.

If you don't want to get grabbed, then retal. Running a bunch of all explore farmers and cashers is not a good way for any tag to maintain retal capabilities, especially a small tag such as yourself.

People these days try to act as though tag protection is a inalienable right. Well guess what it isn't. Your tag needs to maintain its protection via retal capabilities, otherwise someone else is going to see a gain in grabbing you.

This is a game, some of you may not play to win but some of us do. People who join LaF join because they want to win, or do as well as they can. The game is designed in such a way that country grow off of eachother, perhaps that is a bad thing perhaps it isn't. That is the game though...

yo Bishop

It was 2001,

and on further review, it was 2 resets prior to this that I won, so disregard my first post!

I won best rookie alliance leader the reset before this, but sure you had to post this one :P