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Xinhuan Game profile

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3728

Oct 26th 2013, 17:02:50

I wouldn't really care about the tech stealing, if there is a way to even deal with it, or mitigate it. Right now there isn't.

As I've said before, increasing your SPAL to any amount that actually matters against tech stealers, is just a lot worse than replenishing the lost tech daily. The amount of indies you have to build and set at 100% production to even get close to 100 SPAL just takes away from your income (as a farmer/casher or techer), not to mention the horrible spy upkeep.

Why isn't food or money stealing a problem? Because there are workarounds.

blid

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Oct 26th 2013, 17:07:52

Yeah, the game shouldn't *cater to* the top 1%, but things should work up top; the game should function properly for the top ten and it should function properly for the bottom 100. I know the bottom players and newbies have issues of their own they could ask for changes on, but that doesn't mean a bad issue at the top shouldn't be addressed.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

eManny Game profile

Member
332

Oct 26th 2013, 17:20:19

The thing is, tech stealing does nothing to improve chances of people outside the top 25 to win. Taking that away will not piss off people outside top 25, at least I doubt it.

I think what it will do however is prevent cheating/coordination/exploiting.

Because if I was to run a country and steal tech from everyone except a 'buddy' that's coordination, but will not get caught or deleted... or at least I have not yet heard of someone getting deleted for stealing tech. But it can certainly be exploited.

eManny Game profile

Member
332

Oct 26th 2013, 17:23:46

Oh and on an un-related note, given how the $70 food price is an indicator that everyone and their mom is stockin bushels, I predict a really hard crash when people start to buy-off Private market or public market and do their daily jumps.

I just don't see how low food prices all set can result in no crash especially when people start to dump food.

I am assuming that no one will wait until last day to jump off the public market as then prices might get to like $300/NW

crest23 Game profile

Member
4666

Oct 26th 2013, 17:37:02

Xin, at what amount of cash do you have on hand is it better to stock food and at what price of food? It probably is a moving average. I can understand it being better to eat corruption than stock over I think you had it at $40 once. But what if you have $10 billion of whatever and about to over run turns and boom bonuses. Same for having and growing instead of stocking.
The Nigerian Nightmare.

Xinhuan Game profile

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3728

Oct 26th 2013, 17:40:46

You can spreadsheet simulate this out, Crest.

One row per turn. Put in starting cash, corruption, cash per turn for each row and calculate next row.

Then do the same calculations as above (assuming rest of set is identical), but if you bought food instead, meaning little corruption, but the food value depreciates later.

blid

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Oct 26th 2013, 17:46:46

Originally posted by eManny:
Oh and on an un-related note, given how the $70 food price is an indicator that everyone and their mom is stockin bushels, I predict a really hard crash when people start to buy-off Private market or public market and do their daily jumps.

I just don't see how low food prices all set can result in no crash especially when people start to dump food.

I am assuming that no one will wait until last day to jump off the public market as then prices might get to like $300/NW
I don't think the food is this expensive because of people stocking on account of nobody would stock food at these prices. I think the main techers have already dumped their food as well. Someone bought 200m bushels for $48 - seems more like a Dem trying to buy out the market, perhaps, than it seems like stocking, but that'd be a pretty risky move.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

oldman Game profile

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877

Oct 26th 2013, 17:52:03

food's at $70, whoever bought that $48 food must be glad.

Serpentor Game profile

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2800

Oct 26th 2013, 17:56:23

If a few people coordinated a buyout together..... Would a game mod be able to detect it?

Is there a huge spike in the purchased food over the last 12 hrs or something?

If it all started at once and 2 or 3 countries started mass buying out together, that's pretty obvious.

Edited By: Serpentor on Oct 26th 2013, 18:00:02
See Original Post
The EEVIL Empire

eManny Game profile

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332

Oct 26th 2013, 17:59:32

Even so, there are so many more bushels in stock then needed to play turns and at some point all those bushels will find themselves on the public market because people will want to convert it into $$

So they will undermine eachother, lol.

I just don't see how prices wont crash...

Serpentor Game profile

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Oct 26th 2013, 18:00:58

They will after a few days of making profit on those who have to run turns.
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eManny Game profile

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332

Oct 26th 2013, 18:36:41

Considering there is only like 7 days left in the set...

crest23 Game profile

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4666

Oct 26th 2013, 20:28:07

You assume there's a lot of stock left. The main techers seem to have dumped. I see high food to the end.
The Nigerian Nightmare.

Xinhuan Game profile

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Oct 26th 2013, 20:55:22

I wish I bought that $48 food.

blid

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Oct 26th 2013, 20:55:55

Originally posted by crest23:
You assume there's a lot of stock left. The main techers seem to have dumped. I see high food to the end.

Except for this:
Originally posted by LATC:
Holy cow.. someone has a starving country..

Oct 25, 22:00 Oct 25, 23:00 $46 $50 $48.40 196,617,042

200,000,000 bushels sold in a one-hour span. That's $10b someone(s) plowed into food. So there's stock out there.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

eManny Game profile

Member
332

Oct 26th 2013, 23:41:19

how can there possibly be no stock? people stock food to destock.

Or are you saying people will hold on to bushels until last day then sell it for $34 on private?

There cannot not be a stock lol. It aint possible

The only way the server will run out of food is if the guys stocking the food make it disapear on the private market.

blid

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Oct 27th 2013, 0:09:03

$35 is the price on private if you have sufficiently good military tech.

The reason there would be no stock would be
a) techers already dumped their food and
b) non-techers have not yet begun stocking because food is too expensive

So it's very possible, but I'm sure there's still stock out there. Like whoever bought out the $48 food has some stock.

Edited By: blid on Oct 27th 2013, 1:04:02
See Original Post
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

crest23 Game profile

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Oct 27th 2013, 0:21:07

The server probably eats that in a day.
The Nigerian Nightmare.

Serpentor Game profile

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Oct 27th 2013, 0:33:43

Someone bought their buddy's full $50 stockpile..?
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blid

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Oct 27th 2013, 1:05:00

Originally posted by crest23:
The server probably eats that in a day.
Server eats half that in a day, and why did it all sell in one hour? Someone is stocking, but why stock at $48? Seems like someone playing market games, but that person needs to sell that food back off. Maybe they already have been, slowly, or maybe they'll dump it all in an hour. Hard to say.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

eManny Game profile

Member
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Oct 27th 2013, 2:42:13

I don't get the whole techer dumped their stock. Dumped it where? If they put it on the public market then someone else bought it and those bushels are STILL in circulation.

If food was never an issue during the entire set I just don't see how it would be an issue now ...

Just have to wait for all those who stocked to start destocking I guess. Doesn't that usually happen 5-6 days before end of set?

I haven't played too many sets so I guess I can be totally off lol.

Edit: I looked at the market history a while back and there were big spikes. Also there are 3-4 rep cashers that stopped grabbing like 5-10 days ago which means they were probably stocking bushels hard. Those guys do have to destock at some point...

oldman Game profile

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877

Oct 27th 2013, 2:49:35

the top techer obviously dumped his stock. There are a couple other techers who haven't. Countries consume food to run their turns, so part of those food that was dumped would be consumed.

The spike is due to someone buying up 200M bushels at one shot. Resulting in supply being less than demand, hence the price went up.

Also, the reps aren't stocking bushels at this moment (if they knew what they are doing). Most are just holding turns or just cashing with corruption cost. There will be a point where corruption cost becomes larger than the potential loss in value if they stocked food and they will switch to stocking food then.

oldman Game profile

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877

Oct 27th 2013, 2:52:46

Also, in case no one has noticed. 11.5M barrels of oil was sold for an average of $250 about 10 hrs ago. I saw it disappeared.

There're only 2 reasons I can think of for someone to do that.
a) an attempt at reselling, which I believe will just back fire real bad.
b) an attempt at market aiding someone (I've no proof whatsoever).

eManny Game profile

Member
332

Oct 27th 2013, 4:32:32

There was more than 1 spike.

Also, If I stopped grabbing 10 days ago I'd have over 10Bil in hand so I'd buy bushels (I am referring to my post here). At 10Bil you're losing 8Mil per turn which is like > 25% of cashing.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of the > 40K acre cashers stocked bushels before they went over $50.

Serpentor Game profile

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2800

Oct 27th 2013, 4:44:17

Anyone crazy enough to buy the $70 food?
The EEVIL Empire

eManny Game profile

Member
332

Oct 27th 2013, 4:46:36

It's funny because if indeed the entire market is short of food, buying then selling at any price you can hold the entire server hostage... because anything is better than food at $300 on private...

eManny Game profile

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Oct 27th 2013, 4:49:43

But then again given that farmers were able to outproduce demand for the entire set I doubt that's the case

blid

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Oct 27th 2013, 4:54:47

Originally posted by oldman:
Also, in case no one has noticed. 11.5M barrels of oil was sold for an average of $250 about 10 hrs ago. I saw it disappeared.

There're only 2 reasons I can think of for someone to do that.
a) an attempt at reselling, which I believe will just back fire real bad.
b) an attempt at market aiding someone (I've no proof whatsoever).

I'm sure it's b.

Lots of bs going on this reset. If anyone thinks anything h2o's done this reset is legit they need to have their ass kicked.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

blid

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Oct 27th 2013, 4:56:56

One odd thing this reset, there's way fewer big cashers.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

oldman Game profile

Member
877

Oct 27th 2013, 5:17:54

I don't think anything's odd about the fewer bigger cashers.

1. tech prices are high >$2000 for the whole darn set
2. military prices haven't been kind until recently
3. the increased military losses while bottomfeeding hurts everyone (this means everyone is smaller/takes longer to get to the same acreage as past sets)
4. just less good players playing it this set

blid - the winner will surprise us. I doubt it will be an indy.

st0ny Game profile

Member
611

Oct 27th 2013, 5:38:27

Originally posted by ingle:
Originally posted by st0ny:
while you mods are checking, could you check on #132 as well please. maybe he's coordinating with #269?

if he is... could i request that you guys just state it here and not delete him pls? thanks. :D


St0ny - Go ahead and report me all you want (you already did before and I already chatted with Galleri) - I have no idea who runs #269 nor do I care because he stole tech from me too (the irony that a techer stealer was also getting tech stolen). Stop being so upset that I "broke your legs in this marathon" because you decided to give up your own country and ruin your own reset. :) I already explained to you my reasoning behind my actions. I was stealing tech from any player with a crappy SPAL. Why explore for 7 acres when I can steal 7k tech per turn. From an economic stand point, 7k tech > 7 acres, and stealing tech is the same as attacking someone for land. Spy ops are a part of the game mechanics until qz changes it - especially when I'm not overly concerned about going to war. Also, if I'm going to keep 2.5 million spies employed, I may as well put them to good use!

You can try to play the innocent card after announcing to many other players your intentions of "going to farm me" or "going to AB me". If you want to talk further about "cheating", perhaps you shouldn't be trying to get tech leeches or give offensive leeches to other people. Also, using offensive allies isn't the cleanest method of playing either but do as you wish.

Blid - last set, you accused me of trying to help other LaFers win by only stealing tech from you and other non-laf players. I'm doing the same thing this set, we (st0ny and I) both play in LaF in alliance, and as you can see, we are warring. So you can stop insinuating that I help "cheat" in primary by not targeting other laf members. I took alliance out of the equation. Being in the same alliance does not automatically preclude anyone from me stealing tech. You can even ask Xin and Palemoon how much tech I stole from them this set - I still <3 them. I only stopped after having chats with those countries in game. Primary is a SOLO server, so st0ny, stop whining that I'm warring a fellow LaF member.

If anyone runs any strat with low spies, you will most likely get your tech stolen until you learned to get a decent SPAL. Here's another quote for you:
Originally posted by LATC:
haha how's this: "Don't complain. Assess & adjust."


I'm just trolling around on Primary - and there are no rules against large trolls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaqC5FnvAEc


i explained most of what you said here to you in irc when you msged and and left it at,'we will never see eye to eye on this because of our different way of thinking'.

to take what i said in irc privately to quote here only shows that you're the type that will stoop down between somebody's legs to get something.

and the 'marathon'. lemme say it again. dont go out breaking ppl's legs just because you dont care about the marathon.










Originally posted by LATC:
"Don't complain. Assess & adjust."


LATC Game profile

Member
1210

Oct 27th 2013, 5:46:15

Originally posted by oldman:
Also, in case no one has noticed. 11.5M barrels of oil was sold for an average of $250 about 10 hrs ago. I saw it disappeared.

There're only 2 reasons I can think of for someone to do that.
a) an attempt at reselling, which I believe will just back fire real bad.
b) an attempt at market aiding someone (I've no proof whatsoever).



It's weird, this has happened a few times this set, when oil price gets under $200 and then someone buys a crap ton. I noticed it happening a few times last set too, that's why I decided to go partial oiler this set. Last set I also noticed a block of food always being sold overnight in the low $30's while food price on market was in the $40's and $50's. Definitely lots of shady things going on.
Originally posted by Xinhuan:
Are you guys stupid or what?

ingle Game profile

Member
603

Oct 27th 2013, 5:57:00

Originally posted by st0ny:
Originally posted by ingle:
Originally posted by st0ny:
while you mods are checking, could you check on #132 as well please. maybe he's coordinating with #269?

if he is... could i request that you guys just state it here and not delete him pls? thanks. :D


St0ny - Go ahead and report me all you want (you already did before and I already chatted with Galleri) - I have no idea who runs #269 nor do I care because he stole tech from me too (the irony that a techer stealer was also getting tech stolen). Stop being so upset that I "broke your legs in this marathon" because you decided to give up your own country and ruin your own reset. :) I already explained to you my reasoning behind my actions. I was stealing tech from any player with a crappy SPAL. Why explore for 7 acres when I can steal 7k tech per turn. From an economic stand point, 7k tech > 7 acres, and stealing tech is the same as attacking someone for land. Spy ops are a part of the game mechanics until qz changes it - especially when I'm not overly concerned about going to war. Also, if I'm going to keep 2.5 million spies employed, I may as well put them to good use!

You can try to play the innocent card after announcing to many other players your intentions of "going to farm me" or "going to AB me". If you want to talk further about "cheating", perhaps you shouldn't be trying to get tech leeches or give offensive leeches to other people. Also, using offensive allies isn't the cleanest method of playing either but do as you wish.

Blid - last set, you accused me of trying to help other LaFers win by only stealing tech from you and other non-laf players. I'm doing the same thing this set, we (st0ny and I) both play in LaF in alliance, and as you can see, we are warring. So you can stop insinuating that I help "cheat" in primary by not targeting other laf members. I took alliance out of the equation. Being in the same alliance does not automatically preclude anyone from me stealing tech. You can even ask Xin and Palemoon how much tech I stole from them this set - I still <3 them. I only stopped after having chats with those countries in game. Primary is a SOLO server, so st0ny, stop whining that I'm warring a fellow LaF member.

If anyone runs any strat with low spies, you will most likely get your tech stolen until you learned to get a decent SPAL. Here's another quote for you:
Originally posted by LATC:
haha how's this: "Don't complain. Assess & adjust."


I'm just trolling around on Primary - and there are no rules against large trolls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaqC5FnvAEc


i explained most of what you said here to you in irc when you msged and and left it at,'we will never see eye to eye on this because of our different way of thinking'.

to take what i said in irc privately to quote here only shows that you're the type that will stoop down between somebody's legs to get something.

and the 'marathon'. lemme say it again. dont go out breaking ppl's legs just because you dont care about the marathon.


If that's the case st0ny, why would you instigate a new topic here about trying to report me for "cheating"? Especially when you've already reported me before.

As per don't go out breaking ppl's legs (aka. tech stealing), even LATC agrees with me on the tech stealing - he just does it to weaker people.

LATC Game profile

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1210

Oct 27th 2013, 6:01:40

Originally posted by ingle:
As per don't go out breaking ppl's legs (aka. tech stealing), even LATC agrees with me on the tech stealing - he just does it to weaker people.


HEY! I resent that! I also steal money, food, and oil if there is a lot at home!
Originally posted by Xinhuan:
Are you guys stupid or what?

Xinhuan Game profile

Member
3728

Oct 27th 2013, 6:18:54

Originally posted by blid:
One odd thing this reset, there's way fewer big cashers.


There is fewer big ANYTHING.

1) High tech prices causes all countries to have lower production, leading to overall slower country growths across the server. The largest techer this set is Gogy.

2) Increased losses to military when bottomfeeding (double the losses from 8% to 16% at 1/4 humanitarians range) means it costs more to grow. This is a much higher cost than the reduction in building costs, leading to slower growth.

Because it is now much harder to grow out of range of countries you hit today into the 1/4 range of the next countries you hit, you have to spend turns to just tech up and buy defenses instead.

This leads to high indy prices.

3) High indy prices and high tech prices actually counteract each other for indies and techers. Cashers are hardest hit, but cashers are a very strong strat to begin with, winning most of the last 2 years, they shine at late set and require less tech per acre than other strats. This is somewhat offset by the fact that cashers are the most stolen-from countries for tech stealing.

Xinhuan Game profile

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Oct 27th 2013, 6:22:20

Originally posted by eManny:
But then again given that farmers were able to outproduce demand for the entire set I doubt that's the case


This is because nobody but techers start stocking early. Non-techers generally only start stocking 12 days from end of set onwards. There is VERY few techers this set (tech prices are high all set), and thus very low demand for food up until 12 days from end of set. The non-techers might stop grabbing 14 days from end of set, but they need 2 days to tech up to the tech levels they want to achieve - which is when tech prices usually spike - good techers dump tech at this point, and then dump food shortly maybe 5 days later - when food is high, and when pub military is at its lowest.

You won't see food crash until 3-4 days from end of set, and most non-Demos sell to private market anyway, unless public is above $37 then. On other solo servers, food almost always runs out on the last day (yes that means you can't run turns and it usually isn't worth buying food from PM to do so), on Primary, this rarely happens but this might be the set for it.

st0ny Game profile

Member
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Oct 27th 2013, 6:32:35

i asked the mods to dbl confirm if you're coordinating with #269... i doubt theres anything wrong with that.

why bring others into our disagreement? but just like how i ended our conversation in irc, everyone has they're point of view.

so be defensive and justify all you want. its your choice. just like its mine to disagree with what you did and asking the mods to re confirm if you're coordinating the ops with #269.



Originally posted by LATC:
"Don't complain. Assess & adjust."


crest23 Game profile

Member
4666

Oct 27th 2013, 9:46:56

Xin, A dictator is actually the biggest techer now. And cashers require the least tech per acre? I didn't think so. CIs.

Edited By: crest23 on Oct 27th 2013, 16:36:09. Reason: Swype sometimes such
See Original Post
The Nigerian Nightmare.

Xinhuan Game profile

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Oct 27th 2013, 10:56:10

Oh is it? I didn't really look very hard.

mr ed Game profile

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Oct 27th 2013, 12:14:33

.

blid

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Oct 27th 2013, 13:11:32

Originally posted by st0ny:
and the 'marathon'. lemme say it again. dont go out breaking ppl's legs just because you dont care about the marathon.
Yeah that's right
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

eManny Game profile

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332

Oct 27th 2013, 14:25:01

I had decent hopes for a high NW finish but now I basically have to cross my fingers for a big bushel dump lulz

crest23 Game profile

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Oct 27th 2013, 17:59:19

Looks like reps might be in trouble this set.
The Nigerian Nightmare.

Xinhuan Game profile

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Oct 27th 2013, 20:10:46

I thought it was obvious this wasn't a casher set from like 6 weeks ago. Why the surprise?

blid

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Oct 27th 2013, 20:28:50

Because even if it's a bad casher set you'd still usually see a lot more cashers rise to the top, usually there's a lot more good players running cashers. Also, food's only really gone through the roof lately.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

Xinhuan Game profile

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Oct 27th 2013, 20:40:25

Nope, this was very obvious to me. There were barely any large techers this set, tech prices were high, and even fewer techers were stocking food as witnessed by the extremely late food price rise (that is it stayed below $40 all the way past Week 6), which means next to no food dump, and no food crash since there was almost no food stocked by techers.

blid

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Oct 27th 2013, 20:50:35

You're being silly - maybe it was obvious to you all along that these weren't good conditions for cashers, sure, that wasn't a secret to anybody. But unless you took a census of who was cashing or foresaw this weird food bump a week or two ago then those things weren't obvious. See what I'm saying? I'm not saying, "Wow, I'm surprised this is a bad reset for cashers!" I am saying, "Didn't see this late food spike coming. And I'm surprised more good players didn't go casher."

Edited By: blid on Oct 27th 2013, 20:53:59
See Original Post
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

eManny Game profile

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332

Oct 27th 2013, 23:18:46

Well, what's the estimate finish for the 10th spot this set? 90-95 M?

Serpentor Game profile

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Oct 28th 2013, 1:06:37

Probably usually around 95-100 for the 10th spot.
The EEVIL Empire

blid

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Oct 28th 2013, 1:26:49

Was only 81m last round, you think we bounce back this set? Not sure about that...
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.