Good point, Dee, punishing hard work is not good.

enshula my example is down 50% not 16%.

5k -> 2.5k

2500 / 150 ~ 16 attacks

16 * 4 = 64 attacks.

Granted you're not going to get 150 buildings in returns, but 64 attacks is not max turns either for a Tyranny.

FFA should stay at 10% fa while alliance should go to 20%

FFA doesn't need a boost, you have plenty of countries to aid your restarts back in the fight

Yeah and all the nw records would get crushed with 15 aiding 20% to one.

But seriously. Why would you penalize someone for activity walling? I dont necessarily see why rewarding them is necessary but why penalize them on their restart? I thought wallers got a bonus because you blow thru stock walling. A slight bonus means you basically get back what you'd have if you didnt wall, but you burn more stock of the enemy.

Why do people want to take walling out of the game here and make not walling better? That seems extremely counterintuitive. Walling = activity. Time spent playing should be rewarded not penalized.

Like if a changeset was invented for netters where when you guys spent 30 mins in the game, you were penalized for it, would you not quit playing for that 30 mins?

I dont think it needed to be as dramatic as it was, but players who spend time on this game should have positive not negative results in their country. The idea of penalizing people for activity is absurd.

How about if you wall and live you don't lose everything like you do if you die? I don't understand the issue with no restart bonus, it curbs suiciders and rewards those who do wall.

No 1 suicider is going to kill anyone, but an alliance of 5 now has bargaining chips for big alliances to back the fluff up.

DerrickICN +1

Come play ffa where that one suicider has 16 countries that can cause ruin. At least with a restart bonus you really aren't out.

Oh I've been there...

https://m.earthempires.com/ffa/32/ranks/794

If I had any SDI or spies or decent defense against suiciders I would have been fine. This is even easier to accomplish now that there are bots.

People can say that everyone will quit if that happens to them. Apparently they forget that this game had WAY more players before any restart bonuses were applied.

The difference with not having a restart bonus is that the suicider dies, and stays dead because he has nothing. The player that got screwed can get FA. Also half the suiciders have reasons to ruin someone's set, if there was anyway the little guy could be seen as any type of threat half of those reasons wouldn't be a thing.

I can guarantee beyond any doubt that any person that plays this game still has been suicider upon, and a majority have been suiciders.

There has to be a middle ground where you don't punish activity on a restart bonus but at the same time you don't make it so strong that a suicider or more can ruin several people's countries with hundreds of hours of work in them.

+2 for derrick

Well every turn/$ used walling kills way more units, oil and turns on the enemy than it kills of your restart usually by a factor 10 or so. Whatever stock or turns you use there is the best investment you will ever make in a war even if enshula's restart bonus suggestion was used.

I dont particularily enjoy enshulas suggestion as I believe it is the wrong way to nerf walling, which is certain AF strong and has been for years. But his take is that blindsides are too strong and the old restart mechanic punished the side that was blindsided as they would die to 70-defend CM rushes and have no highlights on the FS.

Currently a computer user cant die in most standard scenarios in war, unless he runs out of liquid assets or is slow to his computer or for some reason ran down too many of his turns. Thats a little strong and I would have Mobile users and non-wallers become at least relevant against computer wallers. But I would do it in other ways as I have described above, the problem is not what you get when you die but the fact that your enemy's only counterplay to walling is speed or throwing more turns/stock on you. I'd like it to be more complex than that.

it doesnt do anything if you go down to 50% though

your initial point is that the first mover gains an advantage because the second mover does less damage in return

but for the second person to do less damage they have to be knocked down "enough" which is to 16% of the first persons buildings

or about 27% under the absolute most favourable conditions so somewhere between 27% and 16% it begins to kick in

(you actually have to go much further before it has a big effect because otherwise you hit max damage in a few hits anyway)

at 50% it does nothing new

edit:
also you dont kill 150 each hit, youd be killing 79 on the first hit mono 0 tech or 133 tyranny max tech, and it drops each subsequent hit

so at max in 16 hits you kill 1750, thats no where close to the 3650 you need to kill to start having an effect if they are tyranny max mil strat, i dont know why i said 25 hits up above but its actually 50 before you get them under 1330 which is how low they need to be before they start being crippled

sure a tyranny can do 50 ab's but that seems like a reasonable investment to actually start getting a returns

it takes an extra 25 hits to reduce initial retaliation by half when they are at 665 buildings left
so then the equal country comes along and does 75 ab's back for the first 50 hits it does only 66 damage, but after 75 abs the total buildings left is 960, vs 665, and thats assuming you never rebuild at all

worst case it would take you 23 extra hits to knock them down as far as you

nevermind the 4 on 1 scenario your using would be 200+ hits so express only

Yeah, getting someone from equal buildings of your own to 16% of those buildings with ABs even as a tyranny is an impossible task in all servers but express, unless you have stocked missiles all set. So the first mover advantage has not been increased by this change.

Walling uses up more resources of the other side. A lot of the "good wallers" i see i consider selfish players not helping their side as much as they could. The ones that dont break countries.

So instead of 35/65 for a normal kill or 26/56 for a chem rush wallers come back with more like 50/80 or higher.

So the chem rushed person who dies in 10 seconds at the FS, possibly without even knowing they are at war comes back with the least help. And way less buildings and csites.

Then the waller gets so much back that they sometimes dont even bother buying up, just keeping it on the market instead because if they die they lose an insignificant amount of it.

When restart bonus came in people were complaining about losing all their effort in a short time. And blindsides. A waller by definition is not blindsided. And if it chooses not to use its resources why should it be rewarded for doing so?

Also restart bonus originally was only based on turns run, and i think only in the previous country not for the whole reset.

The only possible way for "not walling" to be better than walling is if you are trying to rebuild breaking power. Where you have small stocking countries that keep all goods on market to buy up at some future date and break a country. Trying to hide and not look like good kills. But even those countries want more defends currently. So yes once a war is over if restart bonuses were reversed maybe i can see someone who stocks up 1b rather dying in few hits and getting 500m back rather than dying in more hits and getting 300m back.

But even then those countries are being selfish, because they are more concerned about their own personal stuff than trusting someone else to grow and hopefully taking a couple of hundred hits that would save someone else from dying.

somewhat amusingly the break even point of readiness spent to start having an effect is 117 turns worth

thats really close to how many you can spend anywhere except express, although tyranny can frontload 25 extra attacks of course, but even that has minimal effects

best case your doing 75 hits to make them equal back at 98 hits back, assuming they are bad

That assumes matching NWs on all attacks, no? That is a ludicrous assumption.

yes, its higher in turns and attacks when networths dont match and both sides arnt 140% mil strat tyrannies

If a tyranny at max MStrat unleashes 117 turns on you, all at perfectly matched NW, hasn't it always been impactful? Shouldn't it be so?

What I worry about more is that the flat 10% limit strikes harder against the efficacy of ABs than BRs, and more against tyrannies with high MStrat than non-tyrs with low MStrat. The purpose of the limit is not to nerf MStrat, tyr or certain attack types, but to change the assymetrical warfare advantage that has always been given to small countries and suiciders through NW modifiers and other means.

The complaint of warrers that wars dont end in resounding victory/defeat has been blamed erroneously, imo, only on the restart bonus but the greater returns of small countries vs big than vice versa is a greater reason for that as well as what has been making suiciders overpowered for years.

This would solve both these problems, without removing the restart bonus:

Min(Attacker_Resource*Constant,Defender_Resource)*Base_attack_effect*Modifiers

It is also a more elegant solution.

well you used to get max returns hitting at 140% of your nw in both grabbing and killing for most of the games run

which made the losing side kill about 3x quicker than the winning side, so people used to consider winning when the smaller side stabilised around 1/3 the ANW of the winners

but these days even at 1/3 ANW you can attack instantly pretty much with restart bonuses so people dont consider it as much of a loss

right now you kill more up, than down, but not by as huge an amount as it was historically

but yeah if you want to make milstrat/tyranny always a bonus, and never a waste of investment there is an argument for it

i like it this way because of the implication on grabbing though, so if it was changed id prefer it only on specials

and with restart bonuses coming back it does increase the rate at which second and third wave suiciders can do max damage if they only required 16% land to ab at current 26.5% effectiveness thats a pretty big buff to suiciders

Got busy with work/personal stuff, will put this in hopefully tonight or maybe tomorrow and deploy it to servers already in progress!

I've had to spend more time on non-EE things than i expected, so I am going to go with the following for the upcoming rounds:

- Building returns from all SPECIAL attacks (BR + AB) are based on 10% of attacker's total built acres, not 10% of each  specific building. This should mean that any country that has built the majority of its land will get regular returns for buildings.
- Restart bonus is re-enabled with the following changes:
  - Number of defends before dying no longer has any impact on the restart aid calculation
  - All restarts will receive 25% of their original country's resources at the time of death as the base calculation for resources to restore on the restart, rather than up to 95%
  - All restart will receive 50% of their original country's resources on the market at the time of death, rather than up to 95%
  - Turns, bonus points, etc will be counted the same way as before
- When looking up a restart country in-game through the country search, the original country # will be available on the search results page

We'll see if we need to adjust the % for restart aid depending on how these changes end up working.

Is this across all servers equally? I think FFA base restart bonus stayed at 40% when every other servers were reduced to 20% (changeset 16 in 2014). So excluding the last round of FFA where the restart bonus wasn't nixed due to implementation timing, FFA got a 15% base decrease and other servers get the old base rate back plus 5% with new restart bonus rates being final instead of "base".

Not complaining, just clarifying... Unless I missed another changeset somewhere that adjusted things somewhere. I'm thinking the end-result decrease is a good start on this.

Everything works just like I posted above. No server-specific one-offs

You already won the most important resource, turns spent by the enemy. If you wall 600 attacks you have saved a potential kill on your teammate.

Where does it say you get less if you defend?

- Restart bonus is re-enabled with the following changes:
***
- ***All restarts*** will receive 25% of their original country's resources at the time of death as the base calculation for resources to restore on the restart, rather than up to 95%
- ***All restart*** will receive 50% of their original country's resources on the market at the time of death, rather than up to 95%


Am i missing something?

Everyone got all flustered because enshula suggested what he has been suggesting for years on end. :)