Originally
posted by
crest23:
The bible teaches a lot of great lessons. IMO, having the teachings in the bible is infinitely better than never having the bible. I learned a lot of things from reading the bible, things that I find solace in till this very day. Just the way I was even taught to read/study the bible alone, helped me understand how to study and take notes in school for example. A lot of people posting here have never read the bible. Just because you can quote a verse here and a verse there means nothing.
Infinitely better? Really? I am glad you prefaced that with an "IMO".
I had a really cool mom. She taught me to read when I was very young. Before I started school I was reading the Tarzan series of novels by Edgar Rice Burroughs and writing and drawing my own 5 year old's version of Tarzan fables. I learned a lot of things because of my early discovery of books, both fiction and non. It was, I believe, my mother's superior parenting skills that gave me a thirst for knowledge that continues to this day.
And your insinuation that I have not read the bible is unfounded and means nothing.
Make you a deal. You don't assume I haven't read the bible, and I won't assume you haven't read Immanuel Kant.
Originally
posted by
crest23:
A lot of people have access to the bible, have heard about the bible, have read the bible. A lot of people do not know who Confucius is and saying that people should wait to hear that great message through a "never heard of" Confucius is dumb.
Perhaps in your neighborhood, a lot of people do not know who Confucius is. Your town, city, state, country is not the center of all civilization on earth. Here's an idea. Go to China and survey it's 1.4b people, see if anyone there has heard of Confucius.
And who said people should wait to hear the great message through a 'never heard of' Confucius?
That statement is dumb.
My point was, that the basic message of what we know as The Golden Rule has resounded in human cultures throughout history. The bible does not own it any more than it owns the ideas that theft, adultery, lying and killing is bad. Morality did not originate in the bible, though that's what its most fervent followers would have you believe.
In fact it seems that a form of the golden rule seems to be a common 'morality' even in the higher primates.
It is not unusual that the concept would evolve in cooperative social species capable of even very limited forms of abstract thought. It's a great code of conduct and makes for a fantastic learning tool for young minds, but it's not rocket science. Nor does it exist solely and exclusively within the realm of religious faith.
Originally
posted by
crest23:
Most people when they hear a snippet of Lionel Richie's hit single 'Hello' know the song. It's a great song, nice tune, nice rhythm, and the guitar solo is very popular. 'Everyone' knows this song. What many people do not know is that he was sued by a woman, Marjorie Hoffman White, who accused Richie of plagiarizing her composition "I'm Not Ready to Go". Have you ever hear of Ms. White? Or of her song? I dare so you haven't. Did the song Hello change everyones life? No, but of the millions that have heard that song I bet a few people will swear to you that having that song at some point in there lives was absolutely worth it.
Well this is an odd analogy to the subject at hand but ok i'll go with it.
I'm not a fan. My life is now neither enriched by any Lionel Richie songs nor diminished by their absence. It's fine with me that you really really like that song but you shouldn't expect me to.
I know the joy of music and I am glad that you do too. I am also glad that your appreciation of that song stands on its own merit and is not tarnished by the lawsuits against Richie, or by his new plagiarism lawsuit against Adele for her song of the same name, or by Richie being discovered by his first wife in a hotel room with a woman that he later married and divorced. You appreciate that song - apparently a LOT - for what it is and that's fine.
I do remember when that song was played on the radio for what seemed like 144 times a day. A coworker played a pop station on a radio at her desk just loud enough for me to hear. It was so overplayed that I hated that song then. I thought it was one of the sappiest dullest pieces of music of its day. I couldn't wait to go home and wash my brain out with some Stevie Ray, or ZZ Top, or some old Led Zep.
When i look at the context of when that song was written, along with the new information I have about Richie's marital infidelity just a couple years later, followed by a divorce, a marriage, and another divorce, I can't help but LOL a little bit, thinking that the creator of that song was really kind of a hypocrite when expressing views of love in that (imo still sappy) song. Damn you for making me listen to it as part of my Lionel Richie research. ;-)
Now, do you think less of me because I d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶f̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶i̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶ ̶i̶n̶f̶a̶l̶l̶i̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶s̶o̶u̶r̶c̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶m̶o̶r̶a̶l̶ ̶p̶r̶i̶n̶c̶i̶p̶l̶e̶s̶ ̶ don't find much of substance in that Lionel Richie song?
If you do, that's your deficiency, not mine.
Originally
posted by
crest23:
Also, why do we teach our children anything? Why do we bother studying and learning and growing? We should just let them "figure this fluff out for themselves w/out wading through all the BS written by ancient, relatively ignorant peoples."
Every segment of your gish gallop gets sillier.
I consider myself fortunate that I was not indoctrinated into a religious belief by my parents. I don't know what may have happened to me had I been taught at a very early age that I was a sinner from the moment of my birth, and that there is only one way to avoid 'infinite' punishment by some invisible entity with 'infinite' knowledge that loves me so much (infinitely?) that he would torture me forever and ever (again, infinitely) for something a couple of my supposed ancestors did countless generations before my birth.
I'm very appreciative that I don't hold the belief that no matter how badly I treat others in this life, I can p̶l̶a̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶g̶e̶t̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶j̶a̶i̶l̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶d̶ confess my sins while on my deathbed to a guy wearing funny clothes, accept some zombie myth dude as my savior, and exist happily ever after, infinitely praising the very entity that made us all imperfect in the first place.
If I suddenly find myself in heaven, and learn that my dear mother had done (or not done) something in her life to earn her entrance into heaven, how could I ever be at peace knowing she is being tortured in hell for eternity? Would I have some kind of transformation in heaven that allows me to feel love and obedience toward the supernatural entity that not only created my imperfect mother, branded her a sinner at birth, then banished her to an eternity of suffering? Would I feel glee knowing that all the billions of dirty sinners (including my dear mother) are tortured forever and ever by the very being i'm expected to worship?
nah, no thanks. I'm just not into snuff flicks.
All that mess is still presumed by many to be the ultimate truth and that's precisely what I want my children to be shielded from until they are able to examine the evidence with a maturing mind. Very young minds are extremely open to the opinions of important adults in their lives. They trust. They have no reason to suspect what they are being told by caring smiling loving adults may not be true. It's accepted as - get ready for it - the 'gospel truth'.
Now don't get me wrong. There's a lot of treasured literature from history that have good ideas within but also contain passages I would not want my children to read until they are emotionally and psychologically mature enough to process the 'big picture' and yes, wade through the BS.
But very few of them claim to be the unerring word of the creator of the universe and threaten infinite torture to any reader that does not embrace its precepts. That claim sets a very high standard, and IMO it is a standard that the bible 'infinitely' fails to meet.
When you believe that the heaven waiting for you after death is 'infinite', our existence in this lifetime (the ONLY lifetime we have proof exists) is diminished. We're told there's a better, more important existence waiting for us when this lifetime ends. So you had better play by our rules. Or else.
Well hell yeah that sounds like a tale told by ancient relatively ignorant peoples.
You better not shout. You better not cry. You better not pout, I'm telling you why. Santa Claus is coming to town. He sees you ALL THE TIME so don't try to pull a fast one. Santa will throw you into the chimney and stoke the fire.
Originally
posted by
crest23:
You sound very ignorant my friend.
Wrong. On both counts.