CD a bit overpowered - Earth Empires Forum

BlueCow

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May 8th 2015, 19:24:41

have a high spal? I mean i know they can drop land and all to increase their spal, but ya.

Slagpit
Mar 31st 2024, 15:13:02

If you sincerely believe that the game admins are lying to you then you should obviously quit the game.

Celphi

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May 8th 2015, 20:36:47

It's why I say, SPAL is king in war. I preached about this on Boxcar, and some senior players were trying to convince 25+ SPAL was good enough and that my 120+ SPAL wasn't worth much.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

i have a high spal but i'm just saying more than 5% of troops killed per CD seems excessive. CD someone with 10m troops only 10 times and kill 5m troops? that's overpowered and a lot of players have been feeling the same way out spal for a few sets. i'm not complaining, but it definitely seems really powerful when getting a high spal isn't hard and shouldn't be rewarded that much. 1-2% troops killed per cd sounds much more reasonable

Celphi

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May 8th 2015, 20:46:07

If you're losing 5m troops every 24 hrs (apx, 650 mil cash), then it's probably better to go higher with your SPAL. It's better to pay the upkeep cost.
I believe there's around 72 turns per 24hrs.
That's about 9mil a turn on replacing those 5m troops.

If they're landing 10 CD per 40/50,. then either their luck factor is really high or your SPAL still isn't high enough.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Vic

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May 8th 2015, 20:50:13

i am well aware how costly it is heh. i have one of the higher spals in the war right now and it was only dragon that got through after we AB'ed him, and he dropped land to 5k acres (i did the same thing from 22k to 18k earlier. it's a pretty sound move after being ab'ed in a war)

what this post is about, celphi, is that CD's should not be so costly.

Celphi

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May 8th 2015, 21:00:33

But they should IMO. I would simply use ATTACK INTELLIGENCE CENTER on whomever was making me lose troops.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Celphi

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May 8th 2015, 21:03:58

You can basically kill any country with it.

With Luck + AIC + High SPAL, a player cannot recover their spy population fast enough in 24hrs.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Celphi

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May 8th 2015, 21:06:17

You can drop their total SPY population to 1/5th from 40 AICs.

That's 1.5 mil spies to 300k spies. There's no way to recover from that.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Vamps

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May 8th 2015, 21:33:09

Are cd's any more powerful with their effect on a country than bomb structures or demos? Spy ops are very powerful, and they have been for a long time. I feel it's more logical to discuss the appropriate ratio of spies:troops or overall spal:production that you should have, rather than question a single op?

Vamps

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May 8th 2015, 21:40:41

Look at an example most of the community is comfortable with - chems. You can die in 1/3 of the hits to chems as opposed to traditional br/gs. If someone complained though, the reaction is typically "you should have had more sdi."

If you have 10m troops and 1m spies, and are having an issue with cd's, why not say "you should have had more spies, or kept less troops on hand?"

It's a similar argument with bomb structures. Is it incredibly powerful? I believe so. Is it too powerful? I'm not convinced - maybe we need to look at our ratios of spies to troops/production a little differently before asking for the game coding to change

Celphi

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May 8th 2015, 21:50:46

They're almost all the same. Basically, if you have roughly 60% of whatever you're attacking, you can inflict the most dmg on that type.

Basically 40 attacks will drop any population to 1/5th its original size, provided that:
1) All 40 attacks are successful

Most of the damage occurs at the beginning since there is a greater total amount in the beginning. SPY OPS has no DR.

For an example: 1 SR = Current population / 25.

This was a war set, IMO an appropiate SPAL to have by turn 1500 is at least 100. Especially with so many players in play. On an individual server, you can get away with a much smaller SPAL because not everyone is trying to kill you.

Demos are just not worth it IMO.
It's far more productive to use either SR or CD. Remember, by using 7 demos, that's 7/40 SPY ops that you can no longer use against your target. I'm sure some will argument with that statement, but 70% of troops str is not > 7 CDs. Plus, if your target is online, readiness can be recovered by taking 7 turns. Whereas CD requires your target to buy more troops.

Edited By: Celphi on May 8th 2015, 21:55:06. Reason: [ Irrelevant ]

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

mdevol

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May 8th 2015, 22:04:32

I counter with: intra tagged land trading is OP.

There was a buffer put in place to prevent this. There is a land penalty if you don't have a certain amount of land compared to your target that nerfs your spies.

That being said, in this case, it was our war strategy paying off compared to LaFs strategy. You guys did your intra farming to boost land and stock and we adapted and went spy heavy and made that extra land work against you as it required more tech and more spies to defend against. It was an easy decision. We entered the war about 30-40 spal avg higher than you guys and it showed.

Your high nw countries left are the ones that had decent spal. Furthermore, part of ABing a country that already has 150+ spal and 5m troops is asking for this.

Surely what a man does when he is caught off his guard is the best evidence as to what sort of man he is. - C.S. Lewis

Celphi

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May 8th 2015, 22:11:30

Anyone in LaF can see my thread on boxcar. I predicted all this in a single thread.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

mdevol

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May 8th 2015, 22:20:21

LAF was about 4 days late building ICs. It made all the difference. Live and learn.

Surely what a man does when he is caught off his guard is the best evidence as to what sort of man he is. - C.S. Lewis

Celphi

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May 8th 2015, 22:37:48

Exactly what I posted., lol.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

HavocMD

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May 8th 2015, 23:40:32

Looking forward to netting sets where MMRs are set to have a 150SPAL...

Celphi

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May 9th 2015, 0:00:55

This wasn't a netting set. It was a pre-arrianged war starting on day 1.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Vic

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May 9th 2015, 0:38:15

celphi you are a bit off. Your strat may have had a higher spal, but the production was small. They wouldn't have needed to cd 10k production countries so you are inadvertently manipulating the facts imo.
When you analysis the war stats you have to consider activity as well. Sol has some serious war activity that maybe laf hasn't fully had in a lot of war sets.

Truth is the best countries would have been 20k hybrids with 4k indies and max Indy tech . Could get the same spal as your 10k set up had , but with some more production

Vic

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May 9th 2015, 0:41:28

Get some facts straight too. It was pre arranged for rage to be able to help. They set up as such. (Like the pre arranged wars or not it's a fact this one was pre arranged and I don't care, I'm not getting into the politics of it)
They were hit earlier than expected and it also changed the dynamics of the war

Celphi

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May 9th 2015, 0:54:51

Originally posted by Vic:

My SPAL was at 130 at turn 1500/ 43 missiles/ all tech maxd/ 2bil on hand/1mil oil on hand.

The 20k hybrids are just not possible. Not against a formidable war oppenent.

The other 20k techers had 40-80 SPAL @ turn 1600.
To be on par, a 20k techer would require 400k in each tech and 600k in SDI. (10* 400k + 600k) 4.6mil tech
Plus 4k indies which means only 15k would actually be labs.
2 bil cash on hand
1 mil barrels of oil
8mil troops
6mil turrets
500k tanks

All completed by turn 1600? Not happening. (I think the LaF who got lemming'd. Didn't have has medical maxed, because there simply wasn't enough time to max it using that strategy.)

That's why you didn't see a single SOL anywhere near 20k land.

I do agree their activity is higher, but, wouldn't that be another reason to go with 10-12k land? It's far easier to defend.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Vic

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May 9th 2015, 0:58:09

you are acting like we are working in a static environment and with absolute statements too. there are a ton of variables in this war.

Celphi

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May 9th 2015, 0:59:58

I'm just referencing to the Tyranny techers only.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Celphi

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May 9th 2015, 1:00:43

Everyone ended up dropping the land anyways. So if production really was better why drop the land?

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Vic

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May 9th 2015, 1:12:11

really celphi?

country A production of 20k for 5-10 days
country B production of 10k for 5-10 days
at this point country A has far more stocked

country A gets ab'ed and drops land down to 15k
now instead of doubled production, country A has 50% more production for a few days

country A then gets ab'ed or br'ed more and drops land to 10k.
now we have two of the same countries. just country A could eat country B for dinner

you get analysis paralysis sometimes i think :p
all i know is my country is still standing

mdevol

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May 9th 2015, 1:12:23

At the end of the day, this war was arranged to boost activity and get people back into irc channels and talking with folks they don't that with regularly. Yea, we all play to win, but in this case everybody that participated and had good fun conversation in game and in irc won out.

This game can be frustrating and annoying at times but the bigger picture is the community that we share thricing, and this war took that a step forward.

I want to thank all those that took part in it, win or lose. It has been fun and the war rooms have been full of conversation and fun even outside of warchats.

I am hoping it is the same case for your side.

Surely what a man does when he is caught off his guard is the best evidence as to what sort of man he is. - C.S. Lewis

Vic

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May 9th 2015, 1:13:17

and to answer your question directly - why drop the land if production was better?
because we are at war, and bpt goes down and costs to rebuild go up and now i'm personally just trying to stay alive :p

but by all means, it made sense for me to have that higher production earlier on

Vic

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May 9th 2015, 1:14:11

right back at you mdevol. sol and md know i love playful trash talking and i've enjoyed some polite back and forth with some of you.

i think it's been fun! looking forward to netting again though :p

Celphi

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May 9th 2015, 1:56:21

Originally posted by Vic:

Actually., I had more tech than both of them,. because I teched sooner. It wasn't until turn 1500 were we even in tech, but they had 1/2 the tech %. Even then, my tech could have been higher had I went with their SPAL strategy.

By turn 1640 they weren't ready for war. And that's when it was announced war would start. Unfortunate for me and good for them,. The war started 300 turns beyond the original announced date. They were still teaching while I had full turns ready to go.

Im not arguing that having 20k land is worse., I'm saying there wasn't enough time to take advantage of the higher land/tpt.

In the scenario you gave,. It works if they actually had the same tech % as me. But they didn't. Their MS was low., medical was low, warfare was low., weapons was low.. And so it was much harder for them to defend 20k land than me defending 10k land.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Untagged Hunter

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May 9th 2015, 2:18:47

Go drink some beer

enshula

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May 9th 2015, 4:52:55

sol doesnt even have 120+ spal on their techers

maybe one of them does

spal isnt bad but the way you were playing didnt make sense, it wasnt bad but it wasnt optimum

running a techer with low stock super high spal and mass missiles means your stock was smaller than other people, income was smaller and to use all your spies and missiles your income gets even smaller

there were a number of issues with the war and spal was only one of them

enshula

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May 9th 2015, 4:54:38

as to cd being overpowered it has a lot to do with gs getting buffs and br getting nerfs recently

mrford

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May 9th 2015, 5:04:16

7 demos and 20 CSs (all need to be successful) will reduce a target's GS break to 30%. roughly. CDer has to have high troops.

5 mill to 1.5mill raw, in 27 ops.

Swagger of a Chupacabra

[21:37:01] <&KILLERfluffY> when I was doing FA stuff for sof the person who gave me the longest angry rant was Mr Ford

Marshal

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May 9th 2015, 9:54:37

Originally posted by mrford:

20 CSs

counter strikes?

:P

Patience: Yep, I'm with ELK and Marshal.

ELKronos: Patty is more hairy.

Gallery: K at least I am to my expectations now.

LadyGrizz boobies is fine

NOW3P: Morwen is a much harsher mistress than boredom....

Celphi

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May 9th 2015, 10:05:48

Originally posted by enshula:

sol doesnt even have 120+ spal on their techers

maybe one of them does

That's why 120 SPAL would have offered enough protection against most spy attacks. :P

I thought only BR was nerfed to be more in line with ABs. Did GS really get a dmg ' buff ' ? The dmg %s look the same to me per attack.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

XiQter MD

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May 9th 2015, 10:08:36

CD is prefectly balaned now stop whining

mdevol

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May 9th 2015, 10:25:25

We only had 120 spal on techers because that's all they needed to be safe. That was strategy.

I was actually quite shocked to see that laf had more countries under 25 spal than they did over 70 at fs

Surely what a man does when he is caught off his guard is the best evidence as to what sort of man he is. - C.S. Lewis

Requiem

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May 9th 2015, 13:04:21

25 spal is too low for most wars. The "spal needed to protect yourself" isn't a static number it depends on your opposition...

I've known spies were important for years this is no surprise. Spies might be a bit op but given you know how powerful they can be why not get more, even if it costs you some production? Your going to lose more production after they CD/ stir rebs you then kill you :p

Vic

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May 9th 2015, 13:20:30

req why do you spend so much time posting on this forum and posting about this game... but not playing it? :p

Requiem

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May 9th 2015, 13:57:40

The honest answer is the game bores me to death but I keep checking the forums because 1. More drama than an episode of Dr. Phil and 2. I'm just that cool

enshula

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May 9th 2015, 14:08:56

Originally posted by Celphi:

Originally posted by enshula:

sol doesnt even have 120+ spal on their techers

maybe one of them does

the gs buff was to do with cash and tech, thats pretty recent

Marshal

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May 9th 2015, 14:25:39

and production tied to population so even failed killrun hurts country alot.

enshula

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May 9th 2015, 14:40:05

Originally posted by mdevol:

theres only one sol techer over 120 spal now that i see is what i mean

im saying 'even sol didnt go that high on spal for techers'

the techers are generally lower on spal

Vic

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May 9th 2015, 14:48:27

enshula scored 380m last set

Celphi

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May 9th 2015, 15:48:34

Originally posted by enshula:

the gs buff was to do with cash and tech, thats pretty recent

You must be referring to when you're below 80% max population.

Depending on what % you're at.
Switching to 70% rate is the easiest way to get your production back asap. (Unless you're casher).

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Lord Tarnava

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May 9th 2015, 16:52:46

Celphi, for the '20k techers didn't max techs'

Entering the war I had 12:1 in all war and production techs and 17:1 SDI

I also had full turns, 70m bushels 2.5b cash(which I spent buying up before running turns obviously) and was sitting t10. My spal was also 65:1 which I honestly thought was enough given I had 12:1 spy tech added on and one of my allies had 2m spies the other had over 1m also. Techers don't generally use spies other than defense.

Even though I lost 800m cash buying food on PM with a fat finger and 7m troops in CDs, was a EM dump... I managed to break every day until finally being killed yesterday. Production and stock matter. Also if my allies hadn't both died in short order before I could get new ones, they never would have succeeded that many CDs on me in a row

As for we were lucky it started later, I know myself at least was privy to the delays in war and planned accordingly

earf

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May 9th 2015, 17:56:58

Vic you horse ass theres already a thread http://earthempires.com/...owered-36085?t=1431125544

Celphi

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May 9th 2015, 18:24:08

I'm not disputing the advantage of 20k land vs 10k land at turn 2000+. That's obvious.

However, we weren't told to be ready by 2000.

We were told to be ready by turn 1640 and to have 180 of those turns saved. There's no math in the world going to make you ready for war by turn 1640-180= 1460 with 20k land, 4.6mil tech, with 100+ SPAL.

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

Lord Tarnava

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May 9th 2015, 18:47:50

^my initial plan was 14k, stock.

When war was delayed I pushed higher

locket

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May 9th 2015, 21:12:29

Originally posted by mdevol:

Dude you are so full of it. Sol never gets land and always has lots of spies. Dont act like this was a new plan