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qzjul Game profile

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Feb 21st 2015, 18:18:07

Hi all;

I found the bots had gotten stuck in a loop, so I've updated that to fix it.

Also, I've added code to make them play independently throughout the day, rather than all in a burst, and I've made it so it will recalculate the playtimes any time the standard deviation of nextplays is less than 18 turns; in other words, it tries to maintain a semi-decent distribution throughout the day.

I've additionally added a "price-tolerance" factor so that bots won't just buy up to $9999 tech; they will individually have caps between 2333 and 5250, or something like that ($3500 * 1.5, $3500 / 1.5). We shall see how that works.

Edited By: qzjul on Feb 21st 2015, 18:35:17
See Original Post
Finally did the signature thing.

Kingme Game profile

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Feb 21st 2015, 18:22:17

Could you figure in a way to tell them to buy within a certain threshold of the average price for a given day?

It just seems like techers are too strong.

qzjul Game profile

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Feb 21st 2015, 18:24:23

Eventually yes; but that would require having them have access to that sort of information, which - as you may have noticed - is not a standard part of the market information. An advanced stats page would be in order first :)
Finally did the signature thing.

qzjul Game profile

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Feb 21st 2015, 18:25:13

Part of the reason, incidentally, for the high prices is that the bots were all playing at once; this leads to a price spike each time they play. Hopefully even just spreading them out will help a bit.
Finally did the signature thing.

Kingme Game profile

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Feb 21st 2015, 18:26:26

I think it's definitely a step in the right direction.

Did all this start this set? Or are you waiting for next?

bepulse Game profile

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Feb 21st 2015, 18:26:57

Thanks for the update, qzjul!

Nerrus Game profile

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Feb 21st 2015, 18:30:48

Originally posted by bepulse:
Thanks for the update, qzjul!


+1 :)
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qzjul Game profile

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Feb 21st 2015, 18:35:50

Originally posted by Kingme:
Did all this start this set? Or are you waiting for next?



Starting 20 minutes ago :)

I have no problem fixing the bot behaviour live if it's obviously being silly.
Finally did the signature thing.

Kingme Game profile

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Feb 21st 2015, 18:39:37

You the man
Originally posted by qzjul:
Originally posted by Kingme:
Did all this start this set? Or are you waiting for next?



Starting 20 minutes ago :)

I have no problem fixing the bot behaviour live if it's obviously being silly.


You the man!

Getafix Game profile

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Feb 21st 2015, 19:23:05

Thanks qzjul. The bots are a very interesting addition to the game. It changes the market in some ways, and I think the caps on the price the bots buy at is a good improvement. I think its good that they add land to the game. Everyone has a chance to get some of that land so its fair. I've seen someone imitating a bot. That was scary. Its fun trying to figure out how to take advantage of the changes.

Kingme Game profile

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Feb 21st 2015, 19:32:54

I also like the bots, I think the more you can do to fine tune their play to mask their identity would be great.

As it stands now, their naming scheme is a bit too easy to catch imho.

Marshal Game profile

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Feb 21st 2015, 20:17:19

if ffa-bots would stop selling bushels under 37.
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Xninja Game profile

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Feb 21st 2015, 20:25:54

Originally posted by Marshal:
if ffa-bots would stop selling bushels under 37.


+1
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Furious999 Game profile

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Feb 21st 2015, 20:55:46

I agree they have been an interesting addition. You certainly have to up your land goal in Express and they change timing when to play turns. Not sure how they are working out in Alliance.

zerozerozero Game profile

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Feb 22nd 2015, 1:45:16

Originally posted by Kingme:
As it stands now, their naming scheme is a bit too easy to catch imho.


they should really look into using old country names (from previous sets) from other servers. For example, express should look at Primary or Tournament names and just randomly select a name there.

that way it would look as if someone from Primary came into play on express this set.

OR maybe use common words found in the forums (like cucumber or even bot). I'd think a name like 'I am a bot' or 'I kill cucumbers' would make attackers think twice before 2 or 3 tapping the country. :P

SupremeU Game profile

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Feb 22nd 2015, 1:49:14

Now that is some real time service. Good on you, qz. (Even if I am not a botiphile.)

qzjul Game profile

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Feb 22nd 2015, 3:37:35

Naming schemes are relatively tricky :) I've been trying to make the bots completely independent from the game code though - because the bots are all open source, as I've noted before (check out the AI forum) - so I'm a little bit hesitant to have it connecting to the game for names....
Finally did the signature thing.

qzjul Game profile

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Feb 22nd 2015, 3:38:48

Originally posted by Kingme:
As it stands now, their naming scheme is a bit too easy to catch imho.


Do you have any hints & ideas i could throw in off the top of your head?
Finally did the signature thing.

KoHeartsGPA Game profile

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Feb 22nd 2015, 3:57:51

Thanks for your work qzjul :-)
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ebert00 Game profile

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Feb 22nd 2015, 4:21:43

Isn't the point of the bots to provide extra land to express so new people don't get farmed as bad? This provides a better game play experience as well as stabilizing the market some.

qzjul Game profile

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Feb 22nd 2015, 4:37:03

Originally posted by ebert00:
Isn't the point of the bots to provide extra land to express so new people don't get farmed as bad? This provides a better game play experience as well as stabilizing the market some.


That is part of the point; the others are....

Originally posted by qzjul:
There's been a few questions as to the goals of this project, so I'll try to outline my thoughts here.

NPC's on Main Servers Goals
---------------------------------

There have been many instances of players stating that many of the stresses on the servers would be lessened with a significantly larger country base. These include:
- not enough total land on the server
- not enough "targets" (not enough countries in small alliances or untagged)
- new players being farmed/discouraged from playing
- a lack of market liquidity on small servers

The goals are thus:

A) Smooth the distribution of countries out (towards the low end especialy), so that there is a more natural curve to average land and networth, rather than an abrupt dropoff below the major clans; this will provide more "targets" for more people.

A.1) Caveat to that is that the "targets" should not be land farms; but should be able to retaliate, according to some probability.

A.2) Caveat is also that the bots should not be easily identifiable *as bots*; anonymity should keep people on their toes.

B) By providing many additional countries in the low end, shield/hide ACTUAL new players from being farmed to death.

C) Similar to B, by providing many additional countries in the low end, provide countries to be ranked against for ACTUAL new players, and targets for new players, so that they can participate in attacking, and also feel like they are making progress, in being able to go from say rank 1500 to rank 500 rather than perpetually being at rank 750 because of farming, lack of targets, and lack of other countries of similar skill.

D) By having many additional countries of a variety of strategies, add liquidity to the market on small servers -- for example, there is little demand for many less-used techs in tournament, making the prices likely to be volatile.

E) Similar to the above, provide liquidity during major events (server wars) by having a significant pool of unaligned countries still participate in the market.

F) Later goal: Make FFA strings able to compete together in FFA

G) Later goal: Make Teams to provide competition in Team server, and to provide small alliances to contend with in Alliance.

H) Later goal: Make small alliances (possibly able to accept/join human clans??) able to compete in alliance/ffa
Finally did the signature thing.

Furious999 Game profile

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Feb 22nd 2015, 16:42:39

I am a bit doubtful about the need for anonimity. And harbour some doubts also as to whether it matters that they do not make hits.

While you are seeking anonimity the list of names to choose from could be from any game or game hosting service. I don't know if access could be gained to any such list of usernames but I take it that would not give the link the this site which you seek to avoid.

SupremeU Game profile

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Feb 24th 2015, 5:24:53

Originally posted by Furious999:
I am a bit doubtful about the need for anonimity.


No, no you are not.

Hammer Game profile

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Feb 24th 2015, 23:26:09

Nice job, qz...thank you. I, too, think the bots are a nice addition to the game.

You could name them all landfarm and see how many are farmed before we see a retal. That would be ford!

qzjul Game profile

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Feb 25th 2015, 17:42:56

heh
Finally did the signature thing.

Xninja Game profile

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Feb 25th 2015, 22:08:32

Originally posted by qzjul:
Originally posted by Kingme:
As it stands now, their naming scheme is a bit too easy to catch imho.


Do you have any hints & ideas i could throw in off the top of your head?


Real places be a good place to start ;)

Cities, Parks, Lakes....

In the end though what you decide can't be made public if your trying to make them not stand out :p

Or give every bot a name with a passion/trait and go from there. Like the bot has its own personallity, things that it likes which makes it determin its country name. After all I'm sure that's how most name their countries. Some spawn of their ego seeping out :p
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braden Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 2:05:40

naming scheme? canadian prime ministers and their cabinet ministers. you're welcome.

Marshal Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 2:17:07

or world leaders, putin would get killed quite quickly oop.
Patience: Yep, I'm with ELK and Marshal.

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Gallery: K at least I am to my expectations now.

LadyGrizz boobies is fine

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SupremeU Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 2:32:40

I'm with XNinja, give them real country names or cities as in city states. It would make it obvious they were bots until others started adopting similar names. It would be interesting to see if certain countries or city-states got tagged more than others.

I would prefer hitting an actual place rather than Captain Ravenhead Johnson or whatever the nom du jour for country is. Of course, I prefer tagging real players as they are more likely to whine.

Kingme Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 2:43:38

I'm on the complete opposite end of the spectrum.

Do a better job of randomizing their names, and make them blend in with real players as best as possible. Make it a gamble for hitting them, rather than having them be farmland with no consequences.

You can't win currently without farming the bots.

SupremeU Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 3:06:21

Any suggestion as to how to do a better job randomizing or blending in names with real players as best as possible? zerozerozero mentioned lifting names from other servers which is a great idea. However, not everybody plays on the same servers so recognizing names can be moot, some players might not appreciate seeing their name lifted (can't blame them) while others might be flattered (again can't blame them), and some names are quite offensive/tasteless and should be discouraged from use.

Furthermore, as I just stated above it won't be long before players start masking their names to seems as bots like I tend to do already, waiting just waiting for that 2nd attack. That said we clearly have different objectives so I respect your difference in opinion.

Kingme Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 3:18:43

Many players are doing what you suggested (masking their names to seem as bots).

Using a word generator works fine, but the naming scheme is waaaay to obvious right now. Get rid of the upper case letters for the beginning of each word. Mix it up, have a combination of upper and lowercase letters in some names. Have some be all upper, have some be all lower.

That would be the start, then we need to mask the play types. I think QZ has already started working on that.

SupremeU Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 3:47:17

Playfully disagree. ;-) But to each their own.

braden Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 3:52:45

yea, because you know who served as john turners minister of fisheries and oceans, kingme. how could we get more random than that?

Getafix Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 4:06:15

I remember him, wasn't that Horatio Humungous Codpiece?

SupremeU Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 4:08:28

Originally posted by Getafix:
I remember him, wasn't that Horatio Humungous Codpiece?


No, that was a bot borrowing his name.

bepulse Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 4:39:54

imo the biggest giveaway is the 0 turns on hand.

bepulse Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 4:41:36

i got really freaked out when i spy op'd a bot that I had hit a bunch of times and it had turns stored... I thought I was going to get massive retal'd...

Hammer Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 4:43:49

Originally posted by bepulse:
imo the biggest giveaway is the 0 turns on hand.


Agreed. Last week I skipped a few because they had turns stored as in playing delayed. Later, they were at zero and everybody was farming them.

Xninja Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 15:02:12

Originally posted by Kingme:
I'm on the complete opposite end of the spectrum.

Do a better job of randomizing their names, and make them blend in with real players as best as possible. Make it a gamble for hitting them, rather than having them be farmland with no consequences.

You can't win currently without farming the bots.


No me and you are on the same page. If they wanted them "known" then might as well have them be bot1, bot2, bot3, ect ect.

But to give every bot a name in its own and tie some kind of personality or special trait that is significant to its own would keep the randomness out there. Example, Bot#1 likes cars, so its country name is always dealing with cars in some way, Bot#2 likes pudding, so its country name is always dealing with pudding. Stuff like that. I am sure they are all run under 1 huge system and this would probably be hard to work in, I really don't know how the bot system works.

In the end it will have to be several different strings of themes to make them blend in. People, places, things.... go further, insults or praises, quotes, words in other languages, occupations....



Edited By: Xninja on Feb 26th 2015, 15:05:06
See Original Post
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qzjul Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 16:01:23

Originally posted by bepulse:
imo the biggest giveaway is the 0 turns on hand.


Interesting; I hadn't thought of this; I could fairly easily make them keep a rand() number of turns on hand
Finally did the signature thing.

qzjul Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 16:03:11

Originally posted by Xninja:
But to give every bot a name in its own and tie some kind of personality or special trait that is significant to its own would keep the randomness out there. Example, Bot#1 likes cars, so its country name is always dealing with cars in some way, Bot#2 likes pudding, so its country name is always dealing with pudding. Stuff like that. I am sure they are all run under 1 huge system and this would probably be hard to work in, I really don't know how the bot system works.


That is kindof a nifty idea!

Actually they did work "under one huge system" until just recently; When i changed the playtimes &etc, I made it so I actually have preferences for each bot (randomly generated at the moment, but there's no reason it couldn't carry over &etc); so we *could* go to certain bots having certain personalities &etc.
Finally did the signature thing.

Kingme Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 16:34:08

The turns on hand is DEFINITELY the biggest give away. It was what I was hinting to as a "play type".

If you randomize turns on hand/played, and did something with the naming as xninja suggested you'd be golden.
Once they started hitting back it would be ... dare I say... perfect?

braden Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 16:44:31

perfect would be you telling me who served as brian mulroneys minister of employment and social development

Kingme Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 16:59:46

Benoît Bouchard

braden Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 17:09:51

his wikipedia says minister of half a dozen others but not employment and social development!

braden Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 17:10:08

(but points for the effort, of course)

Kingme Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 17:14:25

Was it Barbara?

Damn foreigners!

braden Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 17:41:06

i have absolutely no idea who it was. neither do i know who john turners minister of fisheries and oceans was. that is the point. we can get land and learn canadian history. it's a win win and it helps the children. a win win win.

braden Game profile

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Feb 26th 2015, 17:42:00

but yes, much of my political ideology is mounted on that very principle, damn foreigners!
(that was for scott)