Oct 25th 2014, 23:01:00
seems we've come full circle?:P
[14:48:39] <S|snake> you asked for me?
[14:51:08] <Erdogan> hi
[14:51:59] <S|snake> hey
[14:52:23] <Erdogan> I wanted to talk to you about this reset, and the next few resets.
[14:52:32] <S|snake> ok
[14:52:38] <Erdogan> do you have time now?
[14:52:55] <S|snake> yep
[14:52:56] <S|snake> sure
[14:53:11] <Erdogan> you know SoL is hitting NA, I assume?
[14:53:41] <S|snake> I've heard it, although not dirrectly from sol
[14:54:03] <Erdogan> and that they are hitting with Imag and ZT, in all likelihood.
[14:54:30] <S|snake> yeah
[14:54:42] <Erdogan> I don't care about NA, to be honest
[14:55:01] <Erdogan> I find them shady and I haven't been active while they've been good, so I don't know anything other than my suspicion that they're shady.
[14:55:27] <Erdogan> while I was somewhat active, during SLIT's reign, I had an anti-coalition proposal
[14:55:37] <Erdogan> no idea if you ever saw that or heard of it, have you?
[14:56:14] <S|snake> i was retired for the start of slit reign, but i cant remember it off the top of my head
[14:56:21] <Erdogan> k
[14:56:27] <Erdogan> basically, in a nutshell:
[14:56:58] <Erdogan> I had lengthy talks with IX (Angy), TIE (Peki), and SoL (Dalyx) about how coalition wars were bad for the game, and for every alliance involved.
[14:57:16] <Erdogan> they agreed, and we were in the midst of setting terms of 'rules of engagement', in a way
[14:57:52] <Erdogan> I forget all the terms, but they were along the lines of removing revenge wars, roughly equal numbers in wars, removal of coalition/side versus side wars, and the likes.
[14:58:09] <Erdogan> I'm not looking to implement these terms now, however:
[14:58:24] <Erdogan> LaF has consistently, to my knowledge, expressed disinterest in coalitions and side vs side wars
[14:58:38] <Erdogan> TIE has consistently been disinterested in coalition wars under Ant's tenure, to my knowledge
[14:58:46] <Erdogan> SoL had been against them under Dalyx
[14:59:02] <Erdogan> WoG is against them, regardless of the popular thought of WoG aligning itself with IX
[14:59:06] <Erdogan> SoF is against it, etcetera.
[14:59:36] <Erdogan> I'm really not interested in side vs side wars or endless revenge, even if I spew nonsense about LaF all the time, I don't really have an interest in touching LaF.
[14:59:50] <Erdogan> how this relates to this reset:
[15:00:19] <Erdogan> NA hit SoL last reset. SoL responds by thrashing an unprepped NA this reset, with overwhelming force.
[15:00:40] <Erdogan> this war is bad for NA because it discourages them, along with any netgaining-inclined alliance, from ever striking a war alliance
[15:01:04] <Erdogan> the precedent will be established that should a netgaining alliance hit a war alliance, that war alliance--as they enjoy war--will fight that netgaining alliance for the foreseeable future.
[15:01:28] <Erdogan> in a game that is already lacking willing warring alliances, I don't like that precedent
[15:01:38] <Erdogan> it further hurts NA because, well, they'll receive an absolute beating.
[15:01:54] <Erdogan> it also hurts SoL, because SoL members enjoy a good war.
[15:02:10] <Erdogan> old school SoL is about one vs one wars, in the times of SoL vs RAGE, or SoL vs SoF.
[15:02:28] <Erdogan> to bring in other alliances alongside it against an unprepped NA will be no challenge at all.
[15:02:57] <Erdogan> in the end, all involved alliances will have engaged in a war that's detrimental to themselves, detrimental to netgaining alliances, and detrimental to warring practices as a whole in the game.
[15:03:15] <Erdogan> as I said initially: I don't care for NA. I'm not in favour of defending them or protecting them.
[15:03:52] <Erdogan> what I would like to do, however, is this:
[15:04:56] <Erdogan> (I'll just lift it from my post on our forum Razz)
[15:04:59] <Erdogan> Ultimately we want an end to these grudge wars as SoL is clearly perpetuating here, correct? Especially uneven grudge wars, fought with the pure intention of assured destruction of the enemy. These do nothing good for any individual alliance involved; NA loses as they're a netting alliance and are being sent the message not to engage in war (bad message, as the game lacks willing warring alliances); SoL loses because they fail to engage in a proper challenge to interest their memberships; and the game as a whole loses because the status quo remains.
[15:06:40] <Erdogan> in the end, I wanted to speak to you, along with other alliances to: 1) get a feeling of your interest in preventing such wars; 2) should you/other alliances have an interest, then we express that interest explicitly to SoL and ECT and informally adopt some rules of engagement.
[15:07:04] <Erdogan> I would like LaF to be able to hit WoG, for example, without being deterred by WoG going after LaF for the next year
[15:07:07] <Erdogan> or even the next reset.
[15:07:15] <Erdogan> thoughts?
[15:09:30] <S|snake> I agree with pretty much everything you said above, i've always been a promoter of only warring for a reason etc, the traditional values of the server have been pretty much lost with the string of pact breaking and coalition wars
[15:09:51] <Erdogan> yup.
[15:10:18] <Erdogan> I know that you would have little reason to believe that I'm genuine, but it's why I wanted to speak to you directly as opposed to you speaking to K, or someone less ... offensive?
[15:10:20] <S|snake> the one thing i would say is, where one alliance blindsides another, revenge wars arnt neccessarily a bad thing
[15:10:28] <Erdogan> true
[15:10:41] <Erdogan> but is this a case where NA blindsided SoL last set?
[15:11:04] <S|snake> i dont believe so
[15:11:15] <S|snake> i knew about it a month before hand so if they didnt know they are incompetent
[15:11:18] <Erdogan> same
[15:11:21] <Erdogan> and I'm not even active, so.
[15:12:00] <Erdogan> basically, what I had proposed to our leadership in WoG, and what I would like to do if you and a couple of other alliances agree, is to make these feelings abundantly clear to ECT.
[15:12:15] <Erdogan> and I would actually like to establish a counter balance to alliances that want to perpetuate side versus side wars
[15:12:23] <S|snake> But for instance lets say going back a bit, md breaking a pact to hit laf
[15:12:32] <S|snake> something like that cant just be forgotten as a one set thing
[15:12:35] <Erdogan> I don't favour actually engaging in war, but I want to deter SoL from perpetuating this sort of thing.
[15:12:40] <Erdogan> yup, I understand that
[15:12:51] <Erdogan> in my rules of engagement that we almost drafted, it allowed for things like that.
[15:13:36] <S|snake> The main problem i find is where one of the so called "top tier" alliances gets a beat down, the tendency has too often been call in your friends
[15:13:44] <S|snake> be it through fa, or gangbang
[15:13:57] <S|snake> both of which need to be regulated during wars imo
[15:17:44] <S|snake> But yeah i am definately in favour of a code of conduct type of thing
[15:17:57] <S|snake> the question of course becomes how will it be enforced/interpreted
[15:19:14] <S|snake> i can imaginge it creating a debate around what constitutes a revenge war and what is just picking on an alliance that doesnt want to war
[15:21:47] <Erdogan> sorry, had a phone call
[15:22:37] <Erdogan> yeah, it's tough
[15:22:44] <Erdogan> you don't want a UN-sort of situation coming to be
[15:23:01] <Erdogan> in which the top tier alliances get to monitor/control things to their benefit
[15:23:17] <S|snake> and definately no veto system heh
[15:23:19] <Erdogan> what it would take is essentially what we're doing in this discussion though:
[15:23:30] <Erdogan> I don't care about NA at all, and I don't dislike SoL
[15:23:55] <Erdogan> but I don't want certain events to transpire, such as the SoL thrashing of NA in these circumstances
[15:23:59] <Erdogan> and neither would you
[15:24:12] <Erdogan> and neither do many people involved in the game, from what I know
[15:24:15] <S|snake> well, from what i'm told na are on red alert and prep'ing solely from war
[15:24:21] <Erdogan> (though you're the first alliance I'm talking to about this, btw)
[15:24:27] <S|snake> although i do see why the war should be avoided
[15:24:36] <S|snake> i told them not to war last set yet alone this heh
[15:24:43] <Erdogan> yup
[15:25:22] <S|snake> tbh me and maki arnt on the best of terms after last reset so i dont really know sols plans like i used to heh
[15:25:26] <Erdogan> another difficulty:
[15:25:35] <Erdogan> I don't want this to be just talk, you know
[15:25:52] <Erdogan> but at the same time, it seems contradictory to form a 'group' that fights against side vs side wars. Razz
[15:26:17] <S|snake> yeah
[15:26:20] <Erdogan> say with this war, for example
[15:26:48] <Erdogan> the only way to deter SoL is to have a counter balance, or to deter them politically by having virtually every alliance agree that SoL's doing the wrong thing.
[15:27:19] <Erdogan> but I think the only actual deterrence is a counter balance ... and that, well, that's not something I think even WoG would be prepared to do (to defend NA in this war)
[15:28:08] <Erdogan> ideas on how that could work? to provide deterrence without having to form a group to war?
[15:29:04] <S|snake> well generally overwhelming political presure might be enough
[15:29:13] <Erdogan> yup
[15:29:23] <Erdogan> and it'd allow for justification for a real counter balance...
[15:29:48] <Erdogan> so this is what I'm wanting to do right now regarding the situation we're faced with today:
[15:30:14] <Erdogan> Ayatollah will probably toss up a thread on ECT explicitly stating our stance on this war and wars of this nature in general
[15:30:52] <Erdogan> and what I'd like to do is have various alliances, of all 'sides', friends or not, agreeing with it ... and with that, hopefully effect the sort of change we've discussed here.
[15:31:23] <S|snake> i'd be in favour of something along those lines
[15:32:45] <Erdogan> okay, so if Aya tosses up a post today, you'd make your feelings clear there too?
[15:32:57] <Erdogan> provided it's along the lines of what we've discussed.
[15:33:59] <S|snake> yeah
[15:34:27] <Erdogan> okay, great. who else should we talk to about this?
[15:34:28] <S|snake> albeit, i would probably also tell maki that i would and why before hand
[15:34:34] <Erdogan> no big deal
[15:34:40] <Erdogan> this isnt meant to be a surprise to him
[15:34:44] <Erdogan> everything's above board
[15:37:42] <S|snake> ok, well i'll make sure i read ect then
[15:37:55] <S|snake> although, do you know when the sol fs supposedly is?
[15:37:59] <Erdogan> he'll touch base with you when he posts it
[15:38:01] <Erdogan> i wont be online
[15:38:04] <S|snake> looking at the markets i was suspecting a fs coming soon
[15:38:07] <Erdogan> i'm going out with my ex-fiancee tonight
[15:38:13] <Erdogan> haha
[15:38:19] <Erdogan> hmm, 6pm?
[15:38:27] <Erdogan> I think it's supposed to be 6pm, but not sure.
[15:38:52] <S|snake> if its 6pm, theres clearly not going to be an avoidance of the war
[15:38:57] <Erdogan> nope
[15:39:02] <Erdogan> flamey thinks it's at 8pm.
[15:39:21] <Erdogan> i'm more concerned about war in general than this specific war, but ideally this one's avoided too.
[15:39:30] <S|snake> k
[15:39:38] <S|snake> as far as other alliances to talk to
[15:40:30] <S|snake> sof i know will be on board, tie too, and then ix i suppose would complete the alliances worth their salt
[15:40:39] <Erdogan> haha
[15:40:45] <Erdogan> I was planning on talking to MD, PDM, Omega as well
[15:41:44] <S|snake> i'm sure they'd go along with it too, although pdm will probably make some bullish statement about how their the best to go along with it
[15:42:32] <Erdogan> what's with their ego recently, anyway?
[15:42:38] <Erdogan> it seemed to come on all of a sudden
[15:42:47] <S|snake> i have no idea heh
[15:42:55] <Erdogan> did they do something good that I missed?
[15:43:06] <S|snake> they cant netgain, they havnt warred solo in about 5 years, i dont really know what they are bragging about
[15:44:04] <Erdogan> ah well, I'd be interested in seeing them vs. SoF 1v1
[15:44:16] <S|snake> should be good
[15:44:32] <S|snake> i'm heavily backing sof to win though
[15:44:39] <Erdogan> same
[15:44:58] <Erdogan> sof's better now, at least that's the consensus in wog. i wasn't active when we fought them, but it was apparently close.
[15:45:35] <S|snake> considering sof didnt have a website when the war started, they did amazingly well
[15:45:49] <Erdogan> ah
[15:45:52] <Erdogan> didnt know that either.
[14:48:39] <S|snake> you asked for me?
[14:51:08] <Erdogan> hi
[14:51:59] <S|snake> hey
[14:52:23] <Erdogan> I wanted to talk to you about this reset, and the next few resets.
[14:52:32] <S|snake> ok
[14:52:38] <Erdogan> do you have time now?
[14:52:55] <S|snake> yep
[14:52:56] <S|snake> sure
[14:53:11] <Erdogan> you know SoL is hitting NA, I assume?
[14:53:41] <S|snake> I've heard it, although not dirrectly from sol
[14:54:03] <Erdogan> and that they are hitting with Imag and ZT, in all likelihood.
[14:54:30] <S|snake> yeah
[14:54:42] <Erdogan> I don't care about NA, to be honest
[14:55:01] <Erdogan> I find them shady and I haven't been active while they've been good, so I don't know anything other than my suspicion that they're shady.
[14:55:27] <Erdogan> while I was somewhat active, during SLIT's reign, I had an anti-coalition proposal
[14:55:37] <Erdogan> no idea if you ever saw that or heard of it, have you?
[14:56:14] <S|snake> i was retired for the start of slit reign, but i cant remember it off the top of my head
[14:56:21] <Erdogan> k
[14:56:27] <Erdogan> basically, in a nutshell:
[14:56:58] <Erdogan> I had lengthy talks with IX (Angy), TIE (Peki), and SoL (Dalyx) about how coalition wars were bad for the game, and for every alliance involved.
[14:57:16] <Erdogan> they agreed, and we were in the midst of setting terms of 'rules of engagement', in a way
[14:57:52] <Erdogan> I forget all the terms, but they were along the lines of removing revenge wars, roughly equal numbers in wars, removal of coalition/side versus side wars, and the likes.
[14:58:09] <Erdogan> I'm not looking to implement these terms now, however:
[14:58:24] <Erdogan> LaF has consistently, to my knowledge, expressed disinterest in coalitions and side vs side wars
[14:58:38] <Erdogan> TIE has consistently been disinterested in coalition wars under Ant's tenure, to my knowledge
[14:58:46] <Erdogan> SoL had been against them under Dalyx
[14:59:02] <Erdogan> WoG is against them, regardless of the popular thought of WoG aligning itself with IX
[14:59:06] <Erdogan> SoF is against it, etcetera.
[14:59:36] <Erdogan> I'm really not interested in side vs side wars or endless revenge, even if I spew nonsense about LaF all the time, I don't really have an interest in touching LaF.
[14:59:50] <Erdogan> how this relates to this reset:
[15:00:19] <Erdogan> NA hit SoL last reset. SoL responds by thrashing an unprepped NA this reset, with overwhelming force.
[15:00:40] <Erdogan> this war is bad for NA because it discourages them, along with any netgaining-inclined alliance, from ever striking a war alliance
[15:01:04] <Erdogan> the precedent will be established that should a netgaining alliance hit a war alliance, that war alliance--as they enjoy war--will fight that netgaining alliance for the foreseeable future.
[15:01:28] <Erdogan> in a game that is already lacking willing warring alliances, I don't like that precedent
[15:01:38] <Erdogan> it further hurts NA because, well, they'll receive an absolute beating.
[15:01:54] <Erdogan> it also hurts SoL, because SoL members enjoy a good war.
[15:02:10] <Erdogan> old school SoL is about one vs one wars, in the times of SoL vs RAGE, or SoL vs SoF.
[15:02:28] <Erdogan> to bring in other alliances alongside it against an unprepped NA will be no challenge at all.
[15:02:57] <Erdogan> in the end, all involved alliances will have engaged in a war that's detrimental to themselves, detrimental to netgaining alliances, and detrimental to warring practices as a whole in the game.
[15:03:15] <Erdogan> as I said initially: I don't care for NA. I'm not in favour of defending them or protecting them.
[15:03:52] <Erdogan> what I would like to do, however, is this:
[15:04:56] <Erdogan> (I'll just lift it from my post on our forum Razz)
[15:04:59] <Erdogan> Ultimately we want an end to these grudge wars as SoL is clearly perpetuating here, correct? Especially uneven grudge wars, fought with the pure intention of assured destruction of the enemy. These do nothing good for any individual alliance involved; NA loses as they're a netting alliance and are being sent the message not to engage in war (bad message, as the game lacks willing warring alliances); SoL loses because they fail to engage in a proper challenge to interest their memberships; and the game as a whole loses because the status quo remains.
[15:06:40] <Erdogan> in the end, I wanted to speak to you, along with other alliances to: 1) get a feeling of your interest in preventing such wars; 2) should you/other alliances have an interest, then we express that interest explicitly to SoL and ECT and informally adopt some rules of engagement.
[15:07:04] <Erdogan> I would like LaF to be able to hit WoG, for example, without being deterred by WoG going after LaF for the next year
[15:07:07] <Erdogan> or even the next reset.
[15:07:15] <Erdogan> thoughts?
[15:09:30] <S|snake> I agree with pretty much everything you said above, i've always been a promoter of only warring for a reason etc, the traditional values of the server have been pretty much lost with the string of pact breaking and coalition wars
[15:09:51] <Erdogan> yup.
[15:10:18] <Erdogan> I know that you would have little reason to believe that I'm genuine, but it's why I wanted to speak to you directly as opposed to you speaking to K, or someone less ... offensive?
[15:10:20] <S|snake> the one thing i would say is, where one alliance blindsides another, revenge wars arnt neccessarily a bad thing
[15:10:28] <Erdogan> true
[15:10:41] <Erdogan> but is this a case where NA blindsided SoL last set?
[15:11:04] <S|snake> i dont believe so
[15:11:15] <S|snake> i knew about it a month before hand so if they didnt know they are incompetent
[15:11:18] <Erdogan> same
[15:11:21] <Erdogan> and I'm not even active, so.
[15:12:00] <Erdogan> basically, what I had proposed to our leadership in WoG, and what I would like to do if you and a couple of other alliances agree, is to make these feelings abundantly clear to ECT.
[15:12:15] <Erdogan> and I would actually like to establish a counter balance to alliances that want to perpetuate side versus side wars
[15:12:23] <S|snake> But for instance lets say going back a bit, md breaking a pact to hit laf
[15:12:32] <S|snake> something like that cant just be forgotten as a one set thing
[15:12:35] <Erdogan> I don't favour actually engaging in war, but I want to deter SoL from perpetuating this sort of thing.
[15:12:40] <Erdogan> yup, I understand that
[15:12:51] <Erdogan> in my rules of engagement that we almost drafted, it allowed for things like that.
[15:13:36] <S|snake> The main problem i find is where one of the so called "top tier" alliances gets a beat down, the tendency has too often been call in your friends
[15:13:44] <S|snake> be it through fa, or gangbang
[15:13:57] <S|snake> both of which need to be regulated during wars imo
[15:17:44] <S|snake> But yeah i am definately in favour of a code of conduct type of thing
[15:17:57] <S|snake> the question of course becomes how will it be enforced/interpreted
[15:19:14] <S|snake> i can imaginge it creating a debate around what constitutes a revenge war and what is just picking on an alliance that doesnt want to war
[15:21:47] <Erdogan> sorry, had a phone call
[15:22:37] <Erdogan> yeah, it's tough
[15:22:44] <Erdogan> you don't want a UN-sort of situation coming to be
[15:23:01] <Erdogan> in which the top tier alliances get to monitor/control things to their benefit
[15:23:17] <S|snake> and definately no veto system heh
[15:23:19] <Erdogan> what it would take is essentially what we're doing in this discussion though:
[15:23:30] <Erdogan> I don't care about NA at all, and I don't dislike SoL
[15:23:55] <Erdogan> but I don't want certain events to transpire, such as the SoL thrashing of NA in these circumstances
[15:23:59] <Erdogan> and neither would you
[15:24:12] <Erdogan> and neither do many people involved in the game, from what I know
[15:24:15] <S|snake> well, from what i'm told na are on red alert and prep'ing solely from war
[15:24:21] <Erdogan> (though you're the first alliance I'm talking to about this, btw)
[15:24:27] <S|snake> although i do see why the war should be avoided
[15:24:36] <S|snake> i told them not to war last set yet alone this heh
[15:24:43] <Erdogan> yup
[15:25:22] <S|snake> tbh me and maki arnt on the best of terms after last reset so i dont really know sols plans like i used to heh
[15:25:26] <Erdogan> another difficulty:
[15:25:35] <Erdogan> I don't want this to be just talk, you know
[15:25:52] <Erdogan> but at the same time, it seems contradictory to form a 'group' that fights against side vs side wars. Razz
[15:26:17] <S|snake> yeah
[15:26:20] <Erdogan> say with this war, for example
[15:26:48] <Erdogan> the only way to deter SoL is to have a counter balance, or to deter them politically by having virtually every alliance agree that SoL's doing the wrong thing.
[15:27:19] <Erdogan> but I think the only actual deterrence is a counter balance ... and that, well, that's not something I think even WoG would be prepared to do (to defend NA in this war)
[15:28:08] <Erdogan> ideas on how that could work? to provide deterrence without having to form a group to war?
[15:29:04] <S|snake> well generally overwhelming political presure might be enough
[15:29:13] <Erdogan> yup
[15:29:23] <Erdogan> and it'd allow for justification for a real counter balance...
[15:29:48] <Erdogan> so this is what I'm wanting to do right now regarding the situation we're faced with today:
[15:30:14] <Erdogan> Ayatollah will probably toss up a thread on ECT explicitly stating our stance on this war and wars of this nature in general
[15:30:52] <Erdogan> and what I'd like to do is have various alliances, of all 'sides', friends or not, agreeing with it ... and with that, hopefully effect the sort of change we've discussed here.
[15:31:23] <S|snake> i'd be in favour of something along those lines
[15:32:45] <Erdogan> okay, so if Aya tosses up a post today, you'd make your feelings clear there too?
[15:32:57] <Erdogan> provided it's along the lines of what we've discussed.
[15:33:59] <S|snake> yeah
[15:34:27] <Erdogan> okay, great. who else should we talk to about this?
[15:34:28] <S|snake> albeit, i would probably also tell maki that i would and why before hand
[15:34:34] <Erdogan> no big deal
[15:34:40] <Erdogan> this isnt meant to be a surprise to him
[15:34:44] <Erdogan> everything's above board
[15:37:42] <S|snake> ok, well i'll make sure i read ect then
[15:37:55] <S|snake> although, do you know when the sol fs supposedly is?
[15:37:59] <Erdogan> he'll touch base with you when he posts it
[15:38:01] <Erdogan> i wont be online
[15:38:04] <S|snake> looking at the markets i was suspecting a fs coming soon
[15:38:07] <Erdogan> i'm going out with my ex-fiancee tonight
[15:38:13] <Erdogan> haha
[15:38:19] <Erdogan> hmm, 6pm?
[15:38:27] <Erdogan> I think it's supposed to be 6pm, but not sure.
[15:38:52] <S|snake> if its 6pm, theres clearly not going to be an avoidance of the war
[15:38:57] <Erdogan> nope
[15:39:02] <Erdogan> flamey thinks it's at 8pm.
[15:39:21] <Erdogan> i'm more concerned about war in general than this specific war, but ideally this one's avoided too.
[15:39:30] <S|snake> k
[15:39:38] <S|snake> as far as other alliances to talk to
[15:40:30] <S|snake> sof i know will be on board, tie too, and then ix i suppose would complete the alliances worth their salt
[15:40:39] <Erdogan> haha
[15:40:45] <Erdogan> I was planning on talking to MD, PDM, Omega as well
[15:41:44] <S|snake> i'm sure they'd go along with it too, although pdm will probably make some bullish statement about how their the best to go along with it
[15:42:32] <Erdogan> what's with their ego recently, anyway?
[15:42:38] <Erdogan> it seemed to come on all of a sudden
[15:42:47] <S|snake> i have no idea heh
[15:42:55] <Erdogan> did they do something good that I missed?
[15:43:06] <S|snake> they cant netgain, they havnt warred solo in about 5 years, i dont really know what they are bragging about
[15:44:04] <Erdogan> ah well, I'd be interested in seeing them vs. SoF 1v1
[15:44:16] <S|snake> should be good
[15:44:32] <S|snake> i'm heavily backing sof to win though
[15:44:39] <Erdogan> same
[15:44:58] <Erdogan> sof's better now, at least that's the consensus in wog. i wasn't active when we fought them, but it was apparently close.
[15:45:35] <S|snake> considering sof didnt have a website when the war started, they did amazingly well
[15:45:49] <Erdogan> ah
[15:45:52] <Erdogan> didnt know that either.
you are all special in the eyes of fluff
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RUN IT IS A KILLER BUNNY!!!
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( ._.) -----)-->
(_(' )(' )
RUN IT IS A KILLER BUNNY!!!