No one's talking about the Scottish referendum.... only about guns & NFL players, so....

What are your thoughts on the Scottish independence movement?

To me, it has a lot of the same hallmarks of the 1995 Quebec referendum in Canada -- last minute pleas to stay by federal leaders, crazy assumptions by the separatists on how rosy things will be after separation, and an alienation of the rest of the country in trying to placate a group already perceived as getting a better deal that other members of the union.

The biggest issue I see is that Spain will block Scotland from joining the EU as to not let Catalonia and if that happens and Scotland isn't able to join the EU that will really hurt them. Either way, Scotland will lose any control or say over their own central bank if they separate which is a major problem that would, personally, cause me to vote no if I lived there.

Thoughts?

i personally hope they choose to remain a part of the uk.

may i ask why spain would block scotland from joining the eu?

FREE SCOTLAND! VOTE YES!

no you may not, bae

There is an area of Spain called Catalonia (Barcelona area) that wants to separate from Spain as they have a distinct culture and language and, back in the day, were essentially conquered by the rest of Spain.

They are already calling the Scotland vote historic for their struggle and they see a similar path to becoming a sovereign state -- while enjoying all the benefits of the EU, NATO, etc

Spain isn't in a great spot economically and Catalonia feels they would be better off going it alone. They're probably right assuming they could get a carbon copy of all of Spain's agreements. So expect Spain to vote "no" for Scotland's ascension into the EU as it sets precedence for their own territory to do the same thing. Spain needs Catalonia more than the UK needs Scotland, sadly.

Would one 'no' vote make them unable to join? That would appear to be huge deal.

tbh there are similarities but there are also several important differences.
1) there isn't the same kind of language/language protection issue.
The quebec independence issue stems from a resentment of various forms of cultural imposition on them and how they were treated prior to the 1970s by the "english".
Scotland appears to be more of an economic question and how Thatcher onwards screwed them (and how London prospered while the rest of the UK deteriorated). The loss of mining and heavy industry factors into this too imo.

2) The "big evil neighbor" factor. Lets face it an independent quebec would get fluffed over by the US in no time. you aren't gonna argue cultural sovereignty against the US very well. You also aren't going to have much leverage in trade negotiations/your main trade corrider is partly owned by them.
As for scotland I don't think anyone has that role.

3) the "accommodation" factor. Lets face it, Quebec and its powers are very much constitutionally protected in Canada and to dislodge most of that is damn near impossible. It also forced Canada to be very decentralized over the years. I don't think it's quite analogous with Scotland. I think the history is something like england sent in the army multiple times and had their way with them... could be wrong about that:P


Interestingly both situations are as a result of the UK:P

And as for conquered.. everything in Europe is conquered from someone else.. face it:P

SO IS EVERYTHING IN NORTH AMERICA!

thanks pang that makes perfect sense.
itll be interesting for me at least, to read anything nigel farrage has to say on the issue.

BOO HE ANSWERED ME ANYWAYS HEART

While I support anybody that strives to free themselves from British oppression, I wonder what exactly Scotland plans to do to support itself if they achieve independence. Most Scots who want to leave point to Britons parliament moving to the right and curtailing welfare and social programs as the reason - do the Scots really think they will be able to sustain the current levels of social giving without fiscal support from London? Do the Scots realize the implication of having to support their own healthcare system, highways, military, and education?

I'd not be that surprise to see a movement in Parliament to just cut them loose regardless of the vote. Scotland is a net economic loss for the UK, and fiscally the Brits would be better off without them. That would be an epic-ly classic Tory response.

scotland has offshore oil though the infrastructure to get it has not been upkept/maintained which makes this whole debate somewhat more contentious

"British Oppression"? lol
Ask Newfoundland about that.. the British did cut them lose in '49:P

spain has catalonia and basque which want to leave spain and form own nation so if scots vote yes then c and b will be next. can cat and bas support themselves is different question and same thing with getting to eu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnKkN-DjXt8

oil from the scots fields of the north sea is low quality, takes a lot of refining to get anything useful ... not much use as petrol/gas etc
infrastructure is ageing as well

<3 Noofieland :)

</3 independent Scotland ... someone divorced you because they didn't like you, would you be nice to them if there was no reason to be ? :P

Lots of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt)
The EU is supposedly this democratic institution, but for 90% of the population of Europe it's seen as anything but. Voting activity in EU elections is high if its over 20%
Now how does the EU say you cannot have democratic elections and decide what to do with your country?
It cannot - but Spain is the argument.

But Spain is the one with empty pockets and needing aid, aid Scotland and those nations closest to it are paying. Huff and Puff doesn't mean they're successful in bocking.
EU don't like this election one bit - but it would cease to have any credibility if it prevents some sort of amicable solution to an independent Scotland.



I could have sword that Isabelle of Castille married Ferdinand of Aragon, which ended up causing centuries of war in Europe, sent a semi-drunk named Columbus to discover the new world and founded Spanish Inquisition.
So basically Catalonia chose to form Espana with Castille.




Own highways, military, education and healthcare? Sounds like independence to me! That's what they're asking for, so surely they have some realization of that implication.
Roads already exist so mostly upkeet, same with education - military would be a simpleish split, division of assets and whatnot. Military expenses for Scotland would presumably be less than the division would entail as they'd be unlikely to go Rambo'ing into Iraq with Dubbya, or worry about ridiculously expensive submarines that cant sail a mile out of port without breaking down..
So there's already budget savings there..

And they got the oil.
How much is the question - if they got enough like the SNP contests, then Scotland will be better off without the South. If not then not obviously.

I've never met a Scotsman who identified as being from the UK, or Great Britain. They were always Scots. If they're that independent at hear, might as well be independent officially, as democracy - the lower it is the better it represents the desires of the people (see EU) - and ever since the French Revolution there's been this rollercoaster ride towards democracy. The Swiss are in the leading carriage.

Lets see how independent they are when all of those UK taxes quit pouring in.

on the plus side, look at how much better the rest of the UK will do after their taxes stop flowing to scotland :P

wales finally for the win?

FREEDOM™

"London" is pulling $80,000,000,000 of oil revenue away from Scotland every single year without them seeing much benefit from it. Heck, they don't even have a sovereign wealth fund unlike other European oil producing countries like Norway. If anything, that's enough to fund them already.

I would worry about Isis, not Scotland...

I read up. Apparently Scotland/England united when Elizabeth I died and her nephew King james (son of mary queen of scots) was asked to assume the throne of england making him king of both. There were the Jacobite rebellions later on though.

And yeah, the offshore oil was used to fund Thatchers' "economic mircale" by subsidizing tax cuts and economic policies which ruined scottland economically or at least accelerated the forgone conclusion.

This is at least one issue that was not caused by 19th century actions/british imperialism/ WW2 or the cold war. Finally a change of pace:P

tbh I have no objections to peaceful and democratic seperations or unions of countries. No point forcing peoples to be together or apart. While we are at it someone should piss off russia and advocate restoring koenigsburg to germany:P

I'm going to abandon the letters of power briefly, because I'm going to post several things which are not meant sarcastically, but would almost certainly be taken that way if typed powerfully.

As someone who married a Scot, and who just got back from Scotland a couple weeks ago, I have to wonder how many of the people posting here have spent any significant amount of time in Scotland or talking to Scots. I wonder that because I can't believe that only one person here has pointed out the following:



I think that is far more significant than most of you realize. Want to piss my wife off? Call her British!

My trip to Scotland this year was probably my 8th or 9th... and until this trip I think I could have counted on one hand the number of Union Jacks I'd seen on all my previous trips there. Most of the Scots I know consider themselves Scots first, and British subjects second (if at all)

Even if the Better Together campaign is correct that Scotland can't suvive on its own financially, would that be your only consideration if you were voting on this? If the British government offered your state or province a deal.... "join us and we'll give you free fluff"... would you vote for that? Or does being an American, Canadian, or whatever you are, mean more to you than just how much your government will promise to provide for you?

Personally, I'm skeptical of Better Together's economic arguments anyway:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-24866266

From that article....

Scots make up 8.3% of the UK's population, and account for 8.2% of the UK's taxes. That doesn't sound to me like a population that isn't contributing it's share.

Depending on which estimate you use, Scotland's share of the UK's debt is either 62% or 38% of Scotland's GDP. The UK as a whole has a debt to GDP ratio of over 90%.

Scotland's unemployment rate is lower than the rate for the UK as a whole.

People living in Scotland do earn slightly less on average than those living in England (about 14 pounds per week) but from my experience, that money goes a lot further in Scotland. Take 1,000 pounds to Glasgow or Edinburgh, and 1,000 pounds to London, I can guarantee you that money will last you longer up North.

When oil and gas are included in the figures, Scotland contributes over 26,000 pounds per capita to the UK's GDP. 4,000 more than the UK average.

Per capita, public expenditures in Scotland do exceed those in the whole of the UK by about 11 percent: 11,000 for the UK as a whole, 12,300 for Scotland. But did anybody else figure the percentages for the GDP figures in the preceding paragraph? Scotland's GDP per capita is *18%* higher than the UK as a whole.

One last thing... even if Better Together is correct that Scotland would be worse off outside the UK... Is that because Scotland cannot support itself? Or is it because 300 years of English laws and policies have forced Scotland to become dependent upon the UK? I know a lot of Scots who would argue it is the latter.

lol army aint come cheap lol.I scare they might pull a trick like Putin.We are defending the so called British Scotlander so we going occupy them and ANNEX them.NO MORE SCOTLAND

They voted no anyway.

And so it settled

William Wallace got his balls tortured for trying to get independence, and what do these modern pansies do? Vote NO.

They did not want to give up sucking on the teat of British welfare.

collective sigh of relief from the labor party lol

Hate to break it to you, but Scotland provides more in national revenue than they receive in national programs and entitlements. Thus Scotland is a net contributor and subsidizes the rest of the UK.

william wallace would be ashamed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

not permanently.