whats the views here?...

i am a freaking hard core american... but obama has been called on his bluff..

the picts off them standing together in a summit, then a pic of putin, barebreasting across a frigid river next to bamas pic in marthas vineyard on a bike, in a retarded ass bike helmut..... well, are the one of my most humilating moments as an american... we have no leadership!

and the world also knows it...

what are the thoughts here?

I'm Putin my money on Obama.

didn't you have a post recently where you said you were going to go fight your boss?

what was the result of that, or did that not happen like we all knew it wouldn't?

http://earthempires.com/...k/i-am-going-to-beat-the-fluff-out-of-my-boss-tomorrow-30020?t=1392755956

yep, there we go

It's not like the US can really do anything in this situation.
The EU needs Gasprom and the Crimea is of massive strategic value to Russia meaning they would be willing to push quite far if need be. Not only that but the Russians could retaliate in other ways which could be very damaging to US interests in the middle east (massively arming Iran or more directly propping up the Syrian army with advance weapons) amongst other things. And what does the US have to gain here really by pushing harder... nada. There's no way in hell the Russians would ever let a hostile army (in their eyes) be placed that close to them. Besides, there's nothing of value in the Crimea really to anyone but Russia/Ukraine other than its beach resorts :P

Let me ask you this: if Reagan or Johnson were president of the US right now, would anything go down differently? I doubt it. They might give better speeches but that would be about it.

i think the outrage against russia is pretty overblown. if there was a popular uprising and then a coup in colombia (or any of the bazillion countries the US has military bases in) you would most likely see US troops all over the regions they're stationed in "securing US interests" and no one would care. but since it's russia doing it everyone starts talking about the evil empire, same as if china did something like this in mongolia or something. and just a year or two back the US and european powers bombed libya into chaos and the same people up in arms over this were cheering it on. if russia actually tries to unilaterally annex land then that's different but the only thing i see is places like crimea who are more loyal to russia seceding on their own and going to russia

Down with the Commies! One World Order!

Ukraine IS Russia, don't they speak the same language? Let the Russians invade themselves if they want too! After the Soviet Union fell along came Ukraine and bunch of other Russian speaking countries. Their just taking back their populace! Who cares!

before the soviets, the ukraine was a distinct and sovereign nation. this said, it's been occupied or attacked for eight hundred years.

Putin is a sociopathic dictator. Obama is not. I pick Obama.

The US, in general, has no moral high ground after Iraq. Obama, Kerry, McCain, whoever speaks on the subject will still have that weight around their neck...

There's a really interesting documentary on US/Russian relations in the post-soviet era that I watched a year or two ago and it reveals a lot about the US/Russia relationship since then. Namely, America talking down to Russia on many issues (esp. security issues) while wanting Russia to blindly support US military (mis)adventures around the world, especially post-9/11 (ex. overflight and transportation network assistance into Afghanistan via Russia and other former Soviet republics). Meanwhile, NATO was coddling up with Russia's former allies & generally their "buffer" between historically aggressive European nations. Think about it. France, France+UK, Germany+Austria-Hungary, Triple Entente victors, Germany+Italy... all invaded Russia since 1800. There's always lots of distrust between Russia and the West so it's clear to see why Ukraine pivoting toward the EU causes issues. IMO ensuring they keep their strategically critical base at Sevastapol is well worth the consequences to Russia for essentially annexing it.

All that being said, Obama is definitely a better elected leader than Putin. But Putin is a much better authoritarian, which is why he's often perceived as having more strength than someone like Obama. The US needs to look inward more because the biggest issues facing America are at home. Who cares what's happening in Ukraine when there is SO much to do in America that will benefit Americans.

also, this!

apparently nobody liked my pun..

ERICA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxuRCDqFX0U

S. Palin would have been a better prez than the idiot B.O.

http://i.imgur.com/EzLjVAi.png

before that though it was part of Russia want it :P

Russia does have a long and intertwined history with Ukraine, they believe that the Russian state was born from Kievan Rus. Throughout history Ukraine has been part of the Poland-Lithuania Confederation and the Austro-Hungarian Empire, so although there has been a group of people who recognised themselves as the Ukranian people, there had never been any well-defined borders until they became part of the Soviet Union, where it became a region. During the Soviet period most of the Ukranians fought and died with Russians when opposing Hitler and the city of Kiev held out for a long time become a hero-city. After the war, a part of Poland was annexed to the country, which is where the majority of the staunchest pro-western and more unsavoury figures descend from and because there was no international border between Russia and Ukraine many Russians emmigrated to the Stalinist indutrial centres and agricultural rich regions of East Ukraine. The west of the country however always kept more of its European identity, hence the split.

Crimea is a different matter though. It's more its own entity, it was a Greek and Roman and Italian colony, it has been conquered by all the barbarian hordes and a vassal to the Turks until it was eventually conquered by Russia in 1783. At this time the population was mainly Tatar, but over the course of time the Russian population increased at their expense and after the end of WW2 Stalin expelled them all to central Asia for collaborating with the Nazis. In 1994 the Tatar population returned and now make up 12.1% of the population. The region became part of Ukraine in 1954 when it was transferred to Ukraine as a gift for their past sufferings (mainly the results of collectivisation and the war), but it was a nominal transfer as they were all one country. Now the region is about 60% ethnic Russian, 24% Ukranian and 12% Tatar. When the Soviet Union was dissolved it remained part of Ukraine as a autonomous republic, however the naval base was leased to the Russians.

Everything up until now has been kind of fine, but things are changing. Russia is no longer weak like they were in the 90's and Putin is determened to try and retain and increase Russian influence in the world. Why? You can argue that they are entitled to as other superpowers do, you can also argue that they are securing their long term economic and defensive interests. The shadow of WW2 and how close their country came to being destroyed is strong here. If you look at it from Putin's perspective, now is the perfect time to act. America's credibility is at an all time low and the majoirty of American's are fed of with politicians and foreign wars. The West were unable to show any united stance against Syria and looked weak, while Putin increased his reputation as a statesman. However, its obvious things wont be so rosey for him forever. The shale gas revolution is bound to change things; Russia's economy is so resource dependent and the strength of the EU and other powers are only going to get stronger. He was on the verge of losing his buffer to the West, and a country he genuinely believe should be in union with Russia. Putin has no desire for a new communist empire, but its obvious he feels that the collapse of the old Soviet political alliance was a geopolitical disaster.

Putin tried to use Russia's economic clout to bring the Ukranians back, something their president was more than happy to do given his Eastern Ukranian background and economic problems. However, he had won the election on a knife edge and his promise to join the EU while retaining friendship with Russia was one of his main pledges which had won him the elction. This led to all the protests, which would eventually force him out of office with the help of Western politicians. This infuriated Putin, he doesn't taking losing lightly. It forced him into making this move. From his perspective a worse case scenerio would be Russia securing Crimea, whether its through annexation of the country declaring independence and calling on Russia for protection (because his only Black Sea base is there). It is clear that he tried the old tried and tested method of provoking the Ukranians into conflict, but unlike the Georgians, they Ukranian army has not fired a shot. Russia has control of Crimea, but at the moment haven't moved into the Eastern provinces. I believe this is because the West is putting so much pressure on Russia at the moment. Despite what people say, the threat of economic sanctions will have a considerable effect on Russia in the short-medium term, but only if Europe is involved and Europe is still prepared to negoiate given the current situation. I think this is the right balance for the moment. The West has to keep negotiating while letting the Russians know that there are consequences that they are prepared to enact (even if its self-harming).

The US cannot do anything militarily, but they cannot afford to ignore the situation. We've seen from history that appeasement fails and the failure to check aggresive powers leaders to that power making more moves. They do need to be prepared to negotiate though, because people on all sides are no angels and their are a lot of legitimate concerns on both sides. However, I can strongly confirm that there is a big information and propoganda war going on, to the point where I'm no longer speaking to my best friend. She came to me last week asking about what's going on and I pretty much explained the broad arguments on both sides. However, after watching and reading the government controlled media she dediced that I was a liar and dangerous and the truth was that hordes of Ukranian Nazis were commiting genocide and speaking Russian could lead to the death sentence. The fact is that Russians are not bad people, they genuinely believe that their presence in Crimea is a humanitarian mission, but most Russians are so patriotic they are prepared to believe their media, because their country can do no wrong. As a result they really cannot understand the world's reaction, especially the US's after its past wars. Its very unfortunate and what's dangerous is that their government seems to believe in it too.

Good post Flamey. Just want to ask, and you can correct me if you think I'm wrong, but there was a big nationalist/fascist presence in the protests and some of them were appointed to the new government, right? One of the first things they did was try to remove Russian as an official language, which, when Russian is your native language, is a bad start.
http://www.channel4.com/...-new-government-far-right

So now you have this new (unelected) government in Ukraine that really is not trusted by major parts of their own nation, like in Crimea and eastern Ukraine. Now parts of Ukraine are quite unhappy, and Crimeans will vote to leave.

Putin is a much better leader then Obama, look at what happened in syria!

not saying who is wrong, or right, but the U.S. lacks..

i sure hope that's sarcasm :P

yes that was me in the boss post, lol

i just took the non-violent option, and quit..

*thumbs up*
glad to hear it :)

The more potent leader is definitely Putin. Obama is weak. His credibility is all shot to hell by all the lies that he and his administration have told that they have been called on publicly.

As far as Crimea, it seems to me that it is a move in defense of the Russian National Security if nothing else. When it was all the Soviet Union, Sevastopol had the largest warm water Naval Base that the Soviet's had, and it is still operated by Russian, not Ukraine.

I don't blame Putin for doing what he must to secure his Nation. Is he authoritarian, more than likely, is he dangerous, possibly if Obama does something stupid. I think that Putin is smarter than Obama by a large measure, and I also suspect that he knows that he is.

Obama is powerless in this situation since he has already pissed off any allies who would have been in a position to assist via his incessant spying and his scaredy cat behavior during the whole time he's been in office.

IMHO, it was a smart move by Russia to retake the Crimea just for the purpose of securing their largest warm water Naval Base which is of inestimable value to the Russian National Security.

How is this different than Bush I, Bush II and Reagan?

And you do realize that Obama basically continued the policies of previous administrations re:spying, wars, etc.

America has lost credibility; not Obama specifically. That's a distinction few on the right can seem to make. The administrations can shuffle around willy nilly at this point. It no longer matters :p

What does it mean to be a "hard core american"

It is true that the two far right parties did very well in the last Ukranian elections and a lot of them are anti-Russian. Three of the cabinet ministers in this caretaker government descend from that party and far right groups were present in the protests which attracted people from all walks of life. The new government did their best to remove a lot of legislation that the last regime implimented, including the revokation of Russian as an official language. It is likely true that there were groups of bandits desecrating Russian memorials too. However, nothing to the extent reported in the Russian media, which has played a big part in these events. I wouldn't say the Russians in Crimea are exactly liberal peace-loving people though. I saw a wonderful quote from one of them explaining that the Ukranian Nazi's were right about the white-supremacy thing, but wrong about everything else!

For those living in Russia, it's over-reported I am sure to justify Russian policy. In the US I think it's quite under-reported. In any case, probably residents of eastern and southern Ukraine have reason to be unhappy with this new government installed via the protesters in Kiev. Crimea is already attempting to leave Ukraine, and I think they might, so now I wonder about eastern Ukraine. Without Crimea, they'll lose a lot of influence in elections and become greater minorities.

Lots of good bugged phone calls lately haha
http://www.channel4.com/...hoot-maidan-bugged-leaked
http://www.theguardian.com/...ia-nuland-eu-unacceptable

Crimea has always been kind of autonomous with its own identity and effectively its under Russia's control now. It's diffrent in the East though, there is no demarcation of East and West and the peoples have lived with each other for a long time. I feel there is a more of a united stance here, despite some pro-Russian groups and people being bussed over the border to protest.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...s-peoples-government.html

what causes extreme reaction in perception of enemies are things such as crimes committed by one country against another

eg in Ukraine's case, the created famine of the 1930s - essentially brought on by deliberate imposition of Soviet Russian policies to break Ukrainian nationalism ... google Holodmor (starvation, to death) for details ... up to 8 million died in Ukraine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNQmmERdvWM

you could well be mistaken for thinking that Ukraine had a reason to fear Russia

as Flamey said, a LOT of Ukrainians also fought on the Nazi side during WW2, bearing in mind 8 million Russian deaths alone during hostilities ...

in 1945, we great people in the UK deported anywhere around 50,000 Cossacks and Ukrainians back to the Soviet Union, where they were deported to gulag camps or executed - a great number died

whilst ukrainians and russians might be close biologically, linguistically, interbred and mixed ... there are decades of extreme crap that come into play on all sides

compare that with say ~1million dead in the American Civil war, which is felt strongly in parts of the US 150 years later

my point is, whilst its easy to point fingers both ways to identify the bad guy - Russia and Ukraine have reason to deeply fear and dislike one another - 70 years on from the last war

the holodomor, according to blid, wasn't man made- and if it was, then the men who made it, they weren't really bad, they were just trying to help other people first, is all.

it was caused by massive mismanagement from the civil war and soviet redistribution of assets etc, as well as a small climatic difference plus considerable political steering to avoid helping those that needed it ... and other reasons

i'm on team Obama

#winning

#hatersgonhate

#ruskiesgoninvadeandthenlosepoliticallymilitarilyeconomically

#theamountofQQtherewillbeonATin2016whentheGOPlosesagainwillbeEPIC

#realtalk
#runtelldat

so, in simpler terms, they chose to starve people to death, and then those people starved to death?

certain classes were nominated by the soviet leadership to be removed - they were heavily based in Ukraine and yeah ... they starved to death
in europe in the 20th century
and then forgotten by the world

I understand the sentiments, Pang, and even can recognize the similarities, yet the liberal mind cannot conceive of any criticism of the Obama administration separately from dumping on the Bush administration. This is simply put, A mental disorder of the first magnitude.

First, At no time in any of my posts have I glorified any of the Bush administrations. I think W oughta stand trial for the brazen theft of taxpayers money in the greatest heist in history, but that is just my personal opinion, just like I think Obama should stand trial for all the lies and deceit that has been condoned under his administration, again, my personal opinion.

As far as the administrations recently being indistinguishable from each other, I'm in full agreement with you there. The two party system that we have here in the U.S. is simply two sides of the same coin, or rather, two piles of the same fluff, more accurately.

Neither party represents the people anymore. They simply represent what they can get for themselves. As long as we have a professional politician class, this will continue to be so. Let a third party candidate show any signs of life and ability to be elected, and watch how fast both parties team up to find some "legal" justification to keep said candidate OFF THE BALLOT! Suddenly they are best friends.

The People of the U.S. are getting screwed no matter which party is in the majority, or in the administration. And since the government of the U.S. wields such large power and influence, conversely, the people of the entire world are going to suffer along with us.

Except for China, which seems to have the interests of it's own nation as a priority.

Gotta admit, the Chinese communists are way more honest than any democrat or republican here in the United States.

Sorry to admit that out loud, but that's the way it is.

when i talked about nazis within the ukrainian protests, braden suddenly said the bolsheviks killed more people than nazis, and identified modern russia as bolshevik for some reason. he then mentioned the holodomor.

not going into the causes in detail here but natural disasters and resistance to and failures of collectivization were among them. the point i was trying to make to braden though was that the famine was the result of real food shortages. there was not enough food for everyone. that's not the same thing as people starving when there is enough food for everyone, that's not the same thing as murder or the holocaust. and yes, food that was collected was directed toward to certain sectors but the famine extended beyond the borders of ukraine into the USSR as well.

when people get up in arms about this one year of disastrous famine in the USSR, i sometimes wonder, do they realize that a holodomor is happening every single year in the modern, capitalist world? and that there IS enough food produced to feed everyone?

Today:


a lot of starvation today is caused directly by US/IMF policy toward indebted exploited states.





etc

i never once argued logic was my strong point, blid :P

vast swaths of farmland in cash-strapped nations is being sold off to foreign governments so africa, ukraine, etc are giving up their food security in exchange for much needed $ as well "=[

http://www.channel4.com/...urity-investment-overseas
http://www.theguardian.com/...9/jul/03/africa-land-grab

Flamey Your a lot smarter than you look.

+1 martian.

Military intervention is not an option here. We cannot permanently occupy Crimea to help the Ukraine. Not possible next to Russia's most important Naval facility (not to mention the U.S. has no appetite for it). All that leaves are economic sanctions, which is probably what will happen. Too bad for Ukraine. :/

We could offer economic assistance to the Ukraine, if we want to keep it in the Western Sphere at all, but they are $38B in debt, largely to Russia. So even if we give them $$, it goes to Russia.

If we just say fluff it and abandon them, they will be forced to go to the Russian Sphere to survive.

There are not a lot of good options here.

Cuba?

great post pang.

That's right. Because she was able to see what Russia was doing from her bedroom window.

http://www.reuters.com/...tsk-idUSBREA250CW20140306

That isn't true and shows you aren't spending much time listening to debates from within the liberal side of the U.S. Lots of libs are very unhappy with Obama. I know some who voted for him in the first election and not in the second. While I voted for him in both, I could have easily voted for someone else had a better candidate shown up. I didn't consider his opposition a better alternative on either occasion. I was heavily for Powell, but he didn't run. :/



I disagree with this sentiment. It just so happens that right now the interests of the elite in China align with the interests of their nation's economic growth. But to suggest that Chinese national party leadership (or the regional and local governments) are prioritizing the People's interests first is buying into their bullfluff.

lol, central, south and east ukraine always was a part of Russia amd west ukraine - part of poland and then austria. There never was such country as Ukraine till 1991.

THE USA IS LITERALLY HITLER