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Nekked Game profile

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Aug 28th 2013, 18:47:02

Is the pending attacks on them legal?

If Iraq was illegal for G.W.Bush. How is it legal for B.H.Obama?

Is the sweden and norway looking to take back their peace prize?

Discuss

tulosba Game profile

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Aug 28th 2013, 18:55:48

erh, I think Iraq was legal for Bush - he just used the wrong reasons. Peace treaty after the Kuwait war set terms and conditions, Hussein didnt follow terms and conditions - treaty void, hence state of war is the legal state of matters

hence how could it be illegal?

But hippies will argue otherwise.

Donät think there's anyway Syria will be legal - maybe the UN charter about genocide?
But legal schmegal! The NSA is spying you and its totally illegal and nothing is done about it.

blid

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Aug 28th 2013, 19:01:35

Iraq was legal according to US law, it was illegal under international law according to Kofi Annan.

The bombing campaign against Libya was illegal according to US law. Obama continued it longer than was legally allowed without Congressional authorization.

The looming attacks against Syria will definitely be approved by the US if needed because Republicans and Democrats are gonna get behind it even though I don't agree with it.

And obviously Obama never deserved a peace prize, hahaha.

Edited By: blid on Aug 28th 2013, 19:27:29
See Original Post
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

blid

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Aug 28th 2013, 19:03:52

Vatican blasts West for planning war against Syria despite UN probe

August 27, 2013 07:17 PM

VATICAN CITY: The Vatican's official daily on Tuesday criticised global powers for preparing possible military action against Syria despite an ongoing U.N. investigation into an alleged chemical weapons attack near Damascus.

"The tones are becoming ever more drastic and the action being taken by the United Nations appears subjected to a sort of crossfire," the newspaper said.

"Various international actors appear no longer to consider the investigation a determining factor," it said, adding that "what commitment there was" to a negotiated settlement "appears to be dying out".

The Vatican's permanent observer at the United Nations in Geneva, Monsignor Silvano Tomasi, last week cast doubt on the Syrian regime's responsibility for the apparent chemical attack in the suburbs of Damascus.

The Vatican is against any armed intervention, pointing to the havoc caused by the U.S.-led war to topple Saddam Hussein in Iraq in 2003.

(And they could just as easily point to the disaster area that Libya is now thanks to imperialist intervention.)
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

martian Game profile

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Aug 28th 2013, 19:53:55

Blid: you are technically incorrect. There is really no such thing as "UN law". Just agreements signed by the membership. One agreement is to follow agreements passed through the UN.
If the US did contravene some form of UN agreement then it didn't break a "law" in the criminal sense but rather didnt' carry out it's part of a contract(s). Technically there are consequences for breaking the agreements just like there would be for any other contract. The UN's roll is to provide a discussion form for member nations to reach agreements on things (such as trade). It is *not* a governing body and hence there is no such thing as UN "Law". A country is free to opt out of the UN at any time and hence would no longer be bound by any of the agreements that come as being part of the UN.

As far as Syria goes, all member nations of the UN agreed not to use Chemical weapons (as an extension of some post WW1 treaty). If Syria did in fact use chemical weapons then it is in violation of the UN and in theory should face consequences for doing so.

As an aside, the UN technically has no juristiction on the internal affairs of a country (re a civil war) but only disputes between nations. As to which the current situation in Syria actually is is subject to some debate.
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martian Game profile

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Aug 28th 2013, 19:55:35

As far as US law goes, it is my understanding that any war the US engages in is "legal" provided that it is approved by congress. Iraq could be seens as "illegal" in the sense that some would argue that Congress was mislead. Syria would be "legal" if Congress approves it and was not deliberately mislead.
Interfering in other countries without declaring war is a grey area...
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blid

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Aug 28th 2013, 20:02:24

Well, I'm not technically incorrect because I said it was illegal according to Kofi Annan. Those are indeed his words:
http://en.wikipedia.org/.../Legality_of_the_Iraq_War
The then United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan said in September 2004 that: "From our point of view and the UN Charter point of view, it [the war] was illegal."

If Nekked is curious he can read that article about the legality of the Iraq war but personally I think it's all irrelevant because it was clearly immoral/wrong regardless of legality.

Libya war was illegal under US law, as shown in the quote below:
When President Obama ordered the U.S. military to wage war in Libya without Congressional approval (even though, to use his words, it did “not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation”), the administration and its defenders claimed he had legal authority to do so for two reasons: (1) the War Powers Resolution of 1973 (WPR) authorizes the President to wage war for 60 days without Congress, and (2) the “time-limited, well defined and discrete” nature of the mission meant that it was not really a “war” under the Constitution (Deputy NSA Adviser Ben Rhodes and the Obama OLC). Those claims were specious from the start, but are unquestionably inapplicable now.

From the start, the WPR provided no such authority. Section 1541(c) explicitly states that the war-making rights conferred by the statute apply only to “a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces.” That’s why Yale Law Professor Bruce Ackerman — in an article in Foreign Policy entitled “Obama’s Unconstitutional War” – wrote when the war started that the “The War Powers Resolution doesn’t authorize a single day of Libyan bombing” and that “in taking the country into a war with Libya, Barack Obama’s administration is breaking new ground in its construction of an imperial presidency.”
...
But even for those who chose to cling to the fiction that the presidential war in Libya was authorized by the WPR, that fiction is now coming to a crashing end. Friday will mark the 60th day of the war without Congress, and there are no plans for authorization to be provided. By all appearances, the White House isn’t even bothering to pretend to seek one. A handful of GOP Senators — ones who of course showed no interest whatsoever during the Bush years in demanding presidential adherence to the law — are now demanding a vote on Libya, but it’s highly likely that the Democrats who control the Senate won’t allow one. Instead, the law will simply be ignored by the President who declared, when bashing George Bush on the campaign trail to throngs of cheering progressives: “No more ignoring the law when it’s inconvenient. That is not who we are.”

http://www.salon.com/2011/05/19/libya_7/
Obama goes further than those who preceded him, from the same article:
Make no mistake: Obama is breaking new ground, moving decisively beyond his predecessors. George W. Bush gained congressional approval for his wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Bill Clinton acted unilaterally when he committed American forces to NATO’s bombing campaign in Kosovo, but he persuaded Congress to approve special funding for his initiative within 60 days. And the entire operation ended on its 78th day.

In contrast, Congress has not granted special funds for Libya since the bombing began, and the campaign is likely to continue beyond the 30-day limit set for termination of all operations.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

Junky Game profile

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Aug 28th 2013, 22:04:50

I think it's funny that even when a country creates an act of war by attacking the US, and or US Territories, he only has 60 days to act without congress... even though the US would be in a state of war reguardless of what Congress may think.
I Maybe Crazy... But atleast I'm crazy.

blid

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Aug 28th 2013, 22:18:49

Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

devilpup Game profile

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Aug 28th 2013, 23:29:10

Syria broke one of the Geneva Conventions laws of war by using chemical weapons. Obama said around a year ago the use of chemical weapons would "cross a red line" and assumingly provoke a US response. I highly doubt any ground troops are used. Any attack will be from the air.
"If I'm standing on it, it's America"-Action Figure Therapy

devilpup Game profile

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Aug 28th 2013, 23:35:16

Nevertheless to all my Marine Corps friends on MEUs and in FAST teams in the area be at the ready and God speed if orders come.
"If I'm standing on it, it's America"-Action Figure Therapy

blid

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Aug 28th 2013, 23:51:47

Originally posted by devilpup:
Syria broke one of the Geneva Conventions laws of war by using chemical weapons. Obama said around a year ago the use of chemical weapons would "cross a red line" and assumingly provoke a US response. I highly doubt any ground troops are used. Any attack will be from the air.
How do you know it was the regime that used the weapons? How do you know, if it was, that it was according to the regime's orders? I'll go a step further though and say who cares if they did? What are we going to do about it? Bomb some of their locations and help the rebels? The rebels that themselves already have been found by the UN to have used chemical weapons?

"U.N. human rights investigators have gathered testimony from casualties of Syria’s civil war and medical staff indicating that rebel forces have used the nerve agent sarin, one of the lead investigators said on Sunday. The United Nations independent commission of inquiry on Syria has not yet seen evidence of government forces having used chemical weapons, which are banned under international law, said commission member Carla Del Ponte."
http://www.reuters.com/...-un-idUSBRE94409Z20130505
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

BladeEWG Game profile

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Aug 28th 2013, 23:55:21

Originally posted by devilpup:
Syria broke one of the Geneva Conventions laws of war by using chemical weapons. Obama said around a year ago the use of chemical weapons would "cross a red line" and assumingly provoke a US response. I highly doubt any ground troops are used. Any attack will be from the air.


that's pretty much it in a nutshell tho Russia and China think Syria is ok in the use of chems...go figure.
This should have been handled last year, that's what ticks me off. How many could have been saved if we just did the right thing?
I'm tired of politicians waiting for a public groundswell of support before doing whats right.
chicken fluffs,

devilpup Game profile

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Aug 28th 2013, 23:59:07

I don't know as I'm not the president or in the intelligence community, but according to reports coming from the president's administration they seem pretty sure that it was Assad's regime. As a side note I am a republican and am strongly conservative on most issues. As such I do not usually like Obama so I'm not just mindlessly assuming that he is correct. An international team is on the ground in Syria. I imagine their report is more reliable than my opinion or yours
"If I'm standing on it, it's America"-Action Figure Therapy

blid

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Aug 29th 2013, 0:12:34

Yeah, the international team on the ground is the same group that found evidence the rebels used sarin gas already as well. They haven't yet issued a finding on whether the state was responsible for the recent chemical attack.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

devilpup Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 0:29:16

Whoever used/uses chemical weapons fully deserves whatever UN strike that comes their way. And an earlier post is correct the use of chems last year should have prompted the same response as the current one.
"If I'm standing on it, it's America"-Action Figure Therapy

mrford Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 0:32:38

am i the only one who thinks that the rebels are capable of gassing themselves in order to gain international support?

im not saying thats what happened, but it doesnt seem to be a far fetched scenario. i watch movies and fluff.
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blid

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Aug 29th 2013, 1:05:01

Originally posted by devilpup:
Whoever used/uses chemical weapons fully deserves whatever UN strike that comes their way. And an earlier post is correct the use of chems last year should have prompted the same response as the current one.
And if both sides did? We just start bombing all of Syria and let chaos reign?
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

iScode Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 1:05:29

who gives a fluff, nuke the fluffs!


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Twain Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 1:07:47

It's a no-win situation.

If we don't intercede, we are basically saying we won't interfere in a country where someone uses chemical weapons to kill their own citizens.

If we do intercede, we potentially put a completely different group of people into power that probably aren't going to be good strategic allies and that are more likely to be connected to or at least tolerant of extremist Muslim attitudes.

And of course, if we actually put troops on the ground, we're also risking American lives in a battle where we don't really want either side in power. And it's hard to put troops on the ground for anything less than a regime change.

I had this conversation with a friend on facebook earlier today, and I think the best option is to do air strikes to basically limit his capabilities without actually committing troops.

But it's no-win, and people are probably going to look back at whatever decision is made ultimately as a bad one because of that.

blid

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Aug 29th 2013, 1:09:43

The obvious solution is not to get involved in Syria's civil war imo.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

iScode Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 1:10:48

Originally posted by blid:
The obvious solution is not to get involved in Syria's civil war imo.



Wrong!


Nostradamus predicted WW3 would start in the middle east and well we need ww3 so everyone dies. I say nuke the fluffs!
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Pain Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 1:12:24

america: world police

let them kill each other. who cares. let another country spend money and resources helping a rebel group.
Your mother is a nice woman

blid

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Aug 29th 2013, 1:19:11

Originally posted by Pain:
america: world police

let them kill each other. who cares. let another country spend money and resources helping a rebel group.
If we stop actively arming the rebels and it might wrap up quickly with a minimum of violence. But we'd never do that! ha
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

devilpup Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 1:37:29

Originally posted by Pain:
america: world police

let them kill each other. who cares. let another country spend money and resources helping a rebel group.


America is not the only country weighing options for a strike. The French, Brits, and also Israel (these are only the countries I've read about I'm sure there's more)
"If I'm standing on it, it's America"-Action Figure Therapy

devilpup Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 1:40:15

Sorry hit submit too soon. All UN countries are supposed to follow/enforce the Geneva convention . I agree getting involved isn't a winning solution, but allowing it to happen opens the door for other regimes/rebels/etc to follow suit without fear of international repercussions.
"If I'm standing on it, it's America"-Action Figure Therapy

Atryn Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 2:04:19

Originally posted by blid:
The Vatican is against any armed intervention, pointing to the havoc caused by the U.S.-led war to topple Saddam Hussein in Iraq in 2003.

(And they could just as easily point to the disaster area that Libya is now thanks to imperialist intervention.)


Or the crusades...

blid

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Aug 29th 2013, 2:07:26

That's not exactly recent history there.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

Nekked Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 2:10:30

If it was ok for Saddam to kill his own ppl, according to Obama as senator. Now it's not ok for another dictator or rebel to kill their own ppl. Its up the UN to put up any response to what is going on in Syria, not NATO!




Atryn Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 2:13:39


Great article:

http://www.theonion.com/...ats-it-going-to-be,33662/

There is so much in common with Earth politics. ;)

Damned if you do, damned if you don't and negative perceptions no matter what.

blid

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Aug 29th 2013, 2:13:41

Uh, what did Obama say as a Senator about Saddam exactly? That doesn't sound quite right...

Of course, the US did support Iraq while they were using chemical weapons, that much is known.

n 1988, during the waning days of Iraq's war with Iran, the United States learned through satellite imagery that Iran was about to gain a major strategic advantage by exploiting a hole in Iraqi defenses. U.S. intelligence officials conveyed the location of the Iranian troops to Iraq, fully aware that Hussein's military would attack with chemical weapons, including sarin, a lethal nerve agent.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/..._saddam_as_he_gassed_iran
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

archaic Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 2:44:20

Going back to the banana wars of the 1920s, the propping up right leaning Latin American war criminals (Pinochet, Noriega, and all of the Operation Condor cronies) - to arming Sadam against Iran and Osama against Russia - to the Viet Nam and the Korean wars - the US has a stellar record of failure when we try to interfere in other countries internal affairs. This will end badly, and the rebels that we suddenly give so much of a fluff about will be labeled as 'insurgents' once they start killing Americans with their new found liberty and Stinger missiles.

What the US needs to do is set aside our world-cop ego and adopt a policy of economic globalism and political isolationism. I'm tired of leaving dead American boys in god forsaken hell holes where both sides hate us.
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mrford Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 2:47:58

what happened the last 2 times the US adopted a mentality of political isolationism? just curious
Swagger of a Chupacabra

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archaic Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 2:56:48

um, we won

Lets face it Ford, you stand to profit mightily from US involvement in Syria. Collateral damage has nothing on a solid quarterly earnings statement.

"A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction...

We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist. . .

Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together."

Dwight Eisenhower
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Pang Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 3:03:07

Zombie Eisenhower 2016!!
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mrford Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 3:15:13

we won? no, world war 1 and world war 2 happened the last time the US adopted a large isolationist stance. id rather fight 20 small conflicts, then have a world war pop off. any day
Swagger of a Chupacabra

[21:37:01] <&KILLERfluffY> when I was doing FA stuff for sof the person who gave me the longest angry rant was Mr Ford

mrford Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 3:19:04

and you are acting like im the CEO of LM. dude, im about as entry level as it gets. im not siting here hoping for a war so i can make money....
Swagger of a Chupacabra

[21:37:01] <&KILLERfluffY> when I was doing FA stuff for sof the person who gave me the longest angry rant was Mr Ford

devilpup Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 3:34:40

Lol Lockheed Martin? If so and you worked in Kings Bay, GA between 07-09 its likely we've met. And by met I mean I was behind a machine gun watching you do whatever it is y'all do that takes so freaking long. It's like it was rocket science or something.
"If I'm standing on it, it's America"-Action Figure Therapy

mrford Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 3:41:31

lol no, im in south FL. although i do travel sometimes for demos, but i have only worked here for a little over a year.
Swagger of a Chupacabra

[21:37:01] <&KILLERfluffY> when I was doing FA stuff for sof the person who gave me the longest angry rant was Mr Ford

Rufus Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 11:28:04

Originally posted by mrford:
am i the only one who thinks that the rebels are capable of gassing themselves in order to gain international support?

im not saying thats what happened, but it doesnt seem to be a far fetched scenario. i watch movies and fluff.
No, you're not, actually I believe that this is true.

As for breaking the Geneva protocol, Syria didn't break any (nor the rebels, for that matter) since the protocols do not forbid the use of chemical weapons in a civil conflict. Just being pedantic here.
I am John Galt.

Darakna Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 12:07:19

Either way could be a potential deployment to Syria maybe.... One of my seccos is a lil too excited for that potential!

NukEvil Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 12:11:55

Legal?

Everything is legal as long as you have the most guns and missiles at your disposal.
I am a troll. Everything I say must be assumed to be said solely to provoke an exaggerated reaction to the current topic. I fully intend to bring absolutely no substance to any discussion, ongoing or otherwise. Conversing with me is pointless.

Atryn Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 12:20:48

Originally posted by Darakna:
Either way could be a potential deployment to Syria maybe.... One of my seccos is a lil too excited for that potential!


Anyone in the military who is "excited" at the prospect of entering a conflict and "getting to kill people" should be barred from service.

Now, if they are "excited" because they believe we are overdue in protecting innocent people from harm, I might disagree with them but wouldn't disqualify them from service.

One of my main biases against people in the military is based on the few I have met who actually enjoyed killing people and went into the military so they could have the opportunity to do it legally.

I met one such sicko in the Marines who was particularly enamored with the Vietnam stories of making necklaces from the ears of his victims. He thought that would be awesome and couldn't wait to be deployed. I keep hoping our psych exams screen these people out now... but then we end up with the random village massacre in Afghanistan, so who knows.

Rufus Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 13:07:10

UN accuses Syrian rebels of chemical weapons use
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...chemical-weapons-use.html
I am John Galt.

archaic Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 13:46:53

fluff 'em, not a single thing in Syria worth a thing to the US. All we are doing is trading in an oppressive dictator for a bunch of fundamentalist warlords.
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Rufus Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 13:59:29

You're right about "trading in an oppressive dictator for a bunch of fundamentalist warlords", however wrong about "not a single thing in Syria worth a thing to the US"...
I am John Galt.

blid

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Aug 29th 2013, 14:10:47

Originally posted by Atryn:
Originally posted by Darakna:
Either way could be a potential deployment to Syria maybe.... One of my seccos is a lil too excited for that potential!


Anyone in the military who is "excited" at the prospect of entering a conflict and "getting to kill people" should be barred from service.

Now, if they are "excited" because they believe we are overdue in protecting innocent people from harm, I might disagree with them but wouldn't disqualify them from service.

One of my main biases against people in the military is based on the few I have met who actually enjoyed killing people and went into the military so they could have the opportunity to do it legally.

I met one such sicko in the Marines who was particularly enamored with the Vietnam stories of making necklaces from the ears of his victims. He thought that would be awesome and couldn't wait to be deployed. I keep hoping our psych exams screen these people out now... but then we end up with the random village massacre in Afghanistan, so who knows.
Current and future young people grow up playing war-based video games like CoD. The generation born in the 80s grew up with GI Joe. They program patriotic bloodlust into people pretty early.
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

blid

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Aug 29th 2013, 14:24:22


Edited By: blid on Aug 29th 2013, 14:36:26
See Original Post
Originally posted by Mr. Titanium:
Watch your mouth boy, I have never been accused of cheating on any server nor deleted before you just did right there.

martian Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 14:24:54

welcome to US media: violence is ok but sex and nudity is not...
:P

Regarding the UN saying that the US actions violated the UN charter and were therefore illegal: that's under the assumption that US law binds the US to follow the UN charter... technically, the UN isn't a government and hence can not make "laws", although I doubt one could win in a US court with that argument:P
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SakitSaPuwit Game profile

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Aug 29th 2013, 14:25:15

been out of the U.S. for 2 years, so help me a little since this gets little news coverage here, Obama wants to attack somebody because they might have used chem weapons (WMD) but the people they used them on want to be Al-Qaeda? but neither group actually attacked America?

I'm so confused
but what do i know?
I only play this game for fun!