i fail to see your point

Yes Phil Jackson is probably the best player/coach of all time, but I can guarantee that Jackson was just sitting there and getting paid while Jordan the Floor General of the Bulls commanded everything. I haven't ever seen LeBron try to do that in any fashion to the caliber that Jordan showed. Jordan's stats > LeBron's stats. If you try to compare fool's gold to the real deal, you will fall short on your dream.

Last Note: Bulls team in the mid 90s had some great contenders like the Jazz (Malon and Stockton), Rockets (remember, they won when the Bulls didn't) and the Trailblazers were good but could never get past the Lakers. Saying there weren't any good teams? You are a flufftard.

Jordan > Kobe > Lebron

6rings > 5 rings > 1 and 1/2 ring(lockout)

The Jazz? The team that mastered the art of choking in the playoffs who's third best player was....Jeff Hornacek and you consider that a top team? Heck in 98 the pacers actually have a team with decent depth...mind you their best player was Reggie Miller so in the all time great team discussion they aren't there.

But now directly to the 96 team which is so often called the greatest ever, and with good reason...72 games is a huge deal.

They beat Miami in the first round. A decent team that was never that good with two guys who were never as good as they should have been in Hardaway and Mourning. Third best player was either Rex Champman or Kurt Thomas. Followed by the Knicks who for some reason Ewing never got any credit for he played his whole career and his best teammate for most of his career was John Starks. 3rd best player Charles Oakley. They then beat an Orlando Magic team that actually beat the bulls the year prior with Jordan. On paper they look good, Penny Hardaway who is hands down the most over hyped guy to ever play and a very young Shaq coming off being embarrassed by the dream in the finals the year prior. 3rd best player Dennis Scott. Add in a shallow bench. Then the finals where they played the sonics and a young Payton and a soon to be washed up Kemp. Kemp mind you struggled to even stay in games due to foul troubles. Third best player Delef Schrempf.

Now the first two rounds you might have a case that those were quality teams for the first two rounds. However this years pacers and this years spurs are far better than the sonics or magic were in 96. Not even close.

As for the rockets they were a one man team for their first title. Unless Sam Cassel and Robert Horry are your idea of all-star help for dream. The next year the addition of Drexler certainly made them look better, but they made 2 finals and that was it. The blazers were solid before jordan left the game, not so much after he came back. The era was a bunch of teams with 2 star players (hopefully) where as during strong periods in the league there were 3 legit stars on teams that were contending.

As for stats between Jordan and James as much as I hate to give James credit, the stats completely disagree with what you're saying.

Jordan at the same age had just lead the league in PER 6 straight years and winshare 6 straight years. James 6 straight PER titles and 5 winshare titles. Gotta love Chris Paul getting in there and without anyone giving credit to him having the best single season as a point guard ever and then getting robbed of the mvp! Winshare per 48 both players 5 straight wins. Now keep in mind MJ would only lead the league in PER once more in his career (never did once he came back from baseball) and 3 more winshare titles.

Best single season PER for both players was 31.7. Jordan gets the nod on peaks for winshare but a lot of that has to do with how teams rest players now. Now winshare per 48 best season for Jordan .321 best for James .322 advantage James.

Number of titles at the same age. MJ 2 James 2. Number of trips to the finals MJ 2 James 4. Advantage James.

Lebron may not be fun to watch play. He might have the worst tatoos of all time (for a player that matters). His interviews might cause more eye rolling than men's excuses for strip club viewing to their wives. All that said the stats between him and Jordan are crazy similar and we are watching by any reasonable metric one of the 3 best players of all time (MJ, Kareem, Lebron). And yes it truly hurts to admit James is that good, but when you look at his stats on basketball reference they are just eye dropping.

That's HOME attendance where having a bigger arena matters. I'm not sure of the numbers, but I'd guess MJ played nearly every game on the ROAD to a sold out arena.

Wade was only better than Pippen for a short time. Over their entire careers, I'll take Pippen over Wade every day of the week.

Really? I mean I love Pippen to death and think he was not just a super star at his prime but his ability to remain a meaningful role player after surgeries that took his elite level athletic ability away were true testaments to his knowledge of the game. And while I'd take Pippen from the 96 team because of defense over Wade from this year, even I have to admit that's putting a LOT of my own bias in it.

95-96 Pippen had a PER of 21.3 to Wade this year putting up a 24. Now Pippen played more minutes and had a win share of 12.3 to Wade's 9.6. Pippen was also all nba first time and all defensive team first team (an award that is both meaningful and bs). So yeah Pippen was better than Wade imo if comparing this years heat to the best of the bulls.

But for their Careers? Wade's already been on 9 all star teams to Pippens 7. Wade's been on an all NBA team 8 times to Pippen's 7. An interesting stat to throw out there is MVP Award Share where they measure what percentage of the mvp voting you get and total it for one's career. Pippen is 42nd all time at .716, Wade 40th at .793. Best PER ranking Wade led the league once in PER, Pippen 4th. Pippen's best year in PER is below Wade's career average.

But Pippen was the better defender. I'll agree. But wade has been 3 time all nba second team defense. You can hardly say Pippen was so much better defensively that it makes up for the DECADE of stats we have before us. Pippen played more games than Wade by a long shot and saying Pippen's career was better due to success and just the length of it is fine, but Pippen was not better over a longer stretch of time than Wade. Wade is battling to be the second best shooting guard of all time. I'm not sure he'll be able to play at this level long enough to pass Kobe, but through 10 years he's better than anyone not named Jordan at the position, Kobe included.

sorry, wrong thread...

one gains a 'stake' in a thread when that person:

1. raises a theory:
"Jordan is the greatest, no question there, but if you dont think lebron is fun to watch you are just a hater, simple as that."

2. poises a question:
"what if the heat win 6 in a row?"


3. is both detailed and well considered in their responses to others on the thread (i.e. that person actually cares)
"wade was injured for the last half of the year and the entire playoffs. he had his knee drained a few times through the playoffs. the fact that he still did what he did as impressive

but sure, blame him for being hurt and not playing like he was 22"


4. continues to present information to help prove his arguments:
"people are forgetting about the coaches. jordan easily had the better coach, and clevland....well he was no good clearly . spolstra remains to be seen, hes still really young with 2 rings"



5. again responds to a mindless observation by Vic, with actual considered information:
"the charlotte hornets had the number one attendance record from 1991 to 1997. what is your point? ir wasnt until 1998, jordans last year with the bulls, that chicago finally edged them out."

6. was also a major contributor to the previous Jordan thread, which essentially carried over to this newer Jordan thread.



so fordy, in this case it isn't a bad thing you have a stake in this thread. i'm just saying, you are a major presence on this thread, i am not. your points have been well considered and contain a lot of valid information. mine have not.

you actually care about the argument. there's nothing wrong with that man. but yes you do have a 'stake' in this thread, in that sense :)

Ford likes to inject something contrary to the opinions and claim not to have any vested interest in the topic?

Tell me ford you just like seeing your post count go up or what?

im a bobcats fan.... i mean hornets fan, so im basically a NBA D-league fan. i have no real care about this topic. i just like to argue. i live in miami granted, but could give a fluff less about the heat. i just dont like haters, and lebron seems to have quite the few.

Hoop: im not a subscriber to the PER stat like many are. It basically rewards ball domination and volume shooting regardless of shooting efficiency.

IMO one of the great weaknesses in Lebron's game is that he HAS to have the ball and initiate the offense. He is very poor at moving without the ball and proper floor spacing when he doesn't have the ball which is something most other "great" players were masters at.

bonus

Orkin, I don't think PER is the ONLY thing that matters. Though it CLEARLY does not reward volume shooting over efficient shooting. A major factor in the formula is the TS%. Looks at guys like Rice and their PER never topping 20 PER but he had a year shooting 19.5 times per game. And he wasn't an awful shooter.

PER is the single best measure of a player in a single stat imo. with winshare being the second best (though clearly flawed as it boosts you for being in advantageous 5 man floor groupings).

And I mean if we're going to compare Lebron to Kobe and Jordan neither were without the ball that much. And at least with Jordan he was just that much better at scoring than everyone else. Kobe...not so much.

And then you've got centers who by default create spacing due to size and position so not fair to compare him to those guys.

So yes Magic and Bird were better at those things.