It's about time.

Now Liberals are having leadership races in Quebec, Ontario, and Canada. Anywhere else?

They need one in BC. But won't hold it till they get curbstomped by the NDP next year come voting time.

Though to be fair, the BC Liberals have no affiliation to the feds and are much more closely aligned with the fed conservatives.

do people on this board pay attention to Ontario politics?

do you think the mall collapse is a major reason for McGuinty's resignation?

Dalton McGuinty Resigns
Who the frack is that??

The mall in Elliot Lake? No.

The two power plants he cancelled to win an election that will end up costing the taxpayers hundreds of millions? Likely.

That being said, I do vote Liberal lol.

Is he hot?

It's almost a guarantee that he has resigned, in order to throw his hat into the Federal Liberal race.

I was at that Mall in Elliott Lake a few days after it collapsed....it was bad, but I don't see how that could possibly have any effect on his tenure as Premiere.

I very much doubt Mcguinty is going to run in the federal race.
Regarding Elliott Lake: if it really was a result of poor enforcement then the municipality is more to blame than the province.

More likely it's what is going on with the teachers in ontario than the power plants and i'm speculating the province will end up losing the court case.

This also means there is likely going to be another provincial election soon. Hudak should resign so the cons can field a leader that is somewhat more competitive :P

HA!
BILL

The stuff coming out about the power plants is probably the tipping point. We're starting to find out that it's costing a hell of a lot more than we first thought. That, and this whole fiasco with education.

Oh... Martian said the exact same thing... maybe I should read the thread before responding :P

I think it would be foolish for McGuinty to run for the federal leadership right now.

Maybe the next time around.

@hawkeyee, my wife is directly affected by this (she's an EA working with autistic kids at the moment, not a teacher) and depending on the outcome, she thinks it's actually better to work for child services or a group home than york region school board for similar pay but better benefits and an actual paid vacation:P

I should point out that a lot of this comes from the scandals surrounding P3's which have a horrible track record in general (407 ETR, Brampton hospital, power delivery, Viva, Orang, and more than likely what is going to happen with Metrolinks)

I hope ontario can get leadership that will make ontario a "have" province again. Quit stealin from my potash, grain, and oil. Talk about redistribution of wealth...

Some background for those of us Canadian politically illiterate Americans?

Yeah. I'm affected too. I'm a teacher. Sick kid shows up to school last week, now I'm home 4 straight days with pneumonia. Already used up 4 of my 10 sick days before Halloween.

@Dissidenticn: Actually Ontario simply gets back some of what it contributes. It is still a net contributor to equalization, only the equalization amount has been reduced as per formula.

Your potash,grain and oil combined don't even come close to the GDP produced by financial sector in Ontario alone much less any other industry.
Nice try though.

I'm glad you bring that up martian. What if we were to compare the GDP production per capita? Suddenly our paltry 1 million people are looking pretty good no?

I mean... Your 13 mil to our 1 mil?

Now a question... I don't know the answer. Who gives more to the equalization payments? Us or you?

Not true actually. Western Canadian production as a whole is extremely close to the production of Ontario and projected to pass it within 4 or 5 years. Considering the history of Canada and the centralization of political and economic power around Ontario I consider this an impressive and historic feat.

And Ontario gets back some of what it contributes, you're right. You fail to mention that Alberta, BC and Sask get NOTHING back.

Correct. GDP per capita in SK is 60k while ont per cap gdp is like 45k. Sk is a have province currently, while ontario is a recipient of equalization payments.

Just fact checking. So, thank the oil, potash, and grain ok?

wow... just wow.


"Ontario gets back some of what it contributes, Alberta, BC and Sask get NOTHING back" -- This is 100% untrue (and I should know, I work for the BC Ministry of Finance).

They all get money back in federal transfers (there are 2 major transfer programs that all of the provinces recieve) as well as direct federal program spending. Every single province gets these. The point of contention is that some provinces receive back more in programs and transfers than what they pay in federal taxes (example: quebec, Nova scotia, New Brunswick, PEI).
Guess what, as I just pointed out above, Ontario is not one of those provinces. In fact the gap between what Ontarian's pay in federal taxes vs. what they get back in transfer and program spending is by far the biggest. Last I checked the gap in what Ontarian's pay in federal tax vs what they get back in federal transfers and programs is more than BC, Alberta and Sask combined.

As for Fuji's comment... once again wow... Martian's claims had nothing to do with Ontario's grain industries (which are still significant, as you just pointed out they are still larger than Saskatchewan's output). His point is that Saskatchewan's entire economy is smaller than Ontario's financial sector, which is only 1 segment of Ontario's economy (although it is also the largest).

So you're going on record saying Alberta, BC and Sask all qualify for equalization payments? Listen, I'm by no means an expert on the topic (although I've read about it more then a few times) so I'm open to what you're saying. I understand that the government Alberta doesn't write a cheque to Quebec each year.

But when the fed is handing out dollars to Quebec, more is going to them then they put in. Where as places like BC, Alberta and Sask are getting less then what they put in. Notice I didn't say Ontario who gets slightly more then back then what their tax base puts in. So saying they get nothing back was the wrong term, obviously they see some of their money back from the government, but not on the basis of equalization.

(If any of that is wrong, just tell me, I like to know more about this.)

As for your second paragraph I have no idea what you're talking about or why you even mentioned my name.

We are, afterall, talking about equalization payments, which is the litmus for who is a "have" and who is a "have not" province. Currently, ontario is a have not province. Hopefully after you get a new leader that can change.

That is where you are wrong.

I'm telling you Ontario pays more then they get back.

BC, Alberta and Sask pay more than they get back as well, but if you add up the difference for all 3 of those provinces, it is still less than the figure for Ontario.

Where did I say that BC, Alberta and sask receive equalization payments? The Federal government gives out tens of billions of dollars every year through transfer payments. The equalization program only represents approximately $270 million of that total. It is nothing, it is a marginal program at best.


For example last year Alberta received the following in financial transfers from the federal government:

Canada Health Transfer: 2.1 billion
Canada Social Transfer: 1.2 billion

total transfers: 3.4 billion (doesn't add up due to rounding).

The transfer to all the provinces can be found here:
http://www.fin.gc.ca/access/fedprov-eng.asp


I don't know how to be any more clear about this: YOU ARE WRONG.

Every province recieves Federal tax dollars via Federal Health and social transfer programs. These transfers represent the vast majority of transfers to the provinces. The equalization program currently represents less than 2% of all federal transfers to the provinces.

Does Ontario recieve an equalization payment? Yes.
Does Ontario pay less in federal taxes then they receive back in Federal transfers and programs? NO

Do you follow now?

After we get a new leader?

Didn't I just say a couple posts ago that I work for the British Columbia Ministry of Finance? that is about as far away from Ontario as you can get within Canada.

So now you are trying to backtrack by arguing you are only talking about the equalization program? I'm sorry but that doesn't fly. As I said before that program represents less than 2% of transfers. To claim Ontario gets more back then what it pays in because it is receiving some equalization funding now is preposterous. The fact is that the Federal government still collects way more $ off Ontario citizens and business than they give back to them in transfers and program delivery.

I'm tired of western conservatives rambling about how Ontario doesn't pay its fair share. It is BS. Ontario pays more than anybody and complains about it the least (although they have started to complain about it some in recent years).

First of all, chill out. You don't know me, or my politics. Stop painting people with a brush and trying to pin thoughts and beliefs on them that they don't hold. I've admitted (very quickly) that I'm no expert and that I'm interested in learning from what you have to say and having a discussion.

My original post:

I feel like you've taken the "nothing" part totally out of context here. Obviously I've never thought that Alberta, BC and Sask get ZERO federal dollars. I feel like that's just common sense seeing how we where talking about something specific but they're my words so I'll take responsibility for not being clear enough.

And with the exception of me getting a little confused in my second post you've basically backed up my original statement. Yes Ontario get's some of their money back (in the form of equalization payments), Alberta, BC and Sask get none (in the form of equalization).

So what's the problem here?

By the way this is something that happens a lot around this country and is becoming a joke. The demonising of an entire political class and in some cases entire provinces based of a dated notion of what it is to be conservative. Conservatives my age could easily vote Liberal in an election, they're thoughtful people who read and are interested in learning. They're not die hard in their beliefs and they're not southern social conservatives from the United States. They care about the environment and are willing to give more to help others out.

It's the ignorance of people like you who don't share the same open mindedness when even talking to us that annoys me. Did you ever wonder why power went from the Liberals to the Cons? It's because the Cons became the Liberals.

WOW Translation please??

To defend myself against some aggression here. My second post states: "I hope ontario can get leadership that will make ontario a "HAVE" province again."

The VERY definition of have and have not provinces coming directly from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/...zation_payments_in_Canada

"In Canada, the federal government makes equalization payments to less wealthy Canadian provinces to equalize the provinces' "fiscal capacity" — their ability to generate tax revenues. A province that does not receive equalization payments is often referred to as a "have province", while one that does is called a "have not province."

By using the phrase, "have" province, it is implicit that I am talking ONLY about equalization payments... as per the accusation from you: "So now you are trying to backtrack by arguing you are only talking about the equalization program?"

the answer is yes. Yes please.

In the 2012-2013 year, the following provinces will receive equalization payments:[4]

Quebec ($7.391 billion)
Ontario ($3.261 billion)
Manitoba ($1.671 billion)
New Brunswick ($1.495 billion)
Nova Scotia ($1.268 billion)
Prince Edward Island ($337 million)

The following provinces will not qualify for equalization payments in 2012-2013:[4]

Alberta
Saskatchewan
Newfoundland and Labrador
British Columbia

As for the comment about "you" getting a new leader, I wasn't talking about YOU... it was about Ontario getting a new leader. Talk about getting out raged about semantics, Jesus.

Ok for the Americans who are lost.

Dalton McGuinty is/was the Premier of Ontario of the Liberal Party. He resigned under some real pressure and it probably was a good choice for him personally and, in the long run, maybe for the province. He did resign in a bad way by proroguing the house... but that's advanced Canadian stuff.

My statement is that I hope Ontario can get to a place where they are a HAVE province again. That term refers to equalization payments. In Canada, the federal government makes equalization payments to less wealthy Canadian provinces to equalize the provinces' "fiscal capacity" — their ability to generate tax revenues.

As for the history of this debacle... I believe it stems for the fact that Ontario used to be a "have" province and now they are butthurt that they need help from the western provinces and from Newfoundland and Labrador. Historically, under Pierre Trudeau (a Liberal who literally gave the finger to the west), the eastern provinces did not need the western vote to win elections in Canada... and so we were dismissed. I'm from Saskatchewan... we were a "have not" province for most of our lives until the Liberal Party was ousted from Canadian Parliament. The upturn under Stephen Harper and Brad Wall (SK Premier) in Saskatchewan, the redheaded stepchild of Confederation, suddenly saw a HUGE boom in everything! Every aspect of our economy went straight up... it went up so well that we were virtually shielded from the recession of 2008=> We saw growth THROUGH the recession, as a matter of fact.

I believe that anyone who gets so defensive when I call Ontario a "have not" province is just upset because finally Saskatchewan has it's day in the sun and now the rest of Canada relies partially on this province.

What I truly don't understand is why H4xOr WaNgEr is getting so angry about this stuff... maybe he was born in Ontario.

BACKGROUND: CANADA REQUIRES THAT ALL PRODUCT LABELS BE PRINTED IN FRENCH AS WELL AS ENGLISH. MCGUINTY SOUNDS LIKE A SCOTTISH NAME. HE PROBABLY DEMANDED THAT PRODUCT LABELS ALSO BE PRINTED IN SCOTTISH GAELIC, OR AT LEAST IN A SCOTTISH ACCENT. I AM FAIRLY CERTAIN THAT IS WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT.

ALSO, THEY HAVE A PROVINCE NAMED AFTER A BREED OF DOG. THEY DO NOT HAVE ANY PROVINCES NAMED AFTER CATS. THEY DO HAVE SOME CITIES NAMED AFTER PARTS OF MOOSES THOUGH. I'M NOT SURE IF THAT'S THE PROPER PLURAL FORM OF MOOSE, AS I'M NOT CANADIAN... OR ENGLISH... OR FRENCH. I AM PART SCOTTISH HOWEVER. DUE TO THAT, AND TO THE FACT THAT BRAVEHEART IS THE GREATEST MOVIE OF ALL TIME, I SIDE WITH MCGUINTY. I MAY ALSO SIDE WITH HAXOR THE FLAILING CHICKEN, BUT I CAN'T QUITE FIGURE IT OUT. ALL I KNOW IS THAT I ALWAYS DISAGREE WITH DISSIDENT ABOUT POLITICS, JUST ON PRINCIPLE. SINCE HAXOR SEEMS TO ALSO DISAGREE WITH DISSIDENT, THEN I PROBABLY AGREE WITH HIM.

ONE IMPORTANT FACT TO POINT OUT: IN THE WAR OF 1812, CANADA REMAINED NEUTRAL. THIS IS WHY THEY DO NOT CURRENTLY OWN ALASKA, A PROVINCE WHICH COULD HAVE SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASED CANADA'S MOOSE PARTS INDUSTRY. ALASKA WOULD DEFINITELY BE A "HAVE" PROVINCE.

SYRUP PROBABLY HAS A PART TO PLAY IN ALL OF THIS AS WELL.

I HOPE I WAS ABLE TO CLEAR THINGS UP FOR YOU, TRUMPER!

HA!

SAM
CANADIAN AMBASSADOR, AND CHAMPION OF THE EUGLAF DIVISION,
THE MIGHTY CLAN [DANGER]!

ALSO, IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT THE LABRADOR WAS NOT CROSS BRED WITH THE POODLE EARLIER IN HISTORY. THEN CANADA COULD HAVE A PROVINCE NAMED LABRADOODLE. I THINK THAT WOULD BE EXCELLENT!

SO A QUESTION FOR YOU CANADIANS: IF THERE WERE A PROVINCE RENAMED LABRADOODLE, WHICH WOULD IT BE AND WHY? AND DO YOU THINK THE REST OF CANADA WOULD ALL MOVE THERE, EVEN IF IT WAS THE NORTHWEST TERRITORIES? IT IS MY ASSERTION THAT THE ONLY REASON THE NORTHWEST TERRITORIES HAS SUCH LOW POPULATION IS THAT IT HAS SUCH A BORING NAME. BEING ABLE TO WRITE "LABRADOODLE" ON THE RETURN ADDRESS PORTION OF AN ENVELOPE WOULD BE A MASSIVE DRAW. I WOULD DEFINITELY MOVE TO LABRADOODLE IF I WERE CANADIAN.

UNTIL A PROVINCE IS RENAMED LABRADOODLE, THE BEST NAMED PROVINCE AWARD WILL BE RETAINED BY NUNAVUT. IT'S A NAME, AND A PHRASE.

HOW MUCH OF CANADA'S POPULATION LIVES THERE?

NUNAVUT.

HA!

SAM
CHIEF GEOGRAPHER, AND CHAMPION OF THE EUGLAF DIVISION,
THE MIGHTY CLAN [DANGER]!

About the war of 1812... it's improper to consider that Canada fought in it because Canada only became a country in 1867.

The British who occupied the land that is now Canada DID fight in the war of 1812 and burnt down the White House.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_Washington

The reason is that Americans were causing havoc in the land that is now Canada.. the British (and Irish) troops laid waste where they could... and occupied Washington DC for a short while.

DID CANADA DECLARE WAR, DISSI? NO! PLEASE STOP MUDDLING THE ISSUE WITH USELESS FACTUAL INFORMATION ABOUT WHEN CANADA BECAME A COUNTRY. IF CANADIANS REALLY CARED, THEY COULD HAVE DECLARED THEIR INDEPENDENCE FROM ENGLAND AND THEN JOINED IN THE WAR OF 1812! THEN THEY WOULD HAVE ALASKA. THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS HERE. JUST THINK HOW MANY MORE CITIES THEY COULD HAVE NAMED AFTER MOOSE PARTS! OR MEDICINAL HEADWEAR! OPPORTUNITY SQUANDERED.

YOU'RE EITHER WITH US OR AGAINST US. CLEARLY, CANADA WAS NOT WITH US IN 1812. THEREFORE, YOU ARE TERRORISTS. ONCE WE GET DONE WITH AFGHANISTAN... AND THEN PROBABLY IRAN.. AND THEN MAYBE SAUDI ARABIA OR DELAWARE, YOU FOLKS HAD BETTER WATCH OUT!

THAT WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE IS TERRIBLY OVERSIMPLIFIED. YES, THE IRISH WERE THERE, BUT THEY DID NOT COME TO FIGHT. THEY HAD BEEN LED BY THE BRITISH TO BELIEVE THAT THE POTOMAC RIVER CONTAINED WHISKEY RATHER THAN WATER. ONCE THEY ARRIVED AND LEARNED THE TRUTH, THEY ATTEMPTED TO SHOW THEIR DISPLEASURE BY EXPLODING THINGS. THE IRISH LIKE TO EXPLODE THINGS, WHICH IS WHY WE HAVE NAMED IRELAND THE CAPITAL OF THE MIGHTY CLAN [DANGER]! HOWEVER, THEY DID NOT HAVE EXPLOSIVES, SO THEY ENDED UP ONLY BURNING STUFF.

I KNOW ALL OF THIS BECAUSE MY BROTHER-IN-LAW IS IRISH. DON'T BELIEVE ME? HIS NAME IS SEAMUS. GO TO IRELAND AND LOOK HIM UP. HE'LL TELL YOU. I'VE BEEN TRYING TO CONVINCE HIM AND A FEW OF HIS FRIENDS TO COME VISIT D.C. BY TELLING THEM THAT THERE ARE WELLS OF ARTESIAN BEER, BUT SO FAR THEY HAVE NOT FALLEN FOR IT.

THE BEST NAMED CITY IN IRELAND IS KILLYBEGS, BY THE WAY.

HA!

SAM
WORLD TRAVELER, HISTORIAN, AND CHAMPION OF THE EUGLAF DIVISION,
THE MIGHTY CLAN [DANGER]!

Nunavut is a territory, not a province.

Also, I don't see H4 as upset, dissidenticn; he's merely discussing how you seem to be jumping around the argument as he's pointing out flaws in it.

As he pointed out, Ontario does certainly pay more into the federal government's coffers than we get back. And we generally know that we're not getting as much back as we pay in. We're used to it; Ontario is to Canada as Germany is to the EU. Personally I'm happy to share the prosperity we have with other Canadians. It makes us a better nation.

I was never a Dalton fan. Even if I wanted to be, there are too many teachers in my life for me to support him. I live in his district but have never voted for him. I never even got any Liberal literature sent to my house (or ANY party's literature or doorknockers, for that matter). He won in a landslide. I was disappointed.

SO IT'S CANADA'S VERSION OF PUERTO RICO? I STAND BY MY STATEMENT THAT IT STILL HAS THE BEST NAME, UNTIL A PROVINCE - FINE.. OR TERRITORY - IS RENAMED LABRADOODLE.

HA!

SAM

I didnt' say anything about conservatives views on the environment, or their compassion, or how learned they are. It seems that you are the one who is projecting onto me.

You are even projecting that I am a liberal supporter.

I was disappointed that you haven't responded to my comment that I was talking solely about equalization payments. I guess that means you agree?

All I want is for you to admit that ontario is considered a have not province. As per my original statement.

You used the term "have province" but by the context of your message you were obviously referring to more than just the equalization program (even if you didn't intend to or didn't realize you were).

This is obvious by the fact that you claimed in the post "stop stealing my grain and wealth". That is the comment I was addressing and that comment indicates that you clearly are not talking about the equalization program, or that you don't know what the equalization program is/what you are talking about.

Take your pick.

:(

Oh my... Let's not get angry or throw insults. I haven't, I expect you won't either. My comment was made facetiously until everyone got all emotional.

Ok, I get it, ontario contributes WAY more to equalization than saskatchewan does. I get it... You have 40% of canadas population or something while we have 1/38th of canada's population... You dang well better be giving more! Per capita, tho, sk is outproducing ontario. These statistics are not refutable. SK is a have province and ontario is not.

The grain and potash and oil stealing comment was a joke... Earthempires hunour... Like a spyop. But apparently it was lost on you.

No it seems that you still do not get it, but I'm not going to try to explain it any further.

Aww... Now what am I going to do to kill the day?

Umm, go to work or school?

It doesn't matter how the province receives money back from the federal government or in what form (the shipyard project is money/resources back from the federal government but is not "equalization".
I will try to simplify H4's point:
ALL provinces get federal spending in terms of programs, offices, transfer payments and other grants (this includes the military base in Edmonton fyi). There is nothing wrong with this, the federal government is consitutionally obligated to do certain things and some of these things require money (like courts and the tax/passport offices).

Ontario pays A in federal taxes. Ontario gets back B in federal spending A < B.
This is also true for Alberta and Saskatchewan but I think no other provinces right now (but will soon be true for newfoundland if all goes well for them).
All tax money goes somewhere be it salaries, services, or other projects
Thus Ontario, Alberta, and saskatchewan are subsidizing services where the beneficiary is some other province (or territory).

For ontario B - A is larger than Alberta and saskatchewan put together, even when you add "equalization payments" to A.
Ontario has been a net contributor for years, even before Saskatchewan and Alberta had oil.

You should also know that "royalties" are 100% deductible from federal taxes owing. Consequently any royalty revenue is essentially money collected from your province that can now not be collected by the federal government to the extend that they offset taxes owed (you can collect royalties from a company that isn't profitable but the CRA generally does not).

I think you meant to say that A > B, but otherwise yes that is what I was trying to say.

Do they have this type of inter-state arguments down south? Holy fluff people, we're Canadians. I don't care where my federal tax money goes (in terms of provinces) anymore than I care where my municipal tax money goes (in terms of specific road projects in my city.) As long as it's helping my fellow Canadians, and their taxes are helping me, who gives a fluff? This argument is so un-Canadian :(

Holy smokes. Yall are getting to technical for this lowly peon. To put it out there, Alberta's per capita GDP is almost double Ontario's. So while Ontario's economy is still double the size of Alberta's, it's insincere to claim that the rest of Canada doesn't matter.

Similarly, it is widely reported that Ontario is calculated through equalization as a have not province and has since fiscal 2010/11. What that means to us? Probably that some politician somewhere is plotting to spend our tax dollars on something dumb.


Anyways, McGuinty needs to wait until after Justin Trudeau crashes and burns before looking to before a fed politician. If he becomes one right now the liberal party will do just as poorly as it did under the weenie french guy, but be far less principled.

I just want to make it clear that I have never intended to undermine the importance of Ontario to this country. Without Ontario, this country would not be as successful as it is now. I just hope that Ontario can become a "have" province under a new leader.

Certainly my plea is not contemptible.