This is a shortened version of slagpit's post from another board but it is the product of a discussion amongst the staff and individual player input:


The idea is to minimize DR abuse and how players are able to work together.

CHANGE #1: All countries start in GDI and all countries can leave GDI at any time but cannot rejoin.

CHANGE #2: A country is kicked out of GDI if it does 5 or more landgrabs on the same target.

CHANGE #3: Special attacks do not add to the defender's DR.

CHANGE #4: If in the past 24 hours a country has landgrabbed you and you have not landgrabbed them since, your first retal will ignore DR rules.

The first change is mainly to protect new players who may not be aware of the unique GDI rules and to prevent players from forgetting to join GDI.

The second change is to mainly prevent players from using landfarms.

The third change is to prevent players from using DR as a substitute for defense.

The fourth change is to address situations where countries have friends put themselves in DR and them farm other players.

~~~~~~~~~~

thoughts please.

fix team also?

change 4, how does it manage multiple hits? meaning if country X hits country Y, and then country Z puts X into DR, can country Y hit country X multiple times, ignoring DR, or are there going to be "enforced" retal rules?

so:

X hits Y (200a)
Z hits X (DH)
Z hits X (DH)
Z hits X (DH)
Z hits X (DH)
Z hits X (DH)
Z hits X (DH)
Z hits X (DH)
Z hits X (DH)
Y hits X (200a)

assuming Y hits X again, does it see:

Y hits X (195a)

or

Y hits X (10a)

Also, would this change with the number of initial hits on Y from X

I'm liking this! Although, I do not fully understand #4.

I think the second change might not stop landfarming. If you are out of GDI, you can still farm. Likewise, DR can be made by DH SS attacks. I would suggest CHANGE #5: DH do not count towards DR.

The other changes seem minor enough and improve the quality of game play.

#2 should be 3 grabs, not 5.

4 means that if you grab me and then get sent into dr some other way, I can still retal you (once) as though you weren't sent into DR.

So ignoring all the other changes
if you grab me and then get your buddy to gs you 100 times
I can still retal you as though that never happened (my first hit only).

@mapleson: @change 5, yes..

"assuming Y hits X again, does it see:

Y hits X (195a)

or

Y hits X (10a)"

It would be Y hits X (10a).. as I understand it.

What about if you are already in DR from 100 GS and grab me? Will it work that way as well? That will stop people to get sent into DR and decide to go on a landgrabbing spree.

Now, if a country doubletaps you, still open range? Meaning I can kill it?

ok, that brings up the next question:

now, X doubletaps Y before getting put into DR.

how many times does Y get to hit X before he falls under DR rules?

basically, i'm just curious whether the concept of the escalating retal is part of this, or if it'll just be 1:1

(not complaining, just curiosity)

Great, I'm glad you guys are working on this. Thank you.

It doesn't address bounces, which cheaters may turn to for DR protection, but I suppose that would be hard to address as real bounces could wear down a player's defense and still leave him open to more attack. Overall, though, I think the special strikes combined with the retals should take care of most abusers.

I'm not sure we thought that far ahead... you do raise a good point about it. As written it would still only be once. But I see where this is going.

oh also, i assume in #2 that it's like #1, if you leave GDI for whatever reason, you can't get back in that reset

What about if you are already in DR from 100 GS and grab me? Will it work that way as well? That will stop people to get sent into DR and decide to go on a landgrabbing spree.

Also, I know it's not related to abuse so much, but I still think change #1 is a very solid change that will help new players etc.

@crest: yes

Thanks martian!!!... YaY :)
#3 is really all we needed the rest is icing
#1 its a strategy to join later and save money, how about being able to join or leave gdi when ever but not after multi-taps or special attacks?? it would be nice to jump into gdi if someone starts shooting missiles at you andfor no reason. and booted outta gdi and cant rejoin if you do 3Lgs on same target or special attacks/bad spy ops



+1 KoH

don't thank me for this one, thank slagpit :)

3 lg attack limit would also fix bounced lg dr prob.. cause you would loose gdi as a penalty.

I'm not sure how this would affect gameplay but I appreciate that admins are looking into it.

Can we have a time limit for how long you have for retals. I just find it disturbing that you can take a 200 acres hit at turn 300 and take a 2500 retal at turn 1700

Pony up your D then you don't have to worry about it!

Anyone can attack anyone at any time except the last 6 hours tduong, how are you gonna stop it? But the new DR rule martian proposes would only allow DR-free retals for 24 hours.

only if you in turn limit what large countries can grab from small countries.

if you determine you're allowed to take my land, you had better damn well accept that i'm allowed to take your land, too. if you don't want to hit for small gains and be retalled for big gains, don't hit for small gains.

very simple fix, not by game admins at all, but entirely by the player itself.

i do realize bottom feeding is an accepted strategy in this game, and one that should not be entirely routed. but what you have to realize is that early game small losses for mid game big returns is a strategy all of its own.

and a quite effective one, to boot.

I think all changes are great!

Sounds great, I look forward to giving it a try. Thanks for all your hard work

These look great. None of these seem to affect the core of the game, just ways people have been abusing it. Will anyone update eestats to reflect the new DR changes or is that just wishful thinking?

I like all of it except that on # 2 i think we should still be able to use any kind of strikes on a country that hits us more than one time.

Also, for those that think getting kicked out of GDI would not stop land farms it would- cause under this play if a guy, say JJ as an example, was using a land farm- got booted from GDI for it- well, a guy like me might decide to get out of gdi too and ruin his set. IE- no cheater is going to win this game. Also, if your not in GDI your chances to win are minimal.

from what i can tell, if it's anybody jj or not, and you aren't in gdi and you "deserve it" or "not", without it you'll be fubar'd :P

^ no gdi = FUBAR

well said indeed

This could eb a good thing for tduong too. He could use a little FUBAR.

Sounds good.

My question would be re: 4.
Clearly if a country attacks you, you can retal through their DR. If they then choose to ROR against you (hit you a second time), would you still get another hit back without DR in effect?

Make every country a 1:1 DR system.

CHANGE #1: All countries start in GDI and all countries can leave GDI at any time but cannot rejoin.

oldman - Does it mean all of us start with GDI upkeep?

CHANGE #2: A country is kicked out of GDI if it does 5 or more landgrabs on the same target.

oldman - will the old GDI rule apply? i.e. if someones hit you more than once, you get to send special attacks at them?

CHANGE #3: Special attacks do not add to the defender's DR.

oldman - this is a nice change. But someone can still send a bunch of SS/PS DH to get someone into DR. But I guess rule #4 will take care of that because you'll still be able to take back your land in the retal.

CHANGE #4: If in the past 24 hours a country has landgrabbed you and you have not landgrabbed them since, your first retal will ignore DR rules.

oldman - I like this one.

For Change #2, i'd make it an exit of GDI once 3 more more grabs are on the same target.

+1

Yes, 3 grabs.

My thoughts:

CHANGE #1: All countries start in GDI and all countries can leave GDI at any time but cannot rejoin.

I've been suggesting this in multiple places. I've said before that Express and Primary is too easily suicided on unless GDI was opt-out, particularly for new players.



CHANGE #2: A country is kicked out of GDI if it does 5 or more landgrabs on the same target.

5 is too many. Make it 3. The rule also suggests that if 2 countries exchange 2 landgrabs with each other, they can still both war each other to death but neither will exit GDI as long as they don't make a 3rd grab on each other, and only use special attacks from that point onwards.



CHANGE #3: Special attacks do not add to the defender's DR.

The problem I have with this is that a country being ABed or BRed into a useless country will be grabbed by other countries taking advantage of the situation, making it even harder for said country to make a comeback. However, this does solve a variety of "hiding in DR" problems and the pros probably outweighs the cons.

@oldman A bunch of SS/PSes DH to get someone into DR will be extremely clear that its purpose is abuse (is the a country-deletable offense?). This is unlike special attacks which is ambiguous in nature.



CHANGE #4: If in the past 24 hours a country has landgrabbed you and you have not landgrabbed them since, your first retal will ignore DR rules.

This is abusable in the exact opposite way of what it is trying to prevent. Let's say my friend is in 100 DR caused by 100 ABs and is crippled into nothing, and he has been grabbed 9 times by other people using Change #3 on top of that. He could now explore max turns, make a single SS Defense Held attack on me, and I would be able to retal for huge acres.

In order to fix this, Change #4 should be modified to say "CHANGE #4: If in the past 24 hours a country has landgrabbed you SUCCESSFULLY and you have not landgrabbed them since, your first retal will ignore DR rules." That's the extra word in there, SUCCESSFULLY.



Edit: I edited my post because I realized Change #4 is abusable, and have suggested a fix.

Xinhuan, I think #3 means that only retals will bypass DR.

Not the way I read it Crest. I read it at face value: "Special attacks do not add to the defender's DR", so a country that gets ABed 100x can still be land grabbed for a lot of acres. Has nothing to do with retals. This would be closer to how missiles function which currently does not add or remove DR for both the attacker and defender.

#3 should be 5 attacks (not just landgrabs, right?)including harmful spyops?

#4 is not a good idea...
a retal in first 24hrs should NOT be at 0DR..? it should be at the same DR or better that the attacker had when he attacked. if i have 4 ligit dr when i land grab and target has 3dr... then he gets to retal me back at 0dr?? thats not right either. why would anyone want to lg then...? i would just explore and wait for a target with 0 DR, so it would be fair... how many times you get a small target with 0DR?? LOL maybe at the begining of the set.
if the DR system is fixed.. we dont need to bypass DR.. because with these changes, it should be fixed!!
this would further give cashers and techers another advantage...

Jackelope, your suggestion makes no sense. By your suggestion, if I have 100 DR and then grab your country for land, now I have 99 DR. I continue to grab 5 other countries. I'm now at 94 DR, which you can retal me at. All 6 countries can retal me at 94 DR for two digit acres. That doesn't make sense because it doesn't fix the problem - its been happening every reset.

Also people landgrab because it is more turn-efficient than exploring. If I am reasonably sure you cannot retal me even at 0 DR, then I'll be sure to grab you.

I think the suggestions sounds good. I might even play express again if they are enforced :)

Xinhuan.. i think it makes sense.
just because its a retal they shouldnt automatically get to hit at 0 DR... the new strat will be banking turns and waiting to spring a trap.. as if thats not bad enough already, with the 200A hits retaled at 1000+ acres already.. its just going to make it worse.
also keep in mind the DR system should be "fixed" only legit LGs should count in the new improvements.. special attacks wont count towards DR.
maybe too many improvements at one time.
try first set with just the DR fix.. it seems to many things fixed at once might put the game on tilt

you can't abuse DR if you make it so the next time you spend a turn, your DR resets.

ild just wait for you to take a turn, wack you some more.

exactly. that's fair. Cause i can wait til my turns build up before doing anything to wack you back :)

Jackelope, you have to understand that 200A hits retaled at 1000A isn't a bad thing. If it happens, it means you shouldn't have made the 200A hit to begin with, and it is an error in judgement.

It's a little bit bad in Express, not because 200 <-> 1000 is necessarily terrible, though it's not great, but because it's TOO EASY to make that retal. You can say it was an error in judgment, but I'd counter that ANYONE you attack, unless it's a rainbow, can pull off a retal on Express if they really want to.