There it is..wham! on the table

Eh you know i'm pushing for Ice to give the go ahead. but the decision isn't mine pal.

but it is mildy amusing that he mentions its not about politics but myself and others have requested proof and recieved nothing. So its like "we have proof we won't give it to you but we will post it on FFAT if you want.

oh and P.S. this isn't about politics!"

There was a similar situation like this before. An alliance leader demanded to see the proof against his alliance. After seeing the proof, he denied everything and he used that information to cheat better.

So what value is there in releasing detailed information privately? Maybe a few people have their curiosity satisfied, but someone could potentially use that information to evade our cheating detection systems, to blackmail individuals or alliances, or to make political attacks.

So for now, we are willing to do three things:
-Explain to the people who had countries deleted what went on in their accounts and to listen to their appeals.
-Work with LaE leaders to investigate any hacking that may have happened and if possible deal out appropriate punishment for it.
-Post a near full disclosure on the boards for everyone to read, with permission of iceman.

Look, I hold no ill-will towards any player on here,hell i don't know anyone PERSONALLY.
I play with some folks on 1 server and against them on another,i do not let it get by me that this is just a game,but i do take affront to the accusations that someone may be cheating to beat me. :)

Eh I am crazy on top of deleting sent and recieved messages even when they aren't even as good as having a site log in. Not everyone likes to rock a clean box ;)

i had around 18,000 messages in my inbox in NA earthstats, and around 26,000 in my outbox

you cant keep a box clean when you talk that much lol

its called DELETE ALL!

**llaar hordes empty milk jugs and dust bunnies**

I would say if nothing else hopefully we at LAE learn about password safety you know! I've at least seen some proof leading to unsafe passwords i've seen 0 of cheating.

So incompetent leaders it is! I'm trying to change that.

"just post everything you know already, and this can be cleared up in a respectable debate"


That's just it. Theres no reason to debate. They dont owe you anything.

They don't even owe you the simple posts they've given already.

Cheaters are deleted. Why would they tell you how the caught you?


"you are doing more to hurt the reputation of LaE and the game by not telling the entire story as you know it, than you are by keeping it secret"

LaE hurt itself

Are you saying ICe does not want things going public? Surprise!

I haven't talked to Ice so I'm not saying anything. Your assumptions are just that. And you know what Assume means... lol

The truth will set you free my friends.

Your assumptions suck thats all. I haven't talked to Ice. If I do and hes like eh yeah I don't want that posted then that will be one more piece of info that leans me towards maybe it isn't all an honest mistake...

But I haven't talked to him yet don't worry though I will cutie!

I know right! I like my interpretation of the truth! clouds are made out of cotton candy!

I would not have sent you 18,000 messages if you would have responded to the first one.

what about all the images in there creepy.

Eh see if there was guilt to be taken then yes dropping it would be the best course of action.

is the next week or what ever going to matter if we have deleted countries or not, nope absolutely not.

Maybe (which I doubt about the believe not about our country numbers), Next set we run 700-800 countries in our tag and no deletions and everyone goes oh man maybe they weren't full of it last set..

And since the option above isn't likely I would rather clear this out and get it over with now and not wait until the end of next set for people to say wow if someone didn't maliciously log into a bunch of your accounts you wouldn't of been deleted.

my main issue isnt whether LaE cheated, or didnt cheat

my main issue is that i know that information was passed along to admins through a hacker, and the hacker took actions to advance his agenda of getting people deleted

what kind of message does it send that the admins are willing to take information from ANYONE willing to give it? no matter how it was obtained? i mean, if i hack into another clans site, and gather information, and pass it on to the mods, no mater what the information is, is it right to use that information against said clan?

basic principal id illegal search and seizure imo

except search & seizure laws are regarding government sponsored law enforcement.

im talking about the morality of it, not the legal aspect of it, DAMN. come on man, stop taking things out of context

fordy hit the nail on the head... thats exactly how i feel

Really? You don't care that LaE leaders are cheating?

:( only did it once

rico, also, stop taking things out of context and fluffing READ. damnit

i said MAIN ISSUE

not "man i dont give a fluff if we cheated"

fluff reading comprehension is lacking on these boards

fluff rico. he's caught us. i think you're a multi of mine or something. we both took ford out of context

:D

LaE leaders care more about how information was obtained rather than the information that was obtained.


Everyone put on your surprised face!


:-O


So what you're saying is, if the information was gathered "legally/morally" its okay to delete.

If the information was gathered "illegally/immorally" then its not okay to use it...even if you are cheating.

So the cheaters are speaking of morals?


Sounds like the defense of a cheater:

Yeah, I had 47 dead bodies in my house but he peeked in my window so it doesn't count!



How in the Sam Hell would anyone find out you were running multis if they didn't do something slightly underhanded to find it? How would they "legally" find out?

How is that any different than the admins sniffing around your personal info ingame to see if you are cheating?



Do you live under power lines?

i didnt say that the information obtained was proof that NA cheated or that we did not cheat. that information could of been twisted and put into any context that was needed, to support the agenda of the hacker. not to mention that in addition to passing information along, the hacker decided to log into all the countries he could

so as a review.

hacker gets on LaEs site, finds information that he thinks mods need to know

passes info along to mods

logs into several LaE accounts to further incriminate LaE and expedite the process, before the mods can analyze the information. so deletions are made irregardless of the information


my question, is this ethical? imo its along the SAME lines as cheating

EDIT: the information i believe that was obtained was not proof of cheating, however it could be misconstrued as malicious conduct if taken out of context, and it was only a experiment for improving our site. im not going into what exactly was taken, because its not my place

i play solitare all the time, tits. does that count?

mrford: your post can be interpreted as "if you don't get caught, it is ok"

thats not what im sating at all. read the edit

It sounds like you've got quite a handle on what is going on here. Do you have something to tell us?

By the way, since we are demanding proof, what brings you to speculate such an extravagant plan?

"and it was only a experiment for improving our site."


You're saying you created a cheating scheme to experiment with your site?

Have we really come to that?


And did you just really say "irregardless"?

Some Guy: You do realize that's how many actual legal systems are run, right? At least in the United States, if cops illegally search a car and find evidence of a crime, the evidence is thrown out.

So if you're using the analogy of the dead bodies thing, that doesn't work.

Of course, I realize the admins of this game aren't subject to the same types of laws concerning investigating, and besides that, when people sign up for this game, they are giving permission for admins to look at much of the information that would be used to ascertain if they were cheating. Therefore, it's ENTIRELY different from someone hacking into a site and finding any type of evidence.

Lastly, there's been no evidence posted publicly that would refute the story told by LaE leadership, which is that people sent desired usernames/passwords to DM on BoxCar, someone hacked our BoxCar and used that information to get access to both our new EZClone site and, in cases of players that had the same passwords for both EE and BoxCar, logged in to their accounts and therefore put them in suspicion of cheating.

So ultimately Some Guy, if you're going to make insulting statements like "Do you live under power lines?" you might want to make sure you actually can formulate a logical argument first.

did i say it was a cheating scheme?

dont believe i said anything as to what the tool was, or how it was being used did i?


all i said is, without explanation of what it was, and how it was being used, it possibly could be viewed as a malicious tool. which, when you get the info from a biased hacker, im sure all the info was not passed along


edit: what if i did say irregardless?

This is a game. You do not have constitutional rights here and you never will.

You do not have a right to prevent illegal search and seizure just as you do not have a right to free speech.

A comparison is nothing but confusing people from the truth.

"Lastly, there's been no evidence posted publicly that would refute the story told by LaE leadership, which is that people sent desired usernames/passwords to DM on BoxCar, someone hacked our BoxCar and used that information to get access to both our new EZClone site and, in cases of players that had the same passwords for both EE and BoxCar, logged in to their accounts and therefore put them in suspicion of cheating."



I am Britney Spears. Prove that I'm not or I must be.

so by your logic

game admins should have unlimited access to all clan sites, able to read all PMs and have a full disclosure contract to be able to play this game?

that logic would kill this game many times faster than cheaters ever would

Not even. But by your logic anything that isn't told to the admins directly IE - "hey, I'm cheating" is void.

So what if one of your members told them you were all cheating and gave them good intel regarding it and they investigated and found it to be true? Shall it be accepted?

Can we just admit that you were cheating and move on?

I'm starting to think you aren't one of the blind followers mrford.

"If someone anonymously sends us information, that person is probably either a whistleblower or a hacker. It is impossible for us to tell which."

We currently use whatever information we come across, with the option to punish the provider if we deem it necessary. I believe that is similar to how the US legal system works. The admins aren't the ones hacking into sites. We basically received an anonymous tip.

It is a nice thought to say that we will never use information obtained through immoral means, but that's a very grey area and it's very easy for the accused to claim that they were hacked.

claim?

an admin has confirmed they were the same IPs

there is no claimed about it

100

blind follower, no. and if cheating is PROVEN, i will take actions

but it had not been PROVEN to me. and i do not cheat, never have, and never will

This thread makes me want to drink.

I can't argue with idiots any longer.

There has been no proof presented to me that LaE's site or boxcar was hacked. There are a number of scenarios which can explain why the same ip address is there. Some are legal, some are illegal, and some are in-between.

As I've repeatedly said, we would be happy to work with your leadership to investigate the hacking and to take appropriate action ingame. That's going to be a separate issue from restoring the countries though.

Rico you are calling LaE cheaters but you play with them in NA....Titanium you played there long ago too and I'm pretty sure you leaving had nothing to with any cheating.

LOUD NOISES!

I would like to point out that while anonymous tip based info may have been provided, the regular mod tools were more than enough to commit these ones to the deletion pile... we didn't need any extra info at that point really =/

I have to say, what's looking to be the damning proof against LaE/NA is that only a very small % of the deleted players have contacted EE staff directly. I know if my country were deleted, I'd be writing a whole lotta emails about it....and it sure wouldn't wait 2-3 days for alliance heads to figure it out.