PDM, we don't accept missile retals, dec wars, or harmful ops. You consider them retals, then ROR what we consider retals. Now you killed one of our members, so we are taking a page out of your book. We are using non traditional retal methods. Therefore, we are using the entire PDM tag to retal at will. All of our hits are retals, you are owed a LOT of retals.

LAF is not at war with PDM so no war DNH is needed, we are simply taking retals in a non conventional matter.

That is all.

Lord Tarnava
LaF War leader type guy

Makes zero practical sense when you look at the timeline of what happened this set. I'm blue in the face from stating it reasonably.

confirmed.

we had some problems with members getting overzealous in grabbing this reset.

let's see all the candidates:

sanct worked out a fair deal with me. they got their acres back too.
wof didn't even mind those hits and retaled the proper way.
icn worked out a deal with me.
evo worked out a deal with me.

pdm's FA was nowhere to be found. despite that we put them on DNH and they started to topfeed us heavily, and do strange retals like harmful spy ops, nukes, and dec war.

i am led to believe the problem isn't with LaF, because every other alliance has FA that is capable to talk to me, but PDM. and since PDM practices unconventional retals, we are testing it out.

and from that test, i can see why you guys do it ;P therefore LaF apologizes to PDM for making fun of their unconventional retal policy. there was that saying that went "you can't knock it until you try it"

lol

You knew this the whole time, it is the core belief of Laf that the problem is not with Laf. Ever. Period.

i never said the problem wasn't with LaF. i apologized for doubting your retal policy, and i also apologized for the actions of my members earlier this reset to you guys and all the other alliances which they tried to grab too much.

why do you think i worked out deals with other alliances? because they listened, they gave me their concerns. like wof was willing to retal like normal people, so everything went on like normal, sanct for instance (and they are happy to confirm this) didn't want to buy up to retal those guys with 7M turrets, so we let them hit another LaF member with low acres who was willing to give up their land in retribution.

you see what happens when you talk via FA channels? you get communication and both sides get heard and we can reach a common ground.

it is unfortunate that PDM doesn't believe in doing FA

pies all

Whoever in PDM was doing espionage on me a few days ago .... thank you. Because of you taking ~20k tech points from me, I boosted up my SPAL, and today I was able to diffuse about 60 missiles and blow up over 2.5 million jets.

You're right, Hanlong. Don't knock non-traditional retal methods until you try them. Less jets, no nukes = my land is safer.

this will not end well

hanlong, i want to continue to give you the benefit of the doubt here. i went out of my way to clearly outline my comprehensive understanding of how events transpired this set in PMs to you and enshula, asking if there was anything i was missing. you did not reply.

you farmed us in the same way you do every time laf nets. FA discussions in the past (sets spanning several calendar years) went nowhere. our FA was also on vacation, for whatever that is worth to you.

we retaled 6 NMs to the countries that hit us 17 times. i understand that you feel this is unreasonable. in the end, you still gained land off of us.

you continued to farm us indiscriminately. supposedly someone did harmful ops on you, though you haven't told me who. it certainly wasn't the countries you were farming the hardest.

you continued to farm us indiscriminately.

we killed one of the most flagrant offenders and stopped at that even though others were due death for doing dozens of unprovoked grabs.

you proceed to farm us indiscriminately.

until you can respond to the case i laid out to you, i truly don't believe you have any ground to stand on from which to pretend you've been reasonable with us.

I see PDM is RORing again this time with ABs.. Oh well we can play this game also!

you see the problem here?

all these actions were from what you wanted to do, without even bothering to talk to me?

i see your point, and it would've been nice if you communicated those points to me instead of acting all gungho on your own =)

that's my point. i am not justifying or nor did i ever justify that LaF doing 17 hits on PDM in 24 hours is right. you can look at all my posts i merely indicated that you guys topfed us twice first which was probably a reason why some of the members thought it was ok to grab you guys. grabbing is fine, and it wasn't coordinated but i do agree the amount was a bit excessive which is why i immediately set you to DNH and attempted to reach out to you guys.

i also do understand from the past history LaF would've told you they were right to hit you lots of times in a short period to overwhelm your retal policy, and it is unfortunate you took those past events into refusing to talk to me while every other alliance this reset actually did, but even then, you could've tried to talk to me first before deciding that I wouldn't work out a fair deal with you.

can you tell me why you didn't even bother opening FA discussions with me, stating your problems, and we can calculate how much land/hits needs to be exchanged so both sides are happy like every other alliance who i dealt with. if your reason was because i would have told you to fluff off because LaF/PDM history indicated that, you have to remember that the last time i played this game was 2006, so you cannot hold be representative of what LaF FA department would do from your recent memories of LaF

From personal dealings with hanlong & co, I can confirm that they are very pleasant to deal with :)

hanlong, i see your point. essentially you are saying, forget precedent, we should start new with you every set even when you continue the same old abuse set after set.

if i were a FA perhaps i would have come to kiss the ring and see if there was a new way we could bend over for you this set.

in this situation, laf was consistently and by a wide margin the aggressor and dealer of unproportional force.

i approached you and appealed to your sense of reason on this point and was given no real response but continued mass farming of our tag.

can you see why we would think diplomacy with laf is wasted breath?

This could be a decent war...

mass farming PDM for an entire set and not buying tanks is just ignorant :P

no, i merely stated if you notice LaF has a brand new FA team that you haven't dealt with, you should try to talk to them first?

if it was "insert old LaF FA here who wasn't nice to you (because honestly i don't know which one you weren't happy with)" at it again, you can probably use precedent.

i was a head or Don of LaF since 2000. i did take breaks from 2001-2002 and 2006-2010, and i apologize if you had any bad experiences with LaF during those times.

but regardless i dont recall ever having a problem with PDM during the other times i was active.. hell i remember we had a LDP with PDM for a period of time too... so you really have to remind me why i get to be "part of the precedent" when you deal with me.

This is not a war, we are retalling hits.

LT, stop bouncing retals.

yo hanlong, im really happy for you, imma let you finish but Scrub was the best LaF FA of all time

lol Scrub worked under me back in 2003 ;) he was merely pushing my agenda!

Scrub was a... scrub. It's true, Eug probably said so.

How hard is this?


Go to red alert -> Save All turns.

Announce a war room for your members tell them there is panks to kill!

FS.

Kill Panks.

Farm them to get your land back

But honestly PDM Nuke retals?

I'm giving PDM the benefit of the doubt and assuming they won't bend over and take it and just whine on AT. If I was running an alliance I'd do the same thing as LaF though. :)

I guess my point was that there was no change in behavior, and we had already beat our heads against that wall so many times before. It was particularly annoying coming off a "let's try to be friends again" kick.

If you actually take the time to look at hits traded, even if you weight our NMs double or triple in terms of aggression, it's... just... foolishness to claim that LaF somehow isn't in the wrong here.

Besides, you have not shown yourself to be a reasonable negotiator with me in my most recent discussion with you. I took the time to do the research, laid out the case, asked for a response, and then you mass farmed us (for the third time this set).

And what I'm perhaps most worked up about at the moment is that the spin about using our non-traditional retal methods isn't even good spin. :P

blah blah blah...lets have some fun.

i think we can all agree i've spent way too much time trying to reason with you guys on this issue.

seems we'll continue to work it out the way we have the last few years.

peace out :)

War

*DUMPS his OIL STOCKS FOR INSANE PRICES*

oh i do agree some of the points were for comical effects =) you have to remember this is a game and i'm sure everyone enjoys some interjection of humor here and there, or at least some half-assed attempt for it ;)

like i said, i'm compiling all the harmful spy ops PDM has done to us this reset and all the nukes and "dec war", all you've claimed to be retals.

you are still missing out on the spy ops:

let's take some examples:
Feb 23, 2011 4:45 PM
9 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 2985 points of technology!

9 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 3028 points of technology!

9 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 3066 points of technology!

9 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 3075 points of technology!

9 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 3082 points of technology!

----


Feb 23, 2011 6:49 PM
11 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1800 points of technology!

11 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1805 points of technology!

11 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1810 points of technology!

---

those two are two different guys, as rockman have said, he recieved a bunch also at a different time that i haven't got from him yet.

and there's a bunch more cases (literally like 5-6 more, i haven't had the time to collect them all).

plus the 200+ GSes on #36 which i already told you is RoR since it was from harmful spy ops.

but trust me when i say i added up the hits and we're merely retal-ing every single one of them.

like i said the door is open for talks, but you have to trust me when i say that every single hit on us to you (except for the original 17 in 24 which you always claim) are retals ;)

but oyu see the problem with doing harmful spy ops as "retals"? i don't like the idea of nuke retals, but at least they are trackable on the news. harmful spy ops as retals + lack of communication from you guys = you guys thinking we are "grabbing" when we are retaling.

i think there is a reason why every other alliance does not use retal policies anywhere close to what you guys are trying to use

But i didn't think LaF accepted retals on other tagged countries for hits?

Are you saying that you accept that now? if you are farming non-related PDM members for other PDM members hits?

No, only PDM this set, in direct response to their policy towards us. This is an exception to our rules, not our new rule.

Dragonlance, care to go troll somewhere else, instead of bashing LAF for a change?

no we aren't accepting them =) we are just testing out PDM's unconventional retal methods only on them.

we enforce our retal policies, but sometimes on a case-by-case basis we feel we can use the retal policies of the other alliance.

between nonpacted alliances, there is no standard for who's retal policies you get to use. imo it's up to the defender to use either their own or the other party's.

if you were in an alliance dragonlance that used funky retal methods, we can either choose to use YOUR OWN policy or we'd use our own. regardless with proper FA channels, i'm sure a happy agreeable medium would be worked out regarding who's to use. now if your FA doesn't contact me, well i'd probably choose the one of the two that best benefits myself ;)

LaF is the only alliance driving players from the game.

Your alliance needs an attitude change.

Hanlong was providing it for a while, but it looks like you guys brow-beat him out of it!:p

^ I disagree wholeheartedly. Also, you can't say my attitude is LAF's typical LAF leader attitude, I only took a leadership role last set, and had never been a leader in LAF prior to that in over a decade of being in and out of the alliance.

no DL :P like i said, i can proudly state that any alliance this reset who talked to me has resolved everything in a peaceful and happy manner where we don't take the bully/take a crap on everyone route.

we even got witnesses ;)

also like i said many times, as a FA officer, i can't offer much help if you don't try to open the door for communications with me =)

We did at the beginning, when it mattered.

As it turned out, it didn't matter.

balin in response to just your third post, havnt read the rest

sure you did message, but it was after you killed 36

so from your point of view you were nice and only killed one

from our point of view you killed one without talking to us, even if he and the other one deserved to die its not exactly conducive to negotiation

negotiation would have been saying something like 'ok our guy hit you but you retalled too much now stop farming him and give him back some of what youve taken'

so while we may have chosen to negotiate at the at point obviously we considered not doing so as well

i obviously don't have the inside klnowledge regarding FA deals to know about that between PDM and LaF:p

I meant members as well LT. Members are possibly worse than leaders.

given currently my limited experience with hanlong he was actually really good.

Not true... I contacted you and asked for what you gave Sanct yet you never addressed that and just waited for your guys to keep hitting us until we hit back...

sanct talked to me first.

you guys topfed our all-x first and sent nukes and spy ops?

you see the difference? ;P we had to retal first =)

funny how no other clan but LaF seems to have issues with PDM. i do not accept your farming of my country, and you are about to get a repeat of the Thatguy response to your actions. I was happy to leave well enough alone until you farmed my country.
How many acres does LaF wish to lose this set?
i can safely say you will lose a hell of a lot more than you are taking from us. You just gave me thhe excuse I have been waiting for.

DL, how many ex players have ever told you they quit playing because laf landgrabed them? For me, zero...
Lots quit due to bots, lots of netgainers quit over being fs'd for no reason, suicided for no reason, etc
Lots of people quit because their favourite alliance quit the game.

Seriously i've never heard of someone quiting over landgrabs its just bs stewed up over AT.

oh and did you just call my unintentional hit a topfeed?
If so, you sir are a freaking moron. i hit the guy at the time because he was near my NW and ridiculously fat in comparison with others around, without double checking our tag relationship, because it was 5am my time and I had just staggered out of bed. i took a single grab, realised my error and messaged your member with an apology and stating that I had asked my FA's to sort it out.

Your order is wrong. I contacted you about it THEN we nuked when it was clear nothing was going on...

he had more land, that is a topfeed

#594 did three grabs on LaF. He did not do any harmful ops on LaF. You retalled like 62 times. We killed the dude who was the most clear cut, an-idiot-would-understand case. You responded by farming us... again.

Not even sure where to go from here. From talking to enshula just now, it seems like PDM may not have even done any harmful ops on you. Crazy stuff, guys.

??seriously???

Yes, seriously.

LAF is not the only alliance that considers that a topfeed PDM IS the only alliance who retals with missiles and considers it appropriate.

god I'm tired