Here's a summary of all of what went on between LaF & PDM this set:

First, about LT's country and the nukes

Feb 17/11 4:47:50 PM SS Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) (LaF) Desert Fox (#141) (Paradigm) 282 A (+356 A)
Feb 17/11 4:46:52 PM PS Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) (LaF)
Tanks for all the Fish (#626) (Paradigm) 355 A (+499 A)
Feb 16/11 5:57:32 PM PS Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) (LaF) Mammonth Plague tank (#284) (Paradigm) 408 A (+490 A)
Feb 16/11 5:56:43 PM PS Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) (LaF) Tank you come again (#57) (Paradigm) 388 A (+478 A)

That was the first attacks LT had done to PDM all set, he abided by our rules of no more than 2 hits per day on a will retal alliance.

His hit on 57 was LaF's first hit of the set on 57
His hit on 284 was LaF's second hit of the set on 284
His hit on 626 was Laf's first hit of the set on 626
His hit on 141 was LaF's second hit of the set on 141
None of those 4 countries had hit LaF yet this set before LT hit them, so none were retalling a retal or overretals

Feb 17/11 9:28:21 PM PS n0mn 0m n0m your tanks (#312) (Paradigm) Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) (LaF) Defence Held

PDM bounced a PS retal on him

Feb 18/11 5:21:52 PM NM Mammonth Plague tank (#284) (Paradigm) Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) (LaF) 1000 A

So one of the 4 countries he hit nukes him

Feb 19/11 4:49:24 PM PS Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) (LaF) Mammonth Plague tank (#284) (Paradigm) 500 A (+597 A)
Feb 19/11 4:49:06 PM PS Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) (LaF) Mammonth Plague tank (#284) (Paradigm) 531 A (+624 A)

LT does 2:1 on the nuke, which is standard

Feb 20/11 6:55:19 AM NM MyTanks vs YourBuildings (#119) (Paradigm) Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) (LaF) 962 A
Feb 20/11 6:54:51 AM NM MyTanks vs YourBuildings (#119) (Paradigm) Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) (LaF) 1013 A
Feb 20/11 6:47:05 AM NM MyTanks vs YourBuildings (#119) (Paradigm) Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) (LaF) 1032 A

He then gets nuked 3 more times.

-----------------------------------------------------------------



That's the case of LT being nuked. Now lets look at all the other LaF-PDM mess




2011-02-19 13:30:34 PS Famiglia La (#13) LaF Seawolf (#224) Paradigm 1104A (1623A)
2011-02-19 04:12:36 PS Seawolf (#224) Paradigm old golden age (#598) LaF 1424A (2100A)
2011-02-18 04:16:11 PS Seawolf (#224) Paradigm Lands of hope (#204) LaF 1107A (1674A)

That was the first instance of LaF retalling a retal. Both of 224's hits were retals.


2011-02-20 05:34:01 PS Not Without My Anus (#594) Paradigm D e a t h B y D a s C C C P (#118) LaF 2045A (3004A)
2011-02-20 05:31:55 SS Not Without My Anus (#594) Paradigm heisenberg (#341) LaF 1440A (2115A)
2011-02-20 05:28:56 SS Not Without My Anus (#594) Paradigm Lewy (#371) LaF 762A (1260A)

A PDM player triple taps LaF, and LaF puts that person on farm to do land:land retals.

594 was hit 11 times within an hour of triple tapping LaF, showing that LaF made no effort to contact PDM before they put 594 on farm. This was also an hour before 119 sent 3 nukes at LT because he didn't accept LT doing 2:1 retals for the first nuke that 119 sent to LT.

2011-02-20 19:29:00 PS The Legendary Deat Sey (#519) LaF Seawolf (#224) Paradigm 358A (697A)
2011-02-20 13:19:15 PS Lands of hope (#204) LaF Seawolf (#224) Paradigm 1481A (2163A)

LaF hits 224 two more times, still retalling a retal on him.


2011-02-20 17:05:26 PS I grow my own (#482) LaF Mammonth Plague tank (#284) Paradigm 1070A (1675A)
2011-02-19 02:07:18 PS Mammonth Plague tank (#284) Paradigm ReDflag (#120) LaF 367A (588A)

284 grabs LaF, and gets retalled.

2011-02-19 16:49:24 PS Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) LaF Mammonth Plague tank (#284) Paradigm 500A (1097A)
2011-02-19 16:49:06 PS Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) LaF Mammonth Plague tank (#284) Paradigm 531A (1155A)
2011-02-18 17:21:52 NM Mammonth Plague tank (#284) Paradigm Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) LaF 1000A

284 was retalled 2:1 for his nuke. Even if the nuke was treated as a LG and not a special attack, LaF is entitled to 3:2 for his 2 attacks, making 482's hit on 284 a legit retal.


2011-02-21 00:19:57 PS Mammonth Plague tank (#284) Paradigm I grow my own (#482) LaF 679A (998A)

284 then retals 482's legit retal.

2011-02-22 02:37:02 SS Mammonth Plague tank (#284) Paradigm I grow my own (#482) LaF 319A (510A)

And then retals that retal again, apparently doing 2:1 thinking that LaF doing 3 hits for a nuke and a landgrab was an overretal.







2011-02-22 23:13:19 PS Reignz n Doll tagged up Eugy (#451) LaF Desert Fox (#141) Paradigm 1578A (2375A)
2011-02-21 04:45:57 PS Desert Fox (#141) Paradigm D e a t h B y D a s C C C P (#118) LaF 614A (1078A

141 retals 118's land:land retals on the person who triple tapped PDM


2011-02-24 11:50:07 PS Reignz n Doll tagged up Eugy (#451) LaF Desert Fox (#141) Paradigm 1114A (1772A)
2011-02-24 11:45:33 PS Reignz n Doll tagged up Eugy (#451) LaF Desert Fox (#141) Paradigm 1870A (2738A)
2011-02-24 05:50:52 PS Desert Fox (#141) Paradigm Reignz n Doll tagged up Eugy (#451) LaF 1404A (2068A

141 then retals that retal, and gets hit back 2:1 for retalling a retal.





2011-02-23 13:45:27 PS If U Cant Beat Em Tank Em (#241) Paradigm tr0utwaffle (#572) LaF 2047A (3458A)
2011-02-23 13:43:14 SS If U Cant Beat Em Tank Em (#241) Paradigm tr0utwaffle (#572) LaF 1398A (2363A)
2011-02-23 13:42:19 SS If U Cant Beat Em Tank Em (#241) Paradigm tr0utwaffle (#572) LaF 1419A (2397A)
2011-02-22 14:23:24 PS tr0utwaffle (#572) LaF If U Cant Beat Em Tank Em (#241) Paradigm 3252A (4433A)
2011-02-21 19:39:25 PS Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) LaF If U Cant Beat Em Tank Em (#241) Paradigm DH
2011-02-21 19:15:26 PS If U Cant Beat Em Tank Em (#241) Paradigm heisenberg (#341) LaF 2810A (5029A)

241 RoRs on LaF. 572 can still do the 2nd hit because 241 did a RoR, so the first bounce doesn't prevent the 2nd hit. 241 then did 3 grabs on 572's legit retal.






2011-02-22 03:22:10 PS Seawolf (#224) Paradigm Lands of hope (#204) LaF 1547A (2282A)
2011-02-22 02:36:01 PS Dont tanks me (#449) Paradigm Lands of hope (#204) LaF 1445A (2128A)
2011-02-20 13:19:15 PS Lands of hope (#204) LaF Seawolf (#224) Paradigm 1481A (2163A)

PDM overretals on 204

2011-02-23 17:38:45 PS Tarnavasaurous Rex (#388) LaF Seawolf (#224) Paradigm 1596A (2354A)
2011-02-23 17:01:46 PS The Legendary Deat Sey (#519) LaF Seawolf (#224) Paradigm DH

LaF does 2:1 which they are allowed to do, even though they bounced the first retal. LaF has made it a habit of bouncing attacks a lot this set, and not bouncing retals much this set. And I have criticized them for it on our forums.






2011-02-23 20:01:22 PS Milk Ocean (#429) LaF Tanks for all the Fish (#626) Paradigm 232A (322A)
2011-02-23 19:57:34 PS Milk Ocean (#429) LaF Tanks for all the Fish (#626) Paradigm 388A (535A)
2011-02-23 19:56:12 PS Milk Ocean (#429) LaF Tanks for all the Fish (#626) Paradigm 377A (619A)
2011-02-23 00:47:12 PS Tanks for all the Fish (#626) Paradigm Milk Ocean (#429) LaF 1302A (1916A)
2011-02-22 20:44:28 PS Milk Ocean (#429) LaF Tanks for all the Fish (#626) Paradigm 314A (505A)
2011-02-22 20:43:35 PS Milk Ocean (#429) LaF Tanks for all the Fish (#626) Paradigm 434A (768A)
2011-02-22 20:42:32 PS Milk Ocean (#429) LaF Tanks for all the Fish (#626) Paradigm 475A (834A)
2011-02-22 20:42:07 PS Milk Ocean (#429) LaF Tanks for all the Fish (#626) Paradigm 517A (904A)
2011-02-22 01:04:46 PS Tanks for all the Fish (#626) Paradigm Dante Inferno (#93) LaF 2148A (3225A)

PDM grabs Laf, and LaF retals land:land and the PDM country then retals that retal and gets hit back some more.





2011-02-24 13:56:07 PS Lands of hope (#204) LaF Dont tanks me (#449) Paradigm 2081A (3030A)

204 hits 449 again, after 449 retalled 204 the first time. 204 is retalling a retal for a RoR (204 is in the wrong, basically).





2011-02-24 17:58:46 PS My allies are untagged (#379) LaF If U Cant Beat Em Tank Em (#241) Paradigm 1315A (2102A)

379 retalled an overretal by 241 (taking 3:1 on a RoR)

2011-02-25 16:11:06 PS If U Cant Beat Em Tank Em (#241) Paradigm My allies are untagged (#379) LaF 1939A (3465A)

241 then retalled that retal







2011-02-25 21:14:33 SS Not Without My Anus (#594) Paradigm Vacationing In Europe (#36) LaF DH
2011-02-25 21:13:43 SS Not Without My Anus (#594) Paradigm Vacationing In Europe (#36) LaF 862A (1267A)
2011-02-25 21:12:54 SS Not Without My Anus (#594) Paradigm Vacationing In Europe (#36) LaF 936A (1376A)

594 then triples tap RoRs on 36 who was doing L:L retals for 594's earlier triple tap








2011-02-25 03:55:13 PS Dont tanks me (#449) Paradigm Vacationing In Europe (#36) LaF 2520A (3635A)
2011-02-24 03:34:58 PS Vacationing In Europe (#36) LaF Not Without My Anus (#594) Paradigm 400A (857A)
2011-02-24 03:34:39 SS Vacationing In Europe (#36) LaF Not Without My Anus (#594) Paradigm DH

36 bounced an attack on 594, so the L:L retals are done, and then he hits again, making it an overretal, which 449 retals

2011-02-26 11:57:25 PS Vacationing In Europe (#36) LaF Dont tanks me (#449) Paradigm 2667A (3712A)

Hanlong then retals 449's retal for 36's overretal (continuing to do L:L after a bounce)

2011-02-26 22:33:16 GS Mammonth Plague tank (#284) Paradigm Vacationing In Europe (#36) LaF 4735C 0 F
2011-02-26 16:19:16 PS Not Without My Anus (#594) Paradigm Vacationing In Europe (#36) LaF 1439A (1733A)
2011-02-26 16:15:42 SS Not Without My Anus (#594) Paradigm Vacationing In Europe (#36) LaF 1021A (1354A)
2011-02-26 16:13:21 SS Not Without My Anus (#594) Paradigm Vacationing In Europe (#36) LaF 1092A (1447A)
2011-02-26 12:15:49 PS Vacationing In Europe (#36) LaF Not Without My Anus (#594) Paradigm 428A (526A)
2011-02-26 12:15:47 PS Vacationing In Europe (#36) LaF Not Without My Anus (#594) Paradigm 430A (580A)
2011-02-26 12:14:40 PS Vacationing In Europe (#36) LaF Not Without My Anus (#594)

Good god Rockman, you have way too much time on your hands to be doing this much copy/pasting :P

119 versus 388
PDM was in the wrong, used nukes (PDM 1, LaF 0)

284 versus 388
PDM was in the wrong, used nukes, RoR'd (PDM 2, LaF 0)

13,519, and 204 all RoR'd on 224
LaF was in the wrong all 3 times (PDM 2, LaF 3)

594 versus LaF
Both alliances are in the wrong, PDM for triple tapping and not accepting land:land, LaF for doing 11 hits within an hour of the triple tap and not contacting before doing land:land. (PDM 3, LaF 4)

284 versus LaF
PDM in the wrong, used nuke as retal, then RoR'd, and then after LaF retalled the RoR, 284 RoR'd again (PDM 4, LaF 4)

141 versus 118
PDM RoR'd (PDM 5, LaF 4)

141 versus 451
PDM RoR'd, 451 retalled, and 141 RoR'd on him again (PDM 7, LaF 4)

241 versus 572
PDM RoR'd (PDM 8, LaF 4)

224 and 449 versus 204
PDM overretalled, but 224's hit was the overretal, 449's hit is allowed (PDM 9, LaF 4)

204 versus 449
LaF player got overretalled, but retalled the 1st hit on him, not the 2nd. The LaF player RoR'd. (PDM 9, LaF 5)

626 versus 429
PDM RoR'd land:land retals (PDM 10, LaF 5)

241 versus 379
PDM RoR'd. LaF's player was retalling an overretal (PDM did 3:1 instead of the 2:1 allowed). (PDM 11, LaF 5)

594 versus 36
PDM RoR'd on LaF's land:land retals on 594.
LaF then continued to do land:land after a bounce. (PDM 12, LaF 6)

36 versus 449
LaF RoR'd (PDM 12, LaF 7)

594 versus 36
594 overretalled by doing 4:1 for just 1 overretal (PDM 13, LaF 7)
36's hits back on 594 were then justified


I find 13 instances where PDM screwed up, and 7 where LaF screwed up. Basically, both alliances made a lot of mistakes. I put the running tally of each alliance's mistakes in parentheses.

You can argue about the severity of each alliance's mistakes, and LaF did a lot more grabs on PDM (which are allowed and not a mistake), but its clear that both alliances are at fault here.

I'm at work on a lunch break.

You were wrong 7 times by your own policy? I don't have the energy to figure out how many times you guys were wrong by our policy but as far as I know PDM was always consistent with our own policy.

Thats because pdm's policy is do what ever the fluff you want, we're just a suicide tag anyway.

Rockman, lol, lunch break well spent then :P

I am just cracking jokes of some sort on all of these LAF sucks/PDM sucks thread, we are already at each others throats and dont need to keep pissing in each others cereal :P

And really as soon as pdm started using nuke retals, policies go out the window, its an act of war.

5 times we retalled a retal (each attack counted as a separate screwup on our part).
1 time we did land:land and did 11 attacks on a country less than an hour after it triple tapped us - our mistake was not contacting PDM before doing the land:land retals which we should have done anyways.
1 time we overretalled by doing 1 more hit in land:land retals after bouncing a hit. By all policies that I've seen, land:land retals are over when you bounce.

Those were our 7 mistakes - 6 attacks that were a RoR or an overretal, and once for doing land:land without talking to PDM first.

PDM's mistakes I think were much greater than 6 attacks and doing land:land without contacting the other alliance.

Still, we're not without fault.

I dont think rockman had to do too much, enshula has been tabulating everything on a mid-level board since near the beginning.

I find it interesting that none of the laf leaders have been pointing out that laf has had pdm on dnh with a "retal only" tag on them for over a week, so exchanges since then have pretty much entirely been instigated by pdm

"2011-02-20 19:29:00 PS The Legendary Deat Sey (#519) LaF Seawolf (#224) Paradigm 358A (697A)
2011-02-20 13:19:15 PS Lands of hope (#204) LaF Seawolf (#224) Paradigm 1481A (2163A)

LaF hits 224 two more times, still retalling a retal on him."

these hits wernt ror's under our policy because 24 hours had passed since the retal

Ah, my mistake then. That might be a cause of some disagreements between FAs then if you give someone only a 24 hour window after doing a retal before they can be attacked again. I had thought we allowed a 48 hour window, and I'm guessing that PDM expects a 48 hour window to be given.

And as someone who is anti-bully (and not happy with Laf's bullying), I think we should change our policy and give countries a 48 hour window after doing a retal.

"2011-02-24 13:56:07 PS Lands of hope (#204) LaF Dont tanks me (#449) Paradigm 2081A (3030A)

204 hits 449 again, after 449 retalled 204 the first time. 204 is retalling a retal for a RoR (204 is in the wrong, basically)."

this one was also not a ror because it was outside 24 hours

Nice, thanks for putting that all together. Wish I had the time to independently verify but since it's all news stuff I'll assume it's accurate.

Still need to go through and try to follow it all more carefully (not sure if it's even worth doing at this point), but I agree in your final assessment that both clans screwed up.

A few thoughts off the cuff,

1) Interesting that your rule of 2 hits/day seems to apply only to a gametime calendar day and not a 24-hr period. So you could do two hits at 11:59:59 and another two at 12:00:01 and that would be fair per your rules. Also interesting that there's no policy addressing total number of hits your tag can do on an alliance in a day, since it speaks to the same idea as your 2 hits/country/day rule.

2) Your tally of each alliance's mistakes is based solely on LaF policy and cannot weigh aggression/hostility objectively. If we were to do the same list of mistakes with the same dataset based only on our policy the outcome would be different. Essentially you're just arguing for your policy, so 'mistakes' is purely subjective.
- I think one of PDM's main arguments has been that from the outset LaF's intention seemed to be, as in previous sets, to step on PDM without regard. We took the 17 hits in 24 hours as a very aggressive action conveying your intention to bully us.

***3) Since you took the time to outline retals by the letter of the law, you should have included the wealth of overretals performed on #594 resulting from LaF putting him on farm. This also completely voids your argument about #594 RoRing #36, since #594 was already overretalled (you had already taken double L:L) AND #36's 'retals' fell outside of the retal window. This is very clear-cut and I'm surprised you missed it. It voids like the last half of your post.***

4) Didn't realize #36 was hanlong, that's kind of poetic.

5) If you adjust for your mistakes on #594, including the additional farming by other tagged LaFers + RoRs performed on him, your 'mistakes' tally should be adjusted dramatically.

6) The sequence of events clearly shows LaF as the aggressor both from the initial farming and the awful way you handled #594. I think you're acknowledging that you didn't have a right to put him on farm, and didn't even attempt to talk to us about it. Funny also that half your argument for being so aggressive all set was that we didn't contact you enough, when half of your mistakes resulted from not contacting us and just doing whatever the hell you wanted with #594.

maybe, i think what we need to change first is our policy on multiple hits which would trigger l:l as well as ror's and overretals

all of those situations should escalate more

take the 594 stuff, it was about 120% l:l before the 2 people who got hit took some retals then it was 220%

assume for a moment the 3 tap didnt deserve farm, then how much more than 80% does 3 deserve?

and im not sure but maybe those ror windows change other stuff down the line

anyway i started at the beginning and from my count on the first 284 nuke and grab, he was owed 3 for the nuke, then 2 for the grab because it was a second attack

of which we only did 2

then the 5 missiles all of them were actually ror's none of which we took retals on, perhaps missile ror's should be 4 instead of 3 hits by our policy

I mean, you can tabulate up the number of times you 'could have retalled and didn't' and I could do the same. Feel like that has no bearing.

#594 was an absolute mess. Essentially you took ~200% L:L (estimate) on three grabs. Then #36, #443, and #379 all farmed him outside of the retal window.

Don't really see how you could possibly spin that other than admitting that you majorly goofed up. That's why we killed #36, the most clear-cut violator. Then you mass farmed us... again...

****I would like to point out for anyone who thinks I'm a bully, according to Rockman I was never in the wrong as per LAF policy(which I know is true) however PDM wronged my country by NM retalling me 4x, and I actually didn't retal those and tried to wait for FR's to work it out.


PDM you big bullies!

balin

1) no its per 24 hours, but its to limit liability on our countries so they dont lose a whole lot of land more than anything, its not a 'we will give reps if we break it' type of rule its an internal punishment thing

2) last time i checked it was 17 hits in 34 hours, but it probably still feels like a lot

3) 594 is bad, i thought you had ok'd farming him so wasnt hassling people that hit him, though he was accidentally on WR rather than DNH which led to some hits, our guys stole retals from our own members to some extent probably going crazy because that guy was farming everyone, then the guys who got hit came on later and did l:l and it added up to 220% l:l, which isnt completely crazy for 3 hits, and neither is farm, but its definately on the harsh side, its weird though that neither side talked to eachother about 594, and when you finally did want to talk it was after you killed 36 which obviously wasnt our favourite thing to happen and was a bit like saying 'ok now were kind of happy now lets talk'

6) a lot of the aggressor thing from lafs side is because we chose to let something along the lines of 18-23 retals go involving missiles, possibly trying to contact you, possibly just not wanting to have the situation escalate, obviously though when you lose a country its not something that can be fixed and worrying about escalation changes

lol LT, you didn't even follow LaF's policy, unless LaF's policy is to be interpreted the way I outlined it point #1 above, in which case it's a pretty nub policy :P

Even if it's per 24hrs I missed it by an hour. Sue me :-p You guys NMd me because you couldn't break ;-)

enshula

1) fair enough, just saying then that LT did in fact break your policy, so it's spin to make a point of saying he was acting within your own rules

2) I tallied it up when you first did it and it was 24 hrs, though I could be wrong.

3) You made a mistake. You did not talk to us before putting him on farm and you took too much land. Still, we did not retal. Then he was farmed another 12 times after the window expired. The kill we did was justified by any clan's policy. You have undeniably shown us no respect, why would we contact you and let hanlong buy up before killing him?

6) We killed 36, laid out the reasoning in simple terms. To this day you've said nothing to rebutt our reasoning. We were within our rights to kill 379 as well, but instead I made a very respectful and reasonable appeal to you and hanlong in attempt to make it stop. Instead, you did not reply and you farmed us.

That doesn't explain why we did 11 hits within an hour of 594 hitting us. The people grabbing him within an hour of his hit clearly new PDM had not authorized the farming as retal.

Oh, and I noticed that my first post left out #119's missiles on 443, because I had thought I included them in with his 3 missiles on 388 that he sent at the same time when I had not.

The 2 hits per tag per day is based on 24 hours, not the calendar day, as such LT did in fact break our rules by hitting an hour or so early.

He has no ground for arguing otherwise

No I definitely noticed that later, just logged in earlier than the day before I guess ;-)

rockman i didnt mean the first 11 hits, i meant the hits after 118 hit

omg i love you rockman, but that post was too long =)

too much news makes my head hurt

Damn rockman. You were kidding about being bored.

Rockman, no comment on your omissions and misrepresentations regarding 594? Seems like the lynch pin in our disagreements at this point. If you agree with our view of 594 then the kill on 36 was justified and you were out of line in your mass farming response.

that's crazy!

Actually, my view is that L:L on 594 was justified, but that LaF should have contacted PDM before farming him, and PDM should have contacted LaF before retalling the farming. As I said before, both alliances screwed up.

I agree that L:L on 594 was justified. You took way more than L:L. And you did it outside of your 48-hr retal window. Do you have a separate window for L:L?

(This is ignoring our policy of only allowing country-to-country hits for L:L)

From your posted policy:

"48 Hour Retal Policy. Regardless of the number of valid retals, all retals are required to be performed within 48 hours (2 days) of the initial attack made by the opposite party."

definitely an interesting breakdown of events!

thanks rockman

What I originally said was:



What did I omit or misrepresent? I state that LaF put the target on farm to do land:land retals without contacting PDM, and that such action was before a PDMer sent 5 nukes at LaF but after the first nuke was thrown at LaF.

The killing of 36 was very clearly NOT justified because you made no effort to contact LaF before killing. Killing is a far more damaging step than killing. If farming was out of line, reps can be paid fairly easily, but if a kill was done inappropriately, the reps are far more expensive. LaF's farming as retaliation without contacting PDM is not nearly as bad as PDM killing in response to that farming.

Both alliances should have contacted each other and did not.

You misrepresented the above. 594 could not have been RoRing because the retal window had expired for 36 and L:L was already overretalled anyway. Everything you said after that point is misrepresented as well.

tmi.

You also omitted all the hits 379 did on 594 after L:L was fulfilled and the retal window expired.

it's tmi but it's supremely relevant. :P

Feb 20/11 5:34:01 AM is the timestamp on the last grab that 594 did. In the 48 hrs that followed you took like double L:L.

Feb 22/11 11:18:53 PM is the timestamp that hanlong did an additional 7 hits on 594.

Ah, that is correct. I didn't notice that the hits kept going after the 48 hour mark. That makes 594's retals on 36 legit, and not RoRs.

That also makes 379 doing 8 hits (excessive farming) on PDM.
Also makes 36 doing 5 hits on PDM
And 36 didn't overretal, he just RoR'd 4x instead of overretalling once.

I don't know what the percentage land:land due on a triple tap is, so that will determine whether or not 341 and 118 overretalled.



Apparently, the 3 hits triggered the clause in LaF's policy stating:
Enemy Listing. In the event a country has dealt LaF too much damage in an extremely short amount of time, it will be placed on the enemy list instead (Kill, Cripple, Farm or Retal).

Those 3 hits should not have triggered that, but given that two PDMers had nuked LaF and LT and others were under the impression that PDM was ignoring us, I think thats why the country was placed on farm.

As I said before, LaF screwed up. PDM screwed up as well, though. Moreso, since they killed rather than farm.

You wanna come to my office and be bored, big fella? Please?

I'd say your initial 17 in 24 hrs, by your own policy, merits crippling. Instead of that, we sent a few nukes :P

Thanks for acknowledging my point about 594. Total agreement that we both screwed up, just getting fed up with LaF's insistence that we brought this upon ourselves. You were at least an equal part of the problem, I would assert you were the majority of the problem. :)

tl;dr

LaF's policy is if any COUNTRY does too much damage in a short amount of time. The 17 hits were from many different countries, not one country.

Until alliances start including a clause in their policy about how many hits from one tag to another are allowed before it is excessive, then the 17 hits need to all be treated like single taps and double taps.

And I am in favor of putting clauses in a policy such as more than 12 hits per 24 hours means that any country hit can retal country:alliance, or something to that effect.

But as of right now, neither PDM nor Laf has anything in their policies about how many hits from alliance to alliance are allowed in 24 hours.

And yes, we did screw up on 594. But as the news I posted shows, PDM did screw up many many times. LaF, if 24 hours is allowed as the RoR window, screwed up on farming 594, and for 3 RoRs. PDM screwed up on many other instances. Of the 13 I counted, that is decreased to just 11 if the 48 hour retal window is used.

We already established that LT did 4 hits in 24 hrs, which is greater than the 3 hits 594 did. You responded with like 60+ grabs, we responded with a half dozen nukes. Both meet your policy's criteria in the same way. ;)

enshula, I'll PM you to see where we can go from here.

PDM is either stalling for a FS, sick of fighting LaF, and/or showing tremendous constraint. Because I would have FSed by now.

Honestly, constraint. Though we are ABing them in true PDM style ;)

We suck at traditional warchats due to low # of players across many timezones. LaF would obviously wipe the floor with us after farming us and still get t10 finishes. We have nothing to gain from that outcome.

Hopefully we've at least proven the point that LaF can't step on us every set without consequences.

I thank Rockman for the detailed outline of how LaF is at least equally responsible for the escalation this set and hope that quells the spin that PDM is just belligerent.

We're fluffing belligerent when provoked, but we're not idiots or unreasonable.

Just a neutral observer here, but doesn't this set the precedent that the way to get lots of land and finish high is to farm the fluff out of PDM? As it stands right now, with the amount of land Laf gained from this exchange, they are set to shatter NW records if they played it right. I count at least 5 Laf countries that can finish over 200M NW easily if they knew how to play. Even the country that you guys AB'ed could probably rebuild as a farmer and finish top 50 easily.