ANW Race / Top 10 Cutoff? - Earth Empires Forum

hanlong

Member
2211

Jun 2nd 2011, 19:00:31

i wished this thread didn't need to degenerate into another evo vs LaF thread, but like clockwork it happened.

like i said, evo probably won ANW it looks like and it's going to be close. we should take 6 top 10s tho, and evo probably takes 3-4 or so.

i just wish we would stay on topic about this reset instead of past resets, especially considering i wasn't even around in those resets so i'm annoyed i'm being left out! ;)

Don Hanlong
Don of La Famiglia

Tertius

Member

EE Patron
1488

Jun 2nd 2011, 19:04:46

@H4, you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble in writing out a big explanation that has nothing to do with anything if you had read the part that Corfu even capitalized:

Originally posted by Corfu:

To me, what the average NW title is about is the caliber of the typical member in the alliance ASSUMING they are active.

He even specifically said that it doesn't matter what NW a player gets, as long as they are ACTIVE. You can look at country numbers to see that we have late starters as well, and they will finish with whatever NW they get. So for EVO our ANW will always be for the members that were active. Yank's computer died and he was gone for a month, but he just came back and is active now, and that's what is important. He too will be counted with whatever NW he can achieve.

So I'm sorry, I see what you are trying to say, but unfortunately you[sic] argument just doesn't hold any water.

SolidSnake

Member
867

Jun 2nd 2011, 19:04:50

Originally posted by Corfu:

To address some of the concerns about Evo:

(1) Evo has detagged 5 members this reset. Two came early in the reset for being inactive (which most alliances don't have a problem with IMO). I do agree with you that we dropped 3 of our inactives too late in the reset. We are working on implementing better policy to drop inactives at least 2 weeks prior to the end of the reset.

(2) The intra-farming late was not authorized by EVO leaders and the offending member was spoken to about his actions. We don't condone what happened.

(3) If you'll notice, however, that we don't drop our Members that are active but may bring out average networth down. To me, what the average NW title is about is the caliber of the typical member in the alliance ASSUMING they are active. We won't drop our worst 5 players simply to win an ANW title if they are trying their best and playing their countries.

* * *

Anyway - I think the ANW title will be much closer than I anticipated. And I'm a little disappointed in Omega's showing - I thought they would put up more of a battle; I'm always impressed by their all-explore countries.

And does look like LaF will have 6 in the top 10 - dang nice showing!

Just fyi point 1: two of the countries that were detagged logged in after being detagged, and one of them had logged on 5 days before being detagged. That's not "inactive" thats dropping countries to win anw.

point 2: you're telling me you have random loose cannons in evo that go around farming other evo'ers but only ones about to be dumped from the tag? uh ok fred.

point 3: pretty much addressed in point one.

And this isn't an attempt to troll you or anything, i have no problem with you, i'm sure you're only going off what you were told, but evo leaders are complete hypocrites.

H4xOr WaNgEr

Forum Moderator
1932

Jun 2nd 2011, 19:10:33

Tertius: if you bothered to actually thoroughly read my post you'd realise that I fully address the issue of ACTIVITY as a basis for dropping members within said post.

But thanks for your input regardless.

H4xOr WaNgEr

Forum Moderator
1932

Jun 2nd 2011, 19:16:30

If what SS is saying is true, then my arguments about the activity argument aren't even necessary as activity would thus be proven not to be the cause afterall.

anoniem

Member
2881

Jun 2nd 2011, 19:19:01

I'm intrigued as to where I have 'bragged' about Evolution's prowess as an alliance? If you're going to make things up then at least try to be imaginative.

Solidsnake, turns any harmless thread into a war of words, irrespective of the topic or context. If there was a thread about the weather he'd bring Evolution into it.

If you don't want me to post about La Famiglia then I suggest you keep your disparaging remarks about Evolution to yourself. It's actually quite pathetic how highly you think of yourselves and what's more, it's embarrassing how you always seem to know best and believe that everybody else should live up to your high and exacting standards.

It's funny how you can interpret things differently when it suits you.

Ignorant me.

re(ally)tired

anoniem

Member
2881

Jun 2nd 2011, 19:20:57

Corfu and Tertius forget about it.

Even if we didn't drop members due to inactivity what the hell does it have to do with LaF? Let them have the "moral" high-ground. It's a text-based game. Kudos to them - this is going to look great on their respective CVs.

re(ally)tired

anoniem

Member
2881

Jun 2nd 2011, 19:24:26

Dear Solidsnake,

Corfu is a HEAD in Evo and Tertius is an Assistant HEAD, so I'm pretty sure they're not the ignorant little members you're passing them off to be.

re(ally)tired

highrock

Member
564

Jun 2nd 2011, 19:26:18

Originally posted by Revolver:

Originally posted by highrock:

i don't think there are 10 players capable of hitting 200M NW in this environment...

Actually, maybe you are not, but I can tell you approximately 10 names that can hit 250 M NW without that much problems.

p.s. i'm actually 1 of only 3 people in EE so far who have hit 250M NW without aid, so both parts of your statement are incorrect.

sorry to break up the evo/laf lovefest with a snarky comment. omega is better than both. discuss.

formerly Viola MD

BobbyATA

Member
2367

Jun 2nd 2011, 19:35:17

@ H4: it has nothing to do with ANW, I'm just trying to make sure we all stay honest here..

Edited to add: This is in reference to your post on

Jun 2nd 2011, 16:24:55

which begins

"We haven't aided people into the top 10 in ages, and when we did, it had no impact on our ANW or TNW (or no positive impact at least)."

Edited By: BobbyATA on Jun 2nd 2011, 19:39:10
See Original Post

locket

Member
6176

Jun 2nd 2011, 19:38:08

Anomiem you changed your story pretty quick ;) Detagging semi-actives= lose. You just know you couldn't compete with us since we are clearly the best netters who landgrab excessively around ;)

SolidSnake

Member
867

Jun 2nd 2011, 19:38:22

Originally posted by anoniem:

Solidsnake, turns any harmless thread into a war of words, irrespective of the topic or context. If there was a thread about the weather he'd bring Evolution into it.

Really?

Originally posted by SolidSnake:

Originally posted by NukEvil:

I got impatient and blew most of my stock on public almost 2 weeks ago...

to be fair, your stock was likely no more $32.4m

Originally posted by anoniem:

tbf to nukevil you're an arsehole.

Originally posted by SolidSnake:

Originally posted by anoniem:

tbf to nukevil you're an arsehole.

lul why so mad?

I really started this? i made an obvious joke with regards to nukevil's netgaining prowess and you go nuts. Dont get me wrong I proudly accept alot of the blame for any laf/evo hostilities, but you seem to think that you can rag on whoever you like, netgain however illegitimately as you like, and think you wont get called out on it. And when you do get called out on it, attack LaF because you know any defense you could use is hypocritical.

Havoc

Member
4039

Jun 2nd 2011, 19:42:16

Do you guys see why the rest of the server mocks you?:P jesus

Havoc
Unholy Monks | The Omega

SolidSnake

Member
867

Jun 2nd 2011, 19:42:36

Originally posted by BobbyATA:

@ H4: it has nothing to do with ANW, I'm just trying to make sure we all stay honest here..

while we're staying honest bobby, perhaps evo would like to disclose how many bushels they've aided KJ in the last two weeks? it's over 250m, but it would be interesting to have an exact figure.

locket

Member
6176

Jun 2nd 2011, 19:46:39

Originally posted by Havoc:

Do you guys see why the rest of the server mocks you?:P jesus

Oh we know... we know...

And SS I think it was over 9000!....I'm a nerd...

highrock

Member
564

Jun 2nd 2011, 19:48:50

Originally posted by SolidSnake:

Originally posted by BobbyATA:

@ H4: it has nothing to do with ANW, I'm just trying to make sure we all stay honest here..

while we're staying honest bobby, perhaps evo would like to disclose how many bushels they've aided KJ in the last two weeks? it's over 250m, but it would be interesting to have an exact figure.

if this is true, evo is very naughty.

formerly Viola MD

Havoc

Member
4039

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:01:39

Originally posted by H4xOr WaNgEr:

If you truely feel that ANW should represent the "average" or "typical" member, then I suggest changing our ANW measurement from using the mean, to using the median.

Switching from the mean to the median is something I've argued in favour of for some time. Slag and I even had a discussion and a did a brief analysis together on what the expected outcome of such a change would be.

I made the recommendation to move to a median because it would be a better reflection of exactly what you are talking about. I made this recommendation knowing very well that it would, on average, negatively impact LaF's average NW moreso than Evo's (as LaF tends to have a lot more positive outlier countries pulling up our ANW than Evo does).

Out of curiosity/boredom I decided to calc Omega's ANW if using median vs the standard mean calculation from our last couple netting sets:

5th round:
Avg with mean = $91,850,338
Avg with median = $89,111,100
Difference = -$2,700,000

6th round:
Avg with mean = $95,443,436
Avg with median = $102,500,000 (rounded)
Difference = +$7,000,000

7th round:
Avg with mean = 107,165,671
Avg with median = $94,500,00
Difference = -$13,000,000

8th round:
Avg with mean = $109,994,750
Avg with median = $117,000,000
Difference = +7,000,000

Interesting how much it shifted up and down..

Havoc
Unholy Monks | The Omega

qzjul

Administrator
Game Development
10,263

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:05:21

Originally posted by Havoc:

Do a comparison of evo laf and omega ? :)

Finally did the signature thing.

Havoc

Member
4039

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:06:21

I'm not THAT bored:p

Havoc
Unholy Monks | The Omega

NukEvil

Member
4327

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:07:14

Originally posted by SolidSnake:

Originally posted by BobbyATA:

@ H4: it has nothing to do with ANW, I'm just trying to make sure we all stay honest here..

while we're staying honest bobby, perhaps evo would like to disclose how many bushels they've aided KJ in the last two weeks? it's over 250m, but it would be interesting to have an exact figure.

I'd also like to know how many bushels Evo has aided KJ...

I am a troll. Everything I say must be assumed to be said solely to provoke an exaggerated reaction to the current topic. I fully intend to bring absolutely no substance to any discussion, ongoing or otherwise. Conversing with me is pointless.

H4xOr WaNgEr

Forum Moderator
1932

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:07:18

Anon: You may not be the biggest instigator of what I am referring to (that would be Nuke, although interestingly enough he is one of the least advisarial posters on this thread so far. Kudos to him for that), but to say you never do it? Come on...

Highrock: It is absolutely true, we have the evidence.

Once again, we don't care that you do these things, we care about your hypocracy. Whenever LaF does do something Evo cries at great lengths (look at the Downsay example provided above), but when Evo is called out for doing far more substancial things, they cry once again. So I guess from this we should just assume that Evo can do no wrong regardless of what action they take? And the rest of us are in the wrong whenever our actions negatively impact you?

That is the understanding we've come to when it comes to Evo's stance on these issues. THAT is what our issue is with, not with the actual committing of the acts.

highrock

Member
564

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:07:58

Originally posted by Havoc:

Originally posted by H4xOr WaNgEr:

that 7th round difference is probably because of me =)

formerly Viola MD

anoniem

Member
2881

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:09:01

SS:
http://www.evolution2025.com

click apply.

you can talk about evolution all day everyday insite. clearly, you're dissatisfied with your own alliance.

re(ally)tired

Havoc

Member
4039

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:09:43

Originally posted by highrock:

that 7th round difference is probably because of me =)

Dragging it down? Yes, definitely;)

Havoc
Unholy Monks | The Omega

91

New Member
3

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:11:28

anybody with a calculator and half a brain can play this game properly. those with the most time have the upper hand. why fight? why fight?

alright EE give me the 4 points for my PCI boom

H4xOr WaNgEr

Forum Moderator
1932

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:12:27

As I said, Slag and I already did an analysis of this. We checked how all allainces ANW would change over multiple resets.

I was actually surprised by the variation in the results as well, I didn't expect it to be as dramatic as it was. However, I still feel the median is a more appropriate measure, and I still feel my point regarding your selection bias based on "activity" is valid :P If you cut people for being too inactive to adequetely reflect your "average member" then why aren't you cutting countries that were "too active" to be considered a representation of your typical member?

bakku

Member
336

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:14:24

i just had a cash shortage and lost 10m nw. you're welcome evo!

NukEvil

Member
4327

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:14:29

If we changed ANW to being the median instead of the mean, wouldn't the exact same thing happen in an alliance that drops low members at end of set, albeit with slightly less effect?

locket

Member
6176

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:16:13

would a simpler way to fix it simply be to not allow detagging in finals 2 weeks unless the person has done more then 2-3 harmful attacks or somesuch

hanlong

Member
2211

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:16:56

lol

if 10M nw was the difference between us winning ANW im going to kill you bakku!

Don Hanlong
Don of La Famiglia

highrock

Member
564

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:17:21

Originally posted by bakku:

i just had a cash shortage and lost 10m nw. you're welcome evo!

noob

formerly Viola MD

NukEvil

Member
4327

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:18:09

Originally posted by locket:

would a simpler way to fix it simply be to not allow detagging in finals 2 weeks unless the person has done more then 2-3 harmful attacks or somesuch

I think that should be best left up to the community. Just think, if we had that in place this set, how utterly boring this thread would be...

anoniem

Member
2881

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:20:30

The fact is, in reality, you know nothing.

I don't think being active by playing your countries every few days and not logging into your alliance's website for 2 weeks counts as active.

But what do I know? I'm just a fool with access to evolution boards.

re(ally)tired

SolidSnake

Member
867

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:20:35

Originally posted by locket:

would a simpler way to fix it simply be to not allow detagging in finals 2 weeks unless the person has done more then 2-3 harmful attacks or somesuch

actually the simple approach is the one that has been used for a decade, no detagging at all.

Corfu

Member
60

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:21:19

H4xOr WaNgEr - I'm not a statistics person, so I can't really argue what you were saying about using Median vs. a Mean. I suppose my point was more towards measuring the netting abilities of active countries versus inactive countries.

I think it would be cool to have another way to measure netting prowess of an alliance and add a "Median Country" level.

SS - to your point #1, we can agree to disagree what "inactive" means. Like I said, if the person is playing their country and wants to finish the reset, EVO let's them do that, even if their country isn't where we want it. If the person isn't playing and doesn't want to finish the reset, then we detag.

H4xOr WaNgEr

Forum Moderator
1932

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:22:17

Nukevil: you are absolutely right that changing the way we measure ANW wouldn't act as much of a disincentive to dropping members.

It would be a more accurate reflection of how the "average" member of your alliance performs though.

NukEvil

Member
4327

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:27:12

Ahh, so if we have a bunch of countries at, say, $100m+ NW, and one country that was, say, $1m NW, wouldn't the median NOT be a very good way to measure an overall alliance's ANW performance?

anoniem

Member
2881

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:28:04

Median doesn't represent the average member - to even think that it does is farcical.

re(ally)tired

H4xOr WaNgEr

Forum Moderator
1932

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:29:41

I would argue it would be better, because with the mean that 1M NW country is dragging your ANW down by as much as 2M NW.

Where with the median, a single low NW country might only decrease your ANW by a couple hundred K.

The effects will vary depending on the distribution of your countries in any given reset. But on average, the median is less affected by outliers both on the positive and negative end of the spectrum.

locket

Member
6176

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:30:09

Originally posted by anoniem:

You realize that the person in question was playing the country by your own words... you could message them ingame -_- Not sure if this was hypothetical or not but it stands either way

highrock

Member
564

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:31:22

Originally posted by anoniem:

Median doesn't represent the average member - to even think that it does is farcical.

median is just another measure of central tendency (just like the mean) that is more robust to outliers than the mean. so a couple of really high or really low NW countries won't affect the median as it would the mean. the median is probably as good if not better than the mean in measuring the typical member.

formerly Viola MD

H4xOr WaNgEr

Forum Moderator
1932

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:34:50

*agrees with highrock*

I dont know what Anon is talking about, but he is way out in left field. I can only assume he doesn't have much knowledge of theoretical or applied statistics.

SolidSnake

Member
867

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:36:52

Originally posted by Corfu:

SS - to your point #1, we can agree to disagree what "inactive" means. Like I said, if the person is playing their country and wants to finish the reset, EVO let's them do that, even if their country isn't where we want it. If the person isn't playing and doesn't want to finish the reset, then we detag.

Tbh there is a big difference between wanting to finish the reset and being inactive, ds detagged himself because he hadnt logged on in weeks and wasnt playing, we tagged him back up (losing anw because of his country). He didnt want to play, but evo screamed blue murder about him detagging, because a: he logged on, and b: it was the end of the reset.

Evo detagged 3 active countries, lots of players who see that they are hurting their alliances anw will see it as the helpful thing to do, to detag. It's the alliances obligation not to let them, or risk being labeled hypocrites/illegitimate in the anw race. Fact is evo detagged countries to win anw, there isn't really any other way to put it.

And look, i've been around for long enough that losing anw titles to people that detag countries end of reset is hardly a new thing, i guess its kinda good that people still care enough to pull that kind of stunt. I just find it funny how evo have a completely different theory on "moral netgaining" when the shoe is on the other foot.

anoniem

Member
2881

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:44:20

Obligations, morals etc.

All very stale subject matter. This thread is extremely dull, so you can continue to infer and twist all you like.

Bye.

re(ally)tired

Ozzite

Member
2122

Jun 2nd 2011, 20:48:09

laf cheats

Ah, mercury. Sweetest of the transition metals.

hanlong

Member
2211

Jun 2nd 2011, 21:03:26

most people use medians instead of averages because it's a better indicator of what you are looking for (how well the the average guy does).

if you see housing prices, salaries, etc. they always use median because like a fat mansion or a multi-millionaire really screws those figures up.

median is were the bulk of the homes/salaries (and in this case, member nw) is at...

Don Hanlong
Don of La Famiglia

hanlong

Member
2211

Jun 2nd 2011, 21:07:31

Originally posted by highrock:

Originally posted by Revolver:

Originally posted by highrock:

i don't think there are 10 players capable of hitting 200M NW in this environment...

Actually, maybe you are not, but I can tell you approximately 10 names that can hit 250 M NW without that much problems.

you are right in that only 3 people have hit 250M without aid.

i think this reset you will see a 4th (i'm assuming you counted the guy who's already over 250M as one of the three)

i'm not going to hit 250M this reset, but doesn't mean that i'm not capable. i'm to blame here mostly for being super lazy, and maybe your words will encourage me to actually try one of these days =)

i'm sure there are others in the same boat (that they are capable of breaking 250M but haven't gone around to putting in the effort yet). you should know how much effort it takes to make 250M nw since you done it. it requires a lot of work =)

i think what he meant though was there was 10 people capable of doing it, but not all of them want to do it. it's a more pragmatic vs realist approach. only 3 have done it but probably 10 can do it if they actually go for it.

Edited By: hanlong on Jun 2nd 2011, 21:12:40
See Original Post

Don Hanlong
Don of La Famiglia

highrock

Member
564

Jun 2nd 2011, 21:18:48

what i really mean is that in this environment, it's really hard to do it. i have no doubt that there are more than 10 people who theoretically know what to do to break 250M, but if they all tried, it would be very hard in this environment due to increased competition for land, etc.

formerly Viola MD

BattleKJ

Member
1200

Jun 2nd 2011, 21:21:08

I am so above this baseless trolling that I do not need to say anything.

euglaf

Member
408

Jun 2nd 2011, 21:22:49

its not that hard. i stopped trying at like week 3 and i was going to hit 225 until hanlong and chewi turned me into a guinea pig for some experimentation at the end. im still going to break 200 but i have nothing to prove in terms of netting so i didnt mind being both lazy and the guinea pig.

although i should have kept trying to beat mike and force him to keep chasing the win :)