he thinks he still gets L:L after the first retal failed...

Just don't do L:L, much easier.

we dont, they wanted to do it

I thought L:L meant you kept hitting until you got all your land back. No matter how many tries it takes.

DH usually ends the retals, no matter the policy

dh ends l:l and depending what was agreed attacker might have 1 retal left, dh doesn't end escalating retals (if no l:l authed).

^^^
what Marshall said

Agreed

how some people become alliance leaders I will never understand...

if you bounce a retal on land:land you at least have to make FR contact AGAIN

or that can be a new policy! DH's do not count as retals or new grabs! :p

that would piss off a lot of people

I could see LaF warring every set with that rule :-P

If you hit an alliance, you are subject to their retal policy. iMagNum has had the same retal policy for many years (you can view it at http://www.letskillstuff.org/?link=5 ).

With ghost acres, your guy still ended up with more acres than he started with... perhaps you should let the issue rest there.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

You're pretty much correct about this situation being best resolved if Fist had done nothing after the second retal...

But on that note, I'd love to see iMag try to enforce this policy against a clan bigger than half their size.

And I love it when Soviet tries to lecture others on the game and then ends up not knowing about pretty much standard retal policies ;)

Again Spawn, read what I said in response to a thread of this kind.

[16:59] <Spawn> make a post on AT everyone will tell you the same thing
[16:59] <Soviet> hey
[16:59] <Spawn> ho
[16:59] <Soviet> i dont follow what LCN says
[16:59] <Soviet> or LAF
[17:00] <Soviet> or monsters
[17:00] <Soviet> or anyone else
[17:00] <Soviet> i showed you our official policy towards clans like you
[17:00] <Spawn> well, i dont follow what you say, so yeah, we'll retal

It's your business whether you personally accept our policy or not, but you are at the mercy of our policy towards nonpacted clans (again, http://www.letskillstuff.org/?link=5 ). And I see you have already taken the steps necessary to hit that country twice. We will respond to you shortly.

Pontius ButtPirate: hello!

Yep, L:L stops on a def held.

Pretty standard

Trife I believe you fall into the LCN catagory.

;)

SoF does the samething, we dont really care whats standard or not its our policy having signed pacts with a lot of you on here at one time or another im very amused that not a single one of you asked to have that put in the pacts

If you dont like our policies then dont grab us, the choice is yours

Hi Soviet! I heard you bent over and bled when NA told you they only accept country:country retals. Hope you get better soon, but remember what your therapist told you: stop taking it out on small clans!

ButtPirate: Nah llaar took my disapproval quite well.

To quote Russell Peters: "Someone gonna get a hurt real bad".

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

"let us know if they start fluff with you"

Referring to SMz's post as well as this one, I think it is evident both alliances (SoF and Imag) aren't capable of retaling correctly and instead have to use their advantage in numbers to come out on top. If you DH either you suck or Carl Gauss hates you. Just accept you were unable to properly retal, buck up, and stop abusing smaller alliances.

Frankly, the notion that L:L is rescinded by a DH is entirely outmoded. With the current lg formulas, DHs aren't a particular statistical anomaly (kudos on the Gauss reference).

As for the SMz comparison: He's a single player who idiotically came here to complain and make threats far in excess of his alliance's documented retal policy.

On the other hand, this is iMagNum's official (and long standing) alliance-wide policy. We are not the party who chose to bring this to AT and have not complained about the situation. It will simply be dealt with in accordance with our policies.

Apart from the fact that both were LG disagreements dealing with Fist, I don't see the similarity. If you hit an alliance, know their retal policies. If you don't like their retal policies, be prepared to fight. If Fist walked into this without knowing our policies, their ignorance is not our problem. If they came into this with full knowledge of our policies, where's the problem?

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

Fooglmog: Allowing DHs to not count towards a retal quota effectively allows you to lemming down big retal targets... Which I'm not sure any clan would allow.

Not to mention DHs aren't really that common. Oversending by something like 10% is more than enough to all but eliminate them - I really haven't seen many failed retals this set.

bah lets just kill em all.




Kingstar
iMag Nobody.

Of course no one will accept out-right lemmings to achieve retals. But it's easy to identify lemmings based on in-game returns... and a single DH does not a lemming make. Let's not pretend that by allowing what are (obviously) unintential DHs, that it will inevitably lead to a situation of mass lemmings.

With a 10% oversend, you'll end up with about a 99% success rate. It's not like DHs due to the formula changes aren't happening.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

Speaker: Why don't you look at the news for SOF before you throw us under the bus. You will notice that aside from the two members we had detag to LAF, we have hardly been grabbing other alliances at all. Server policy politics are rapidly changing this set and this will culminate into a lot of political shifts in the next two sets.

PS: SOF has not bullied anyone smaller than them this set.

Kain bullied me.

Another fail-post by fooglmog. If there is no random chance nowadays in landgrabbing at least in comparison to before then there is more reason for it to end on a DH. Tell your noob grabbers to learn to grab and stop pushing people around. Of course its the "in" thing for war clans to do so keep at it.

Aponic Bullies the Bullies, who are intern Bullies... aka they beat themselves up :-P much love...

ps.. Lemmings wasn't even that good of a game.

pps. . my eyes hurt...

Locket, you should probably try to understand the game's mechanics (not to mention the posts of others) before offering criticism. It's not as if the concept is difficult to understand.

You seem to think that there's less random chance of failure in LGs now, and that I'm using this fact to (somehow) argue that the cessation of LGs on retals no longer makes sense.

The exact opposite it actually true.

Previously, there was no random chance of failure in LGs. Now, it exists. Because of this, failed retals are no longer necessarily a result of stupidity or an attempt at lemming. Therefore, it makes sense that this practice end. This is my statement.

I'd like to point out that this argument is supported by your own logic. In your misunderstanding of changes in game mechanics, you stated that a decrease in the random chance of failure strengthens the argument in favour of DH retal cessation. By that same token, an increase in the random chance of failure means that DH retal cessations make less sense.

I know you don't like me personally locket, but try to avoid letting those feelings blind you to the topic at hand. Calling our members "noob grabbers" in the same post as you reveal a fundamental misunderstanding of current LG mechanics really seems to demonstrate that you're going to disagree with me whether you understand the matter at hand or not. Realizing that, how can anyone take your criticism seriously?

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

Ok so the term "mehulled" didnt come from any fails that shouldnt have failed.. Ok.

I also know there is a random factor now. I am pretty damn sure there was one back then too. In comparison to before I was fairly certain it was easier to figure it out since we knew the chance now. Meh I dont remember all the old earth2025 mechanics since I didnt net a full set there.

actually it didn't... getting mehul'd was coined from a crash in the market.. or misscaculating a persons tech for LG, random gliches in loading time where you'd have to hit the back button and redue the attack to find it did it the first time.

All this could be settled if the person making the retal didn't skimp out and instead they oversent a bit. Better than losing out on land because they were cheap (think about the military losses, oil used and Jets purchased for 2 attacks instead of 1).

The "Mehul Factor" was a myth. There was no random factor which had an effect upon breaks. The idea was propagated by inexperienced players who mis-calculated their breaks and didn't want to admit to a mistake. I'm sure most of them even believed in its existence. It did not exist. When experienced players referred to it, it was an ironic way of calling someone else ignorant. The only "Mehul Factor" with a basis in reality was the 1/10 returns.

As for you not knowing because you never netted for a full reset... is that because you were warring? Or because you never played a full reset at all on E2025?

If the former, I'd suggest that it's no excuse. In fact, it's less excusable that you would believe in the existence of the Mehul Factor if you were making large number of attacks in a war.

If the latter, I'd suggest you refrain from participating in discussions where a detailed knowledge of E2025 is a pre-requisite.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

We always had a laugh of that term in TIE.. mehul'd again...

It could also be settled if Fist realized that, even with the retal, they had gained more acres than they lost on this exchange and so ought to let the issue rest.

I don't know for a fact, but knowing who the person that took the retal is, I'd bet he oversent by a reasonable amount. It's simply the random failure factor that's been introduced into the game.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

the problem with DH's and l:l is it can mean a lot more hits needed with DR's

the best way to deal with it would be to reduce the total land to be returned based on what the first hit should have taken IMO

if someone authed l:l on 2 topfeeds in 24 hours for example though and the first one is failed there should be 2 retals left even assuming the most favourable interpretation to the grabber

we know where this is going...i say wed night thurs at the latest

i'll ask the same thing i asked laf and sol could either of you please involve evo and/or omega they are in my netting way.


sexual favors from Mr. Silver and de1i will be available as payment

foog, the random factor is coded into Earth empires.

I'm fairly sure it was carried over because it existed in earth2025.

Though you are correct in that most of the time people claimed they were mehuled when in fact thye just suck ;-)

The game admins made an announcement about it on the announcements thread. It is quite minute and tapers off even more the more you oversend.

one of the new ingame tips even tells you that if you send 10% more you have a 99% chance of being successful

It was not coded into E2025 DL. It was one of the new things that came in when Slagpit completely rewrote the attack formulas. The same time as the formula was rewritten to give peak returns against those close to you in NW.

enshula, I turned my tips off pretty quickly and haven't seen that. But that's exactly what I cited the formulas as doing.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

"If you hit an alliance, know their retal policies. If you don't like their retal policies, be prepared to fight. If Fist walked into this without knowing our policies, their ignorance is not our problem. If they came into this with full knowledge of our policies, where's the problem?"
Funny you had a lot of wars with LCN over the same thing except you were the attacker

ewww Kain is around?

Why's that funny?

We didn't like the policies and chose to fight. That's one of the choices I allowed for in that statement you quoted.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

I didn't know because I played in small clans mostly and got killed or did all explore the one set I did net. I think I was proud of 55mill or somesuch back then. Think that one was in elysium. I was more interested in politics of the game.

Now I am simply here to play a country so I pay more attention to it. I actually pay attention to the applicable forumlas or let someone else put in in lamens turns like enshula :P

And most everything from the start was meant to be as close to earth 2025 as possible so until someone like pang or qz comments and says it was new with earth empires I will assume dl is right.

In other words, you have no knowledge or experience upon which to base a reasoned opinion -- but are going to disagree with me on principle until someone irrefutable tells you that you're wrong.

I'm sorry, but that position is on par with a three-year-old who sticks his fingers in his ears and claims that he's right if he can't hear the truth.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

I have 2 people who THINK it was one way and you who says it is another. Same could be said for you I suppose. You havn't showed evidence. If you do then fine. Either way the debate is meaningless.

How can I take you seriously when you can't even follow this thread accurately?

DL agrees with you, who's the second?

Junky is the only other person to comment directly, and he stated that you were incorrect to think that "Mehul'd" was coined as a reference to bounced LGs.

As for your accusation that I'm arguing the same way as you... not at all. You've admitted that you don't have the experience or knowledge necessary to have first hand knowledge on this matter. You have nothing to base your opinion on except the stated opinions of others. Yet, with no discernible difference between the two sides, you've chosen to assume (your word) that I'm incorrect. Why not simply state that, because you don't know you're not going to come down on either side? Or (better yet) stay out of a conversation to which you have no knowledge to add? To state "I have no way of knowing, but say this side is right anyway" is rather bold, to say the least.

On the other hand, I have immense experience and knowledge in this matter. I ran my own tests in to calculate formulas FFA, had conversations on the subject with some of the best war leaders in the game and have over a decade of personal experience in 1A, Alliance and EC running warchats without ever seeing a DH which wasn't the result of an error by the hitter. It is based upon that experience that I am able to state definitively that there was no random element impacting bounced hits in E2025.

Added to that, I participated in the discussion on the old EE forum in which introduction of the random element was announced as a new game element.

Is it possible that I'm wrong? I suppose. But I at least have something upon which I am basing my opinion.

However, you're right to say that I have no evidence to put forward.

- To give you my E2025 formulas would prove nothing, as generating them was one of the key steps which led me to conclude no Mehul Factor existed. If I'm wrong, they're wrong.
- To give you the EE formulas proves nothing, because no one is questioning if a random factor exists now.
- I can't point you towards Slagpit's post explaining the change, because it was on the old forums and I don't know where a record exists.

I can't think of any other useful evidence... but there's a big difference between you taking a position out of admitted ignorance and my taking a position out of professed knowledge.

You're right though, debate is meaningless... it won't solve anything... but if you're going to pick a fight with someone for no reason and tell him he's wrong, you'd better know what the hell you're talking about. If you don't, you have no right to complain about how you're treated or try to get out of the ensuing debate by calling the whole thing "meaningless".

Seriously dude, I don't even know why you dislike me so much... we disagreed on one subject and suddenly it's like you think you're on a mission from God to disagree with me every time you see me post.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.