i sent this to Balin via private message but i apologize for the events on #594.

1) #594 attacked LaF unprovoked 3 times on the same day:
2) LaF does many retals.
3) LaF countries who did those retals received harmful spy ops on tech stolen but none of them were "unsuccessful"
4) I just did the networth matches and there was one consistent hit. #449. which is a different PDM country than #594. I apologize for assuming #594 was pissed about getting retaled like crazy and resuming retaling on him (it seemed logical), but in reality it was another PDM country that was causing it and we should've retaled that one instead.

regardless though it still came from PDM. i regret that we were hitting the wrong one.

i matched two of the tech losses from different countries to the same pdm country (#449) by nw:

here's one of the examples for guys who want to see the numbers:


#36 lost networth around 7:00AM on 2/23/11 from these spy ops

Feb 23, 2011 6:49 PM
11 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1800 points of technology!

11 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1805 points of technology!

11 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1810 points of technology!

#1 match (and the only one with multiple counts is this country. this guy had 3 networth changes, while all other countries that changed networths during that time all have 1. 3 is exactly how much ops was done.)

Dont tanks me (#449) Paradigm Feb 23/11 7:57:26 AM Feb 23/11 7:47:26 AM 3

add this fact with the second country i matched went to #449 means this is not a coincidence, but that #449 is our guy

i apologize to Balin and PDM for accusing the wrong PDM country of RoR. and i can understand why they killed off #36 now, because it retaled the wrong guy.

we should've farm or killed 449 instead of farming 594 from the knowledge i know now.

but what's past is past...

i don't know if doing such actions on 449 instead would've changed this reset's pdm/laf events though for all what its worth.

maybe yes, maybe no.

but like i said the whole time LaF had PDM on DNH the whole time after the initial 17 hits by us in 24 hours (which came after PDM's first 2 hits on us as we all rehashed), because i wanted to calm things down. and it is well known from our country makeup (theocracies and the ilk) that we were netgaining this reset, i had no intentions of escalating any trouble.

you guys can all argue about LaF trying to escalate things, but in reality we were stuck on 100% retal mode this whole time. you can give me the LaF hit on PDM (outside the 17 in 24) and i'll show you the matching nuke/spy op/etc. that we intended to retal for. and i'm dead serious about that.

i love all your conspiracy theories, however =) it makes AT an more interesting read.

Matching networth changes might justify war, but not 'retals'. On a personal note I just think the whole thing got pretty lame in the aspect of RD blindsiding PDM and you more or less "justifiably" farming them.

*tears out hair*

I literally offered for you guys to farm and kill #449.

The whole RD thing was exceptional fluff. At least we had an issue we were fighting over which seemed resolvable with a war made of mostly landgrabs... like the sort of thing that could actually make this a sustainable environment for the current netting/warring alliance paradigm. Fortunately we'll never know how things would have worked out thanks to someone trying to make a statement (and of course failing miserably since blindsiding a smaller alliance already fighting a larger opponent proves zero)

aponic: good point. i'm trying to give a more personal note and not from a LaF hFA standponit so bear with me here:

1) if you are netgaining and someone is harmful spy opping you, you wouldn't try to find out who did it to retal?

2) and i wouldn't be quick to judge anyone. i'm trying to see it from everyone's persective.

from the looks of it (and dragonlance pointed this out, not me), RD pacted every alliance this reset except for PDM and clearly built for war. they had a one way street to FS PDM. whether they should've pulled a SoF and prearranged this with PDM so other's cannot potentially interfere accidentally is another matter/debate.

but i'm assuming after RD switch all their republics to dictators and tyrannies, it was a one way street (because netgaining was fruitless). i'm almost going to guess that because LaF started to escalate tensions with PDM, RD might have been afraid that LaF was going to make their reset pointless. but i don't know i'm just speculating at that point =)

LaF had their problem with PDM this reset. and the escalation with PDM came from both sides. like i said i had them set as DNH after the grabs from LaF that made PDM mad in a hope for peace, but the spy ops and nukes from them came.

i can actually side with all 3 alliances (RD/LaF/PDM).

PDM's side is they didn't want to get bullied by LaF yet again from all these years of bad history and wanted to defend themselves.

LaF just wanted to netgain and retal any spy ops and nukes based on their policies but didn't want to initiate any more grabs on PDM because that would be detrimental to treehugging.

RD was planning from the start to war PDM and at a certain point there was no point to go back to netgaining when ur guys all have 50 missiles and switched to ditator and probably didn't want to break a uNAP to war someone else so had to jump b4 the LaF/PDM tensions broke out too much where there was nothing left for RD to war on.

i can't see any alliance really at fault for what they are trying to do. it's unfortunate they all added up this way.

I think this just proves why ops aren't (and shouldn't be) considered an acceptable method of retaliation for grabs

are you expected to do this level of research to see if a country/tag has done it's earned retals? the number/type of ops could be standardized as policy but the (near) lack of accountability for succesful ops makes them more harm than good

I think I read in another thread that PDM is aware of this problem so it's all good

yeah, either all of that bullfluff happened, or the same thing that has happened for the last 10 years happened: RD does LaFs dirty work :-P

yea i wouldn't have assumed #594 was trying to retal with spy ops in the first place and would've looked for a random suicider instead if it wasn't in PDM's policy to retal with spy ops. its added to the effect that PDM was already nuking us for retals at that point so we were alerted that they were obviously using their "special attacks" portion of their retal policy already.

like if SoF or SOL spy opped a LaF country, i would assume its a random suicider or they are looking for war. not retals.

and yes i'm happy that balin is going to address that issue. if PDM isn't that sore about working with us from this reset's events (and if they are i can't blame them since there is bad blood), then i'll be happy to work with them in a positive manner

and maybe planned wars only are the way to go. this would solve the RD aspect of this event.

i think PDM dropping harmful spy ops as valid retals would make it easier to not have as much misunderstanding in calculating what retals are owed.

i hope we can all see these events as things we need to tweak for a better future =)

i fault laf for getting in our way. next time you guys start fluff with our war target we're hitting you instead and calling it reparations owed for ruining our plans.

thanks for the public apology and acknowledgment.

as rockman pointed out in a very, very detailed post... both sides shared blame. personally i count laf admitting blame a moral victory for PDM. :P

PDM is definitely dropping the policy of harmful ops as valid retals. FWIW, we didn't sanction 449's actions, weren't aware of them, and had already offered him as a farm target because of his n00bishness.

RD can just sit back down at the children's table.

i claim moral victory for LaF too because you are dropping policy out of this ;)

fair enough i guess :)

i'm sorry hanlong so pdm forces their retal policy on us last set causing a member to leave...we should stop and ask them to fight us in an arranged war?

don't think so.. pdm caused us grievance i am sorry that laf was involved in any way shape or form as i was looking forward to killing pdm all by ourselves

as i told TAN last reset i respect pdm for having the courage to fight for their members and their policy. i will honor their right to do so.

on the flip side pdm has to acknowledge RD has the same rights and this is one time the will behind both sides came into conflict.

You should have hit us last round - that is what it comes down to.

lime: i'm not saying arranged war is the way to go.

i already said in previous posts throughout AT that i think personally arranged wars is lame =) it takes a lot of the fun out of wars.

i meant the only way to make clear what what RD did in this case is to have only arranged wars. i think the fact that you have to make wars this clear defeats the very sole purpose of enjoying wars. i'm not claiming that's the right way to go though. you have every justifiable right to war PDM for your own reasons on retal policy with a surprise war (especially if you aren't like SoF were you are 100% confident you can win if it was arranged).

and detmer: i don't think its fair for you guys to decide when RD wants to war or not. just like i can never convince PDM to do exactly what i want them to do. people have always for the sake of being occupied with something else delayed actions to a later time.

TBH I would pick RD over PDM in any situation, even if PDM got the FS..

On the flip side I am all for smashing an opponent who has grieved me in the past. I don't see how RD is in the wrong.. PDM wasn't 'down' they gained land from the LAF interaction, and unless they are morons they would hav ebeen war prepping for LAF anyways.

The LAF/PDM escalation probably put PDM in a better standing to fight RD

Lime: you have to give us some kind of reasonable explanation for war if you want to be perceived as honorable. So far you've given us a flim-flam excuse that doesn't even fully line up with the news from last set. And on top of that your sense of justice needs to buy a wrisfluffch, because I've never seen such a flaccid excuse for a war that manifests itself a set late.

lol @ "wrisfluffch"

LOL cuz's there a swear word integrated into wrist watch (without the space and removing the wris and ch)

gotta tweak that swear word filter devs!

my favorite olympic lift is the snatch

what more of an excuse do you want.


you top fed us then wouldn't accept our L:L retals because it wasn't the same country that was hit

when we pushed our policy since YOU hit US your countries claimed RoR and hit us again.

and then you proceed'd to hit us and RoR even while tan was in talks with us.

i'm sure you remember when we told you to suck it after our member detag'd for 72 and hit you. and even after that YOUR member's lg mine with ingame notes claiming they were taking reps


the only reason we didn't destroy you last reset was because of silvers finish.



we have been very reasonable...i've even had several talks with ivan in wich both sides left happy and agreeable

but your members blatantly pushed us last reset and guess what we decided to push back

so quit your crying and fluffing and take it like a man

I'm not going to play stupid games on AT, so you'll have a message in boxcar here shortly Detmer.

No one is crying or fluffing. Everyone is just letting you know how stupid your decision was. Basically it comes down to you didn't want to stand up for your precious netting at the time and rather than be a man and throw a punch you just waited in weeds like a snake. Sure, its allowed... but pretty much no one is going to give you props for it. You'll notice how LaF had issues with us this round (and a lot more at stake than one person's finish) and they took it to us.

But stupid games are the best.

Yeah but I'm not an egotistical 17 year old with a chip on my shoulder anymore.

so you are actually legal now de1i?

Yea definitely I would. I was half trolling but also pointing out that matching networth deltas has never been used as a valid reason for retals (that I know of).

well harmful spy ops were never used as retals except by PDM, so the only way for me to figure out and do proper FA in regards to calculating what is valid or not is to use networth deltas.

about rockman's country he had two incidents where his country got tech stolen:


Feb 23, 2011 6:08 PM
10.2 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1350 points of technology!

10.2 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1348 points of technology!

10.2 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1348 points of technology!

10.2 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1348 points of technology!

10.2 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1349 points of technology!


Feb 25, 2011 1:28 PM
9.3 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1808 points of technology!

9.3 hours ago
Spies infiltrated your research labs and stole 1809 points of technology!


both point to this:


for the 3/23 incident:
Name Clan Relation Latest Earliest Count
Dont tanks me (#449) Paradigm Feb 23/11 8:02:26 AM Feb 23/11 7:52:26 AM 3

for the 3/25 incident:
Dont tanks me (#449) Paradigm Feb 25/11 4:12:19 AM Feb 23/11 7:52:26 AM 4


so of the 3 i researched all point to #449.

I think there are plenty of netters who would be willing to wait a set to exact revenge if the issue was large enough. It's the more restrained and intelligent thing to do. Why ruin a good netting set, when you can have it and then take care of the issue at a better time with better preparation?

Granted RD's timing with the LaF issue causes some talk, but since when has hitting someone over issues in a previous set ever been snaky or low? I thought that happened plenty of times. Didn't SoL do that as the "server police" on Imag? Didn't LCN do that to Rage?

AFAIK, There was only 1 country that left RD tag last set, and it was 310 (Goldman Sachs). If u were referring to that country , u might want to get the fact right coz he left due to his own nubness. He grabbed 1 PDM country, PDM enforced their L:L policy, and the person couldn't accepted and kept RoRing, resulting in himself losing 10k+ acres or so (right before he detagged and suicided).

So get ur fact right, YOU hit US and WE defended OUR POLICY

Pre-apologies if you are talking about a different country.

Not all the time that harmful spy ops were used by PDM were they done as retals. The 7 harmful spy ops done on me were not retals.

yes you got spy opped unprovoked by that PDM country. i realize that.. but minor details ;P

Rockman, I like you well enough but you keep squawking about what was essentially $25m lost even though it's been hashed out and rehashed a dozen times, acknowledged, apologized for, and our retal policy changed.

And it turns out the guy who opped you was previously offered to LaF as a farm/kill target anyway and you goofed.

So can we chill about those ops? :P

Thanks for looking into it hanlong, and we're taking appropriate action against the n00b that did it.

Promotion to President of PDM?

on a side note, I am now an active PDM contact again. Feel free to contact me via message on these boards, via Boxcar boards, or via MSN:

RD = LAF = PDM = ME

i think this is the first time RD has ever had to EXPLAIN why they did what they did.

we should have posted this when we declared farm:

Duke:
Merchant of Siracusa, plead no more.
I am not partiall to infringe our Lawes;
The enmity and discord which of late
Sprung from the rancorous outrage of your Duke,
To Merchants our well-dealing Countrimen,
Who wanting gilders to redeeme their liues,
Haue seal'd his rigorous statutes with their blouds,
Excludes all pitty from our threatning lookes:
For since the mortall and intestine iarres
Twixt thy seditious Countrimen and vs,
It hath in solemne Synodes beene decreed,
Both by the Siracusians and our selues,
To admit no trafficke to our aduerse townes:
Nay more, if any borne at Ephesus
Be seene at any Siracusian Marts and Fayres:
Againe, if any Siracusian borne
Come to the Bay of Ephesus, he dies:
His goods confiscate to the Dukes dispose,
Vnlesse a thousand markes be leuied
To quit the penalty, and to ransome him:
Thy substance, valued at the highest rate,
Cannot amount vnto a hundred Markes,
Therefore by Law thou art condemn'd to die


anyway on hanlongs point about our posture i even set pdm's status to "retal only" so people understood they were on dnh but we were expecting more hits and not to instigate more exchanges

not only does it turn out 449 was the opper, rather than 593, i thought 593 was offered as farm when it was actually 449