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mdevol

Member

2996

Feb 19th 2015, 22:49:26

Is it good or is it bad?

Discuss
Surely what a man does when he is caught off his guard is the best evidence as to what sort of man he is. - C.S. Lewis

ssewellusmc

Member

2431

Feb 19th 2015, 22:56:26

if you control education you control their thoughts. If you control thoughts, you control votes. If you control votes, you control power. Common core is stupid... look at how they teach Math as an example. No one understands that fluff and it takes too long to do basic math. Time is not something the goverment is concerned with but is important to the private sector.

Trife

Member

5781

Feb 19th 2015, 22:58:50

Originally posted by ssewellusmc:
if you control education you control their thoughts. If you control thoughts, you control votes. If you control votes, you control power. Common core is stupid... look at how they teach Math as an example. No one understands that fluff and it takes too long to do basic math. Time is not something the goverment is concerned with but is important to the private sector.


lol

Riddler

Member

1733

Feb 19th 2015, 23:24:48

Common core is a joke, my kids ask for help with their math homework I show them the REAL way to get the answers

Requiem

Member

5811

Feb 19th 2015, 23:57:08

I'm not in favor of it for lots of reasons. But you can google it to read both sides POV. If I were voting I'd vote 'No'

Symbolic

Member

289

Feb 20th 2015, 1:21:35

Uhhhh, common core is for the collage's?

bstrong86

Member

2476

Feb 20th 2015, 2:41:18

Common core ... pfffft

More like lets baby the kids and not teach em anything and give the infinite amount of chances on tests and homework.
The Death Knights

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bstrong86

Member

2476

Feb 20th 2015, 2:43:28

My kid is fluffed up with math right now. He started the normal way, then hit common core the past few years.

Its all a joke and apush by a new administration. Out with the old in with the new
The Death Knights

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Requiem

Member

5811

Feb 20th 2015, 4:53:42

That's why my kids will have a math tutor. Math is one of the most important subjects.

farmer

Member

854

Feb 20th 2015, 5:01:44

way too many standardized tests. I am not for common core at all. With all the fluff going on in schools right now they are going to drive away all the good teachers. They will do something else that makes twice as much money for half the work.

Swartz

New Member

6

Feb 22nd 2015, 18:05:54

Real nice!

Demi

Member

36

Feb 22nd 2015, 18:57:09

So common core is just a set of standards. It is trying to unify all the states under one 'common' set of standards that all students should have mastery at by a certain age/grade. It doesn't tell teachers how they need to teach material. So if your teacher (or kids teacher) is showing you (or your kids) strange ways of getting the answer then that is unrelated to common core. I have seen examples of teachers show ridiculous ways to do multiplication or long division and that is just a bad teacher.

The Federal gov't wanted to get involved because of states all having different state standards that didn't align with each other a lot of times. Constitutionally the federal gov't should have no say in public education but they get involved especially after Bush passed NCLB (No Child Left Behind). Lots of states allowed more federal government involvement because they got more money...I'm not saying its good or bad but I agree with farmer that there are WAY too many standardized test. (its a vicious circle, you get money based on learning gains, based on standards, justified by standardized tests).

Common Core is good and bad. Good because it makes states examine the standards children need to learn. ( States can opt out but they don't get the Federal money and leaders are afraid of political implications of dissing a certain party) Bad because I do believe in diversification and that students in Florida probably can/should learn different topics then students in Nebraska or Hawaii for example. Luckily Common Core doesn't cover every subject so States can offer their own 'specialized' curriculum, in the form of electives - but those are governed by money :(

Souly

Member

257

Feb 22nd 2015, 19:00:11

bonus

farmer

Member

854

Feb 22nd 2015, 21:16:54

Originally posted by Demi:
So common core is just a set of standards. It is trying to unify all the states under one 'common' set of standards that all students should have mastery at by a certain age/grade. It doesn't tell teachers how they need to teach material. So if your teacher (or kids teacher) is showing you (or your kids) strange ways of getting the answer then that is unrelated to common core. I have seen examples of teachers show ridiculous ways to do multiplication or long division and that is just a bad teacher.

The Federal gov't wanted to get involved because of states all having different state standards that didn't align with each other a lot of times. Constitutionally the federal gov't should have no say in public education but they get involved especially after Bush passed NCLB (No Child Left Behind). Lots of states allowed more federal government involvement because they got more money...I'm not saying its good or bad but I agree with farmer that there are WAY too many standardized test. (its a vicious circle, you get money based on learning gains, based on standards, justified by standardized tests).

Common Core is good and bad. Good because it makes states examine the standards children need to learn. ( States can opt out but they don't get the Federal money and leaders are afraid of political implications of dissing a certain party) Bad because I do believe in diversification and that students in Florida probably can/should learn different topics then students in Nebraska or Hawaii for example. Luckily Common Core doesn't cover every subject so States can offer their own 'specialized' curriculum, in the form of electives - but those are governed by money :(


in a prefect world some of this might work.Teaching is not like it used to be even just a few years ago. read this and you will get a feel for where it is going. i know teachers that have been told by students they should be shot and worse and get no punishment.
ttp://http://www.independent.co.uk/...nted-to-love-9695706.html

bstrong86

Member

2476

Feb 23rd 2015, 0:18:08

No, they do have to teach by a set of standards. Math now is not how it was taught and shown a few years ago. It is more then just tests
The Death Knights

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bstrong86

Member

2476

Feb 23rd 2015, 0:21:50

The Death Knights

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bstrong86

Member

2476

Feb 23rd 2015, 0:36:21

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k5p5pHi3Lwg

Pretty much what we've been going through
The Death Knights

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farmer

Member

854

Feb 23rd 2015, 1:43:34

I have been watching a bunch of video like this one. with out knowing what and how they want the kid taught,it is almost impossible for a parent to help them with this at home. There is a wright way and wrong way and this wrong. Couple this with no discipline in the school and it is chaos.
If an 8 year old can do it, I know I can do it. I was like—wait a minute, he’s the kid and
I’m the parent, and he knows and I don’t know.…He had got upset one day and said,
“Mom, you’re going to make me get a bad grade. That’s not right. That’s not right.
That’s wrong.”

mrford

Member

21,100

Feb 23rd 2015, 1:51:51

maybe you should have had common core for English.
Swagger of a Chupacabra

[21:37:01] <&KILLERfluffY> when I was doing FA stuff for sof the person who gave me the longest angry rant was Mr Ford

farmer

Member

854

Feb 23rd 2015, 1:51:54

the new math of the 1960s I went through the bull crap. it was used for only a short time, it could have been used better in higher achieving children i was not a one size fits all program. Someone is always trying to reinvent the wheel, and for the most part simple is best when learning something for the first time

farmer

Member

854

Feb 23rd 2015, 1:53:32

I do not copy and paste like you do, so shut up

Trife

Member

5781

Feb 23rd 2015, 1:55:56

Originally posted by mrford:
maybe you should have had common core for English.


#REKT

#SHOTSFIRED

also

http://en.wikipedia.org/...ters_in_the_United_States

Garry Owen

Member

598

Feb 23rd 2015, 2:29:05

Originally posted by Demi:
So common core is just a set of standards. It is trying to unify all the states under one 'common' set of standards that all students should have mastery at by a certain age/grade. It doesn't tell teachers how they need to teach material. So if your teacher (or kids teacher) is showing you (or your kids) strange ways of getting the answer then that is unrelated to common core. I have seen examples of teachers show ridiculous ways to do multiplication or long division and that is just a bad teacher.


The poisonous flaw in common core (note: I was on active duty with the US Army for 28 years... my kids did 4 states and 5 school systems, I like the idea of 4th grade=4th grade) is that it pulls control away from parents, teachers, local school officials and in most cases away from state officials. Because when you say that is it "just a set of standards" those standards require textbooks, workbooks, supporting handouts, lesson plans and such that must support whatever is on the way-too-many-off standardized tests.

You would think that it would not be a problem, esp with the sciences. I mean, math is math, right? Wrong. The official standard is pretty basic. For example: "CCSS.Math.Content.4.OA.A.2 -- Multiply or divide to solve word problems involving multiplicative comparison, e.g., by using drawings and equations with a symbol for the unknown number to represent the problem, distinguishing multiplicative comparison from additive comparison." Who can argue that grade schoolers should learn that multiplication is a comparison? Until the 'standards' get interpreted that EVERYONE MUST USE DRAWINGS. So students that already get multiplication, end up still having to solve every problem by drawing pictures AND a venn diagram ANd dot-squares AND finally do 4*5=20.

Why is that? Because with a common standard it empowers those great unknown people, the ones that write schoolbooks, lesson helps, worksheets etc... And those people have a vested $$ interest in pleasing the biggest states first and foremost. Before, with different standards each state had the consumer clout to say "Here is our curriculum. Everyone interested in our $$$$ book contracts for our state can propose books and we will select what we want". With common core it is quickly becoming less of a marketplace and more like buying a model-t: Any color you want as long as you want black. States and local people are losing power. Before we could go to our local school board (elected right here in town) and our member of the state school board (elected in this and a surrounding counties) and get any issues with textbooks, teaching methods, tests, and standards reviewed. We citizens and parents are taken seriously because, hey the next election is at most 2 years away. Not that every parent issue was decided the parents way -- but we had a venue to be heard and taken seriously. And if we felt things were wrong enough, then local elections and state elections are places that even individuals have an important voice.

But with common core the power shifts to unelected and unaccountable national people. Those who interpret the standards and devise the tests for them. And then to those who write curriculum supporting materials and books. Because when we (parents, teachers, local folks) dont like the way it is presented all the people we elect to do all those things have the magic free pass to say "That is the Common Core". The selection of textbooks and materials is getting smaller. If a state or municipality complains and wants something different, they get told "That is the Common Core." And of course if you want a different interpretation then it will cost you $$$. Lots and lots of $$$ for a special order. That is $$ that states and cities do not have so they are stuck getting what was already written. And so the writers will listen to California and NYC and such because of their large numbers.... and if Pierson Books keeps California happy then the rest of us will have to follow suit because we dont have any more choices.

That is my problem with common core. Because it takes the power and oversight from the parents and local community, and puts it all out of reach at the national level.


Edited By: Garry Owen on Feb 23rd 2015, 2:32:47

mrford

Member

21,100

Feb 23rd 2015, 2:30:40

Originally posted by farmer:
I do not copy and paste like you do, so shut up


lol, i c/p? ok chief. try to type, in english letters and fluff, something that i have c/ped recently.

making up random fluff as an offence isnt a good defense.
Swagger of a Chupacabra

[21:37:01] <&KILLERfluffY> when I was doing FA stuff for sof the person who gave me the longest angry rant was Mr Ford

farmer

Member

854

Feb 23rd 2015, 2:48:53

I did not know I was in an English class and had to have grammar and punctuation correct, some people just can't be as perfect as you I guess.

mrford

Member

21,100

Feb 23rd 2015, 3:07:12

i typo more than hellen keller, but you made some grade school grammatical errors in a post critiquing education. how are you not supposed to be called out on that

lol. im just fluffing with you though.

Edited By: mrford on Feb 23rd 2015, 3:23:55
Swagger of a Chupacabra

[21:37:01] <&KILLERfluffY> when I was doing FA stuff for sof the person who gave me the longest angry rant was Mr Ford

farmer

Member

854

Feb 23rd 2015, 3:29:18

some of the schools around here do not even have text books. The teacher has to generate his own lesson plan off the net.O by the way this school has a failing grade with the state.

Dissident

Member

2741

Feb 23rd 2015, 17:14:49

maybe bcuz the state wouldnt give money for textbooks

Dissident

Member

2741

Feb 23rd 2015, 17:18:28

Teacher: we would do better if we had like... books and money and stuff.
State: Once you do better, we will give you money for that stuff.
Teacher: I can't do better unless I have books.
State: Teach from the heart... haven't you seen any movies on edumacation?

let's also keep in mind that the education requirement for being a teacher is higher than for a state governor.

Teacher= 3-6 years of school
Governor= 0 years of school

Twain

Member

3320

Feb 24th 2015, 3:10:22

I'm actually a teacher. I teach high school English and am in the 10th year of my career. I currently do teach at a private Catholic school, but we use the Common Core standards. So perhaps my view of this will be different from those in public school, because while we're using the standards, we don't have the same pressures due to testing.

Here are some thoughts:

The standards are more rigorous than the previous state standards that were used in Illinois, and I'm certain that the Illinois standards were much more rigorous already than many other states. The standards are also quite general and don't prescribe what to teach, only what goals we should be striving for. For instance, one of the 9th and 10th grade standards for literature is: "Cite strong and thorough textual evidence to support analysis of what the text says explicitly as well as inferences drawn from the text."
There's nothing in there that tells me what short stories, poems, or novels I have to cover.

Furthermore, the standards try to push the teaching of reading and writing across the curriculum, which is very important, because while I can certainly teach how to write a good argumentative topic or a literary analysis paper, and I can certainly teach how to analyze a short story or a piece of Shakespeare, I don't know how a lab report should be written or what reading strategies should be used to best analyze a history text, and these are the types of skills that have traditionally just been thrust upon the English department and ignored by other departments.

The only annoying thing is that the next big educational idea comes around about every 3-4 years and teachers basically end up spending a ton of time re-aligning curriculum each time the next big idea comes out.

Beyond that, for the common core math thing: I hear everyone complain about how it's stupid and how it's too convoluted, but honestly, as a teacher, I've wondered what the big fuss is and read enough of the websites both complaining about them as well as the ones that stand up for common core, and I've come to the conclusion that the supposed "common core math" is exactly how I do math in my head. It's just understanding how to play with numbers in a way to make math easier. For instance, subtract 198 from 791 without paper. You could go column by column, borrowing each time, or you could realize that 198 is 200-2 and you could subtract 200 and add 2 and get 593. THAT'S the supposedly evil, convoluted common core math that you see on all those worksheets.

Beyond that, while this community may be a poor group to sample, how many people do you know who say they hate math? If we've been teaching math in a certain way for a long time and it creates a lot of people who think they hate math and aren't good at it, perhaps we're teaching it wrong.

So my thoughts on Common Core? I don't mind it. The English standards I very much appreciate for many reasons, and I've picked up some new methods that I think have been very helpful in the suggestions on how to teach these standards.

The math stuff? I truly am far from an expert since it's not my field, but the whining and crying about it seems like much ado about nothing.

And anyone that is going to claim it's some giant government conspiracy to teach a curriculum to control the population has completely missed the point and has absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

farmer

Member

854

Feb 24th 2015, 3:52:23

TWAIN sounds like you have had a good experience with common core. Maybe it is not common core i am so frustrated with but more the state of Indiana and how it handles education in general. are the teachers in ill pay raises based on teacher evaluations? I also think that maybe public schools have more problems with discipline than private schools. Charter schools in Indiana have been taking enrollment away from the public schools so there budgets have been cut. I know several teachers and none of them seem happy with the changes that are taking place here.

bstrong86

Member

2476

Feb 24th 2015, 11:30:24

Commom core is flawed in the sense that now the parent, does not have the ability to help their children. Kind of hard to 'help' when the lesson plans are derived frm web sites that we have no access to. And lets face it 13yr olds arent going to take decent enough notes for a parent to understand how a teacher is trying to show them how to do something. I can get my kids to the right answer but i dont know what work they want shown for it to be right. As for other subjects other then math, it doesnt seem to be as big an issue. Its the fact that 9-7 is not 9-7 anymore.
The Death Knights

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Twain

Member

3320

Feb 24th 2015, 15:17:40

Originally posted by farmer:
TWAIN sounds like you have had a good experience with common core. Maybe it is not common core i am so frustrated with but more the state of Indiana and how it handles education in general. are the teachers in ill pay raises based on teacher evaluations? I also think that maybe public schools have more problems with discipline than private schools. Charter schools in Indiana have been taking enrollment away from the public schools so there budgets have been cut. I know several teachers and none of them seem happy with the changes that are taking place here.


I'd say my experience with it is mixed, but the negatives aren't necessarily the fault of Common Core, but rather just that there's always a new big push on how to make schools better every 5 years or so, and that means we teachers end up having to re-align everything every 5 years or so, which is mostly making some small modifications, maybe adding or subtracting a unit here or there, and then doing a TON of paperwork to line things up.

There are plenty of negatives about it, so I'm not trying to sound all rose-colored about CC. We went textbook shopping a couple years ago, and our options were fairly limited because the textbook companies weren't all fully realigned with CC yet, so we only really had 2 books to choose between. Beyond that, it's of course those same textbook companies that are the ones that benefit most from all these changes, because they get to re-align their own stuff every 5 years and then try to peddle off new books and resources.

bstrong: I don't agree at all with what you say there. First off, 9-7 is still 9-7. The new standards simply try to teach some real number sense to show the kids what 9-7 means instead of just making them memorize that 9-7=2 without really thinking about that these numbers actually symbolize things.

I said this in my earlier longer post, but again, if I want to do some multi-digit multiplication, I like let's say 199 x 5, I could try to do each digit separately in my head, trying to remember what my tens and ones columns are, or I can realize that 199x5 is 200x5-5 and figure out that it's 995 much faster. That's the number sense that the new style of math seems to be teaching.

Furthermore, how many other subjects can you really just sit down and start helping your kids with their homework immediately on anyway? If I assign a short story for my students to read, most likely as a parent, you: a) have never read the story, and would have to read it to help your kid, or b) read it when YOU were in school, which is presumably at least 20 years ago, and you probably don't remember it well enough to help without re-reading it to help your kid.

I would assume that with the help of the math text that most parents could figure out how the problems are supposed to be done, but people who are good at math assume they know everything about math at lower levels that what they've achieved, which isn't true about history or English. No one assumes they've read every story that a 7th grader is likely to read, or that they know every fact or every issue that might be discussed in a freshman level history course.

Overall, I hope I don't come across as a blind apologist for Common Core. It certainly has its flaws. However, as a teacher, I can tell you that I most likely understand the full positive and negative implications better than most people, and the issues that are the ones that are politicized aren't the real issues. The real issues deal with whether standardized tests really test anything meaningful, and whether it's fair to judge a teacher's salary on how his or her students do, and whether all the extra time spent prepping for a bubble test could be better spent in other ways, and the commercialization of education that is caused when we change standards twice a decade, causing supposed obsolescence of all our previous textbooks, and, and, and.

Not whether the average person can sit down and immediately answer their 5th graders math homework without even bothering to look at the textbook.

Twain

Member

3320

Feb 24th 2015, 15:28:04

Originally posted by farmer:
TWAIN sounds like you have had a good experience with common core. Maybe it is not common core i am so frustrated with but more the state of Indiana and how it handles education in general. are the teachers in ill pay raises based on teacher evaluations? I also think that maybe public schools have more problems with discipline than private schools. Charter schools in Indiana have been taking enrollment away from the public schools so there budgets have been cut. I know several teachers and none of them seem happy with the changes that are taking place here.


You had some other thoughts there that I thought I would address, but I knew my last post was already long.

1) I've taught 3 years in public schools and 7 in private. There are certainly more discipline problems in public.

2) Charter schools are a blessing are a curse. They can be great for those kids that get in, but they divert a LOT of resources away from the main public schools, and also take away a lot of the kids that act as models of what it means to be a good student, which can often make what's typically a bad school environment even worse.

3) I've been out of publics long enough that I'm not 100% sure on the testing and pay connection, but I'm almost positive that they don't do that in Illinois (at least not state wide). Merit pay in theory sounds good, but for instance, I'm blocked my a lot of older teachers from getting any Honors classes at my current school until someone retires. I've got lower and middle level tracked kids other than the elective I teach, so comparing my scores to the other guy that teaches sophomores that has regular and upper-level tracked kids would be totally unfair, because my lower-level students are probably going to average 10-15 points less on the ACT than his Honors students will. If the numbers can be put into full context and looked at in trends, that data could be useful, and I'm part of a group at my school pushing for more such analytics to help us become better teachers, but ultimately, any one year's testing scores are statistically problematic when you consider all the variables that cannot be accounted for.

bstrong86

Member

2476

Feb 24th 2015, 16:02:04

I think you missed my point. 9-7 is 2. But what i was implying, is that its just not 9-7=2 anymore. There are complexities to the.answer such as number lines, graphs, bars, pictures etc. Now that we are doing some simple algebra and more complex problems the issues are unfolding for the kids around here. Mine especially. You can rationalize 199*5 all you want as 200*5-5 and thats something most people pick up on in time. But for kids, KISS. Let them develope there own way along the way of learning. Ive noticed that all the parents around here have had the same issues. They dont know what the teacher wants because they do the lesson plans on ipads at school. So.when they get HW, we have no idea how to show them what to do(how the teacher wants it done)

As for other subjects, like i said, we havemt really encountered any issues. Its the math. They have over complicated easy questions with complex answers
The Death Knights

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mrford

Member

21,100

Feb 24th 2015, 16:11:33

I feel like common core effects math a bit differently than english, but that was a solid responce by twain none the less.
Swagger of a Chupacabra

[21:37:01] <&KILLERfluffY> when I was doing FA stuff for sof the person who gave me the longest angry rant was Mr Ford

Trife

Member

5781

Feb 24th 2015, 16:48:37

Originally posted by bstrong86:
Commom core is flawed in the sense that now the parent, does not have the ability to help their children.


sounds similar to when computers started becoming heavily integrated into a childs education

Dissident

Member

2741

Feb 24th 2015, 17:55:14

That feels true to me Trife. When computers came out in force, parents had no way to help their kids... but computers had enough excitement intrinsically linked with them that kids didn't need help from parents (in general). Information processing was like gym class... you just did what you could in class and it was all about practice more than learning.

There is a lot of resistance to new math from parents because they don't know how to help their kids learn it... Is the onus on parents to figure it out so they can help their kids when it comes time for homework?

Atryn

Member

2149

Feb 24th 2015, 20:15:41

Common Core was a great concept overall but it has suffered from numerous problems. Let's start with some of the positive goals of Common Core:

1. More rigorous standards
2. Support for today's more mobile population (i.e. a family can move from one state to another without the historical complexities of vastly different educational systems)
3. Lower costs (primarily through economies of scale)
4. Simpler comparative data on state/district/school/teacher/student performance (only possible with some standardization)

Now, some of the problems:

1. Horrible marketing. The gov't have never been good at this and they royally screwed this one up. They allowed private companies, interest groups, political action committees (on both sides) and others to "define" common core for the public and none of them are correct. Part of the fault with this is that it is NOT a federal initiative, but an alliance of the states, so there isn't really any centralized leadership.
2. No regulation or oversight. Similar to the above, there are no "police" on what is or is not "common core ready" or "common core aligned". Companies slapped that label on things right and left to achieve sales. Let's be clear here - the PRIVATE SECTOR took advantage of the chaos and screwed our kids. Yes, the chaos was the govt's fault (IMHO), but "leaving it up to the private sector" is not the answer.
3. Too much, too fast. Many districts and some states tried to change the entire system overnight without the development of best practices, role models, etc. When you try to change all teachers and all teaching and all schools (from the best of them to the worst of them) simultaneously, you get chaos.
4. High Stakes (Digital) Assessments. They aren't ready. The system is too new for these to be anything other than "measurements" right now. High stakes - hell no.

Among the marketing problems is communication with parents, no doubt. Ideally, the districts and schools would have really taken the lead on this with better communications and preparation. It shouldn't come from the states, IMHO, and it isn't a federal program. School Boards are largely to blame here as the main connection between the districts and the constituency. Ultimately it was a symptom of the a fore-mentioned "too much too fast" problem.

With regard to federal funding, it is not tied to Common Core. Some federal funding is tied to certain requirements around the adoption of rigorous standards - but common core is not the only option. (Look at VA, for example, who is not a common core state). Other federal funding is tied to other requirements from digital assessments to data-driven decision making to teacher assessments, etc. States can always opt out of that funding if they are willing to adequately fund education themselves (most are not). This is similar to other federal programs that states can opt-in or opt-out of such as Federal highway transportation dollars, medicare expansion, etc.

Separate from Common Core, but related to the comments in this thread - I actually think local school boards are the biggest problem in U.S. education today. If you disagree, you probably haven't met as many of them as I have. They are typically elected in local dressed up popularity contests where actual credentials on education or managing large institutions/budgets are irrelevant. Most school board members have full time jobs that leave them little time for really understanding what is happening in their district. This happens at both large (LAUSD) and small school districts. University System Boards of Regents are typically much better functioning organizations, and typically appointed positions, not locally elected.

How many of you really understood everything you SHOULD have understood when voting in your last local school board election? Do you even think you were qualified to make that decision? Are you certain the candidates were?

I could go on forever as I live in this world, but I have gone on long enough. :)

Raging Budda

Member

2002

Feb 24th 2015, 20:39:09

I don't have much expierence wtih CC, but the videos of teachers explaing the math part of CC have left me gaping. But at the same time, when I do math in my head I try to do math in units of 10,100, etc as much as possible.

So for 792-198, I do 792 - 200 and then add 2 back. But that extra hoops for trival calcuations just seems mind boggling.

Then there is always this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkbQDEXJy2k
Your base is mine!

k_alle

Member

62

Feb 24th 2015, 20:48:07

ay

mdevol

Member

2996

Feb 25th 2015, 11:53:22

in regards to what was pointed out above, 5 of the best teachers I had in high school and middle school all retired after the shift of CC came in. They had fought in their department for well over a decade to get the curriculum and the books for that curriculum to align and then essentially overnight, they were told "sorry, these are the books you have to choose from"

I come from a pretty decent school district, and my district saw 18 teachers retire over the CC implementation citing that it completely changed the curriculum they had established and limited the options of resources they could use to do so.

This is why I asked about it on here.

As far as school boards, I don't yet have children, but I take elections on the local levels quite serious, those are the elections that get things done/changed. I totally understand what you mean about the popularity contests and such. it is infuriating. That being said, that is what most elections are for anything.
Surely what a man does when he is caught off his guard is the best evidence as to what sort of man he is. - C.S. Lewis

Xninja

Member

1193

Feb 25th 2015, 12:14:42

Let me start off by stating I know NOTHING about the current topic, I will have to go do some reading... but anyways!

The answer is we all go back to the stone age and teach our children to live off the land :p, give them real skills that will ensure survival at the collapse of modern society...

Back to basics. Sure basic education will be needed, you will have to understand that 2 cows are worth more than 2 chickens... so you will need to know how to at least count :/

As for educational and technological advancement in general...

All technology does is make us lazy, ignorant and dependant on more technology.

The bottom line, if we really want our children to be smarter/more educated, keep them in school longer....
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hawkeyee

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Feb 25th 2015, 16:42:49

As a (Canadian) teacher, I don't know much about common core. What I can tell though from the videos posted and discussions that I've read is that, especially with math, the focus is not on getting the right answer, but rather on understanding the process to get to the answer.

THIS IS SO ASS BACKWARDS

The idea is that not all kids can manage algorithms and rote learning isn't for everyone. That's fine. So accommodate THOSE kids who need the extra support and differentiated strategies to get to the answer. Don't punish the other kids who know the answer but can't explain it in the limited way that the teacher wants. That's ridiculous. It seems like these math lessons are all about giving students different ways to show their learning. Pictures/Numbers/Words etc. But by forcing all kids to do it the same way, isn't that just the exact same problem we had in the beginning?

Lets look at the way fractions are taught in Ontario in grades 6ish. They're introduced as fraction number lines. Multiplying fractions is taught in some ridiculous way that I have never seen before, and no matter how many times I've tried to wrap my head around it, and despite my qualification to teach up to Grade 10 math, I can't figure out how the fluff these people teach multiplying fractions on a number line.

For 3/7 x 2/9 for example, they'll show a number line broken up into 7ths, and colour 3 of those 7th. Then they'll break up each of those 7th into 9s, and colour 2 9s in each of the 3 coloured 7ts. You now have 6 small 63rds coloured. WHAT THE fluff DOES THIS SHOW?!? Don't even get me tarted with dividing because fluff if I know how to even describe an example.

What happened to - multiply across, and, multiply by the reciprocal of the second fraction? Since when was that not good enough? Since when is mental math not good enough? You're just replacing one easy algorithm with an incredibly complicated algorithm. Nothing has improved!

It seems like in the States this type of thing happens all the time, and it's starting to come up here now.

The majority of kids are fine with the standard algorithms. In fact, I guarantee that every single person involved in developing these standards, coming up with these completely ridiculous ways to solve simple questions, and the teachers teaching them, HAVE ALL LEARNED THE STUFF THEY'RE TEACHING WITHOUT GOING THROUGH THIS NONSENSE. It worked for them, it will work for most. Accommodate those that need accommodating, but don't completely flip a system on its ass!

There is way too much focus on understanding "why" before understanding "what" and that's crazy. Get the right answer, and the understanding will develop.
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Twain

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3320

Feb 25th 2015, 19:08:05

I'm gonna try to come in here and address at least what I know of some of these things. Again, I'm not a specific Common Core expert, and my main knowledge is on the English standards, but I am, as I said earlier, actually a high school teacher who has a curriculum adapted to Common Core.

Garry Owen:

You said a couple things I think are worth clearing up. FIrst off, you claim that local boards are telling you "That's the Common Core." and basically implying you need to deal with it. They should be giving you better explanation. If they ARE, and then they're saying, we've adopted the common core because of x and y reasons, and it's designed to help bring up standards, then at least they've explained themselves, but if they're dismissing you with "That's just CC." then you should do ewverything you can to hold them more accountable.

However, beyond that, it's also a fairly BS statement. As I said earlier, there are very few things in the standards (there are a few) that say what should be taught specifically or how. I'm sure that's more prevalent on the math side since math is much more articulated as to what should be taught and to what age group, but especially on the Humanities and Social Sciences side, there's nothing that says what books I have to teach. That's still very much under local administrations' and school boards' power.

Also, while it's a minor point, you mentioned that school book companies just need to make CA happy, which I figure you assumed CA since it's the biggest state population wise, but actually the state that flexes their muscles the most on textbooks is Texas. Most English and History books are fairly conservative because Texas is the state that pushes hardest on what should or shouldn't be in textbooks, and they, as you probably were assuming with CA, also have a large population. So many books are written for Texas and adapted slightly for other states.

Twain

Member

3320

Feb 25th 2015, 21:46:38

Originally posted by bstrong86:
I think you missed my point. 9-7 is 2. But what i was implying, is that its just not 9-7=2 anymore. There are complexities to the.answer such as number lines, graphs, bars, pictures etc. Now that we are doing some simple algebra and more complex problems the issues are unfolding for the kids around here. Mine especially. You can rationalize 199*5 all you want as 200*5-5 and thats something most people pick up on in time. But for kids, KISS. Let them develope there own way along the way of learning. Ive noticed that all the parents around here have had the same issues. They dont know what the teacher wants because they do the lesson plans on ipads at school. So.when they get HW, we have no idea how to show them what to do(how the teacher wants it done)

As for other subjects, like i said, we havemt really encountered any issues. Its the math. They have over complicated easy questions with complex answers


I didn't necessarily miss your point. I'm just trying to get at the point that knowing multiple ways to get the right answer isn't necessarily a bad thing. I remember many times in math classes if there was an easy way to get the answer and a longer way, typically we were taught the long way first, and then after we mastered that, they showed us the shortcut method.

I doubt there'd be numberline usage for 9-7 anyway, because single-digit addition and subtraction isn't the purpose, but I get that's not really your point, and if we're talking about, let's say, 909-722=, then a number line is fine by me.

Again, instead of subtracting 2 from 9 to get 7 for the ones column, then borrowing so I could subtract 2 from 10 to get 8, then 8-7 (since I borrowed) to get 187, I could just subtract 722 from 900 and then add the 9 back in. I can do the latter method in my head in about 2-3 seconds. That's the point of the number line, working with numbers that are more comfortable to work with.

Twain

Member

3320

Feb 25th 2015, 21:51:46

hawkeyee: Are you specifically a math teacher? And what levels? Elementary? Middle school? Secondary/High School?

Hawkster

Member

429

Feb 26th 2015, 7:55:05

@Twain. I also have always processed math basically way common core does. So while I and also you would have no problems with it obviously. The problem is I do not know how many others do it this way, and more importantly of those that do not, how many of them are even capable of doing it that way.

I look at my step-daughter as prime example. Her maths skill suck. Both me and my wife, who is always good at math, did try to have our step-daughter do it the common core way years ago before common core was around. That just confused her even more. She only had limited grasp on basic math and trying to get her to see how and why was just so beyond her grasp it only got her lost. Someone posted 3/7 x 2/9 example. Our step-daughter at least understood the principle of multiplying across, but she struggled with such simple things as even doing that. However at least she understood the principle. The common core way would just completely blown her mind.

So I go back to my original problem which I do not know. Is our step-daughter just a small percentage of whom this common core would not have helped and actually made this worse? Or is she in fact part of a large percentage? Did anyone even look into this before implementing Common Core? All things I do not know, but are important things to consider and I could be wrong, but somehow I doubt anyone actually did. I would guess they needed something new to try and get better results and this was the best looking thing to try.

I do not have an issue with Common Core really, what I do have an issue with is like you said, every so many years they are implementing something new, always making changes which adds to the costs and doesnt even get the real benefits and time of the prior changes made.

Cerberus

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3546

Feb 27th 2015, 3:16:13

Straight left-wing propaganda
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elvesrus

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Feb 27th 2015, 3:38:06

It's Bill Gates money behind it, and it seems like he is close to the middle
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