This
Originally
posted by
elvesrus:
if a woman wants an abortion she is going to get one, so shouldn't we support her getting it done in a safe environment?
And good posts juice. I don't understand how the argument for 'smaller government' translates into monitoring people's sexual activities or life partner choices or controlling women's healthcare decisions either. They use 21st century computers but have a 2nd century mentality.
I've also thought (a lot) about what we can do about unwanted pregnancies, terrible parents, and overpopulation. Without the option of forced sterilization (and it must never be an option) or some future chemical on/off reproductive switch we give to adolescents until they prove themselves to be responsibly ready for parenthood (who would write THAT test?) we can only hope that education and easier access to safe birth control can remedy both of these immense problems. No one 'likes' abortions and we should do what we can to reduce their occurrence but there is absolutely no logic in arguing for their complete ban. And in cases where it's fetus vs mother, the choice is still the mother's. Always.
Originally
posted by
Trife:
Originally
posted by
blid:
the claim that the life of a fetus has value that needs to be protected
ahhh, that's what the argument boils down to again - the point at which life begins. in my opinion, your religious ideals shouldn't override/infringe upon a persons freedom of choice over her own body. if you're christian, and against abortions, sure that's cool, you don't have to have one if you don't want one. but why should someone who's either atheist, buddhist, rastafarian, pastafarian be bound by your religious beliefs?
this 'discussion' on AT is going nowhere - people are so firmly entrenched in their beliefs arguing about it is just like, as they say, racing in the special olympics... so i won't post more about it.
juice brought up some good points. nice post
Lots to say..
I don't think the point at which life begins is a factor. Would anyone argue against the fact that the sperm and the ovum are indeed alive, and given the right sequence of events each has the potential for human life?
Shall we go to the spilling seed argument next? You porn-addicted fappers here wouldn't like that. And should we have funerals for a woman's menstrual flow? Another living egg that _could_ have been human. Tiny tiny caskets.
Of course the majority don't make those arguments any more. But don't forget, they are in our history.
Sperm, ovum, they hold the _potential_ for human life. As does a zygote. And an embryo. But none will make it to human on their own.
Egg, sperm, zygote, embryo. All have the potential to become a human life. After fertilization and attachment to the womb the zygote, then embryo cannot survive to become a human fetus without first going through the inherent parasitic stage. A mindless clump of cells taking nutrients from its host's bloodstream.
And what of tubal (aka ectopic) pregnancies? A parasitic clump of cells that have the potential to become human attaches to the wrong place inside a woman's body. Not human. And not murder to have that clump of cells surgically removed.
Calling abortion murder, especially 1st trimester abortion, is undeniably either a plea to heartstrings or religious dogma in denial of scientific and medical fact.
I repeat, abortion of the zygote or the embryo is not murder. I don't disagree a case can be made for a fetus. I am uncomfortable with the abortion of a fetus much past the 20th week. Brain stem brainwaves begin at around 7 weeks; cerebral cortex brainwaves appear around the 22nd week. Even then, the cerebral cortex - the part of the brain that makes us distinctly human - is functioning at a very low level. Lower than any 'born' mammal that you might hunt. And eat. Or kill for 'sport'.
Where to draw the line? I don't know. But I'm a guy, I'll never have to make that decision for myself. And I have no right to make that choice for any other. It's the woman's body that contains the parasitic organism, the potential human, not mine. It's the woman's decision. Always.
Potential for human life is far different than claiming it _is_ human life. An embryo becomes a fetus in the ninth week but even in the 24th week it only has a 50% chance of survival if removed from the womb, even with the most advanced modern medical technology. With easier access to pregnancy testing and better real-world sex education (abstinence-only sex ed is a joke btw) the later term abortions could be avoided almost entirely. But I repeat, even in the 3rd trimester, if it's a medical situation where it's fetus vs woman, it's the woman's choice. Always.
And let's get effin real - allow loving gay couples to adopt just as easily as loving straight couples can. There are so many good homes unavailable to needy unwanted abused children just because of sexual preference discrimination in our society.
WTF you dummies! a loving home is a loving home. We've all seen hetero couples that have no business being parents, but a solid loving gay relationship is deemed by so many of you to be unhealthy solely because of what they do behind their bedroom door. Or (hahahaha) you just blindly call them 'sinful' and think that's reason enough to deny their rights.
Your ignorance and intolerance should not be allowed to discriminate within society-at-large. Don't shove your ignorance outside the walls of your home in order to diminish the lives of others.
And don't even try the biblespeak unless willing to explain the recipe for the 'bitter water' potion described in Numbers otherwise known as The Test for an Unfaithful Wife. Beginning around Numbers 5:11 God describes to Moses the potion to be used by a priest to abort a pregnancy caused by a man other than the woman's husband.
At least for infidelity, your God endorsed abortion, with no limits on third trimester pregnancies.
And worth repeating - no one 'likes' abortion. Ideally, unwanted pregnancies would be avoided through the use of birth control, but there's a significant number in the US against even that, led by the crazy Catholic Church still trying to outbreed their political enemies for world domination. It's i n s a n e !
We have a world that is desperately overpopulated; here we are in the 21st century and we're still arguing that a clump of cells attached to a woman's uterus has to be protected while assistance for families in poverty is being slashed in times of high unemployment while far too many college grads are flipping burgers.
Are you people so out of touch with reality that you don't see the conflict here? You're pro-life until birth!
Protect the embryo - until it's born. Then if the parents can't feed 'em or provide shelter or clothe or educate 'em or provide health care for 'em.. well then that's the parents fault and to hell with the kid. Let that kid suffer the parents 'sin', right? Take away food subsidies. End that evil school lunch program. Demolish the ACA. Make that kid suffer!
Or is it, those embryos you cared so much about just seem to become invisible to you after they are born?
By what mental process does that occur?
That's a fine example of your morality?!?
Let the born suffer but that mindless clump of cells is sacred. Let health insurance plans cover Viagra but no way should they include birth control. Does that make sense to you?
And before you go all Planned Parenthood apocalyptic, check your facts: Abortions represent 3 percent of total services provided by Planned Parenthood. Over 85% goes to STD testing/treatment, cancer screening/prevention and contraception. How much of your precious tax dollars do those services save in the long run? They do receive federal funding, but that money cannot be used for abortions. By law.
Just what do you think the world will be like in the year 2100, when we have not 7.2 billion people but 10.8 billion? Do you think you'll be insulated from the effects of that? Are you really going to fight to ban abortion and diminish women's access to birth control while ignoring the starving millions? But you already do, you effin heartless bastards. We gotta make more babies, right? Not just one, we need every woman to have at least ten children don't we?
BTW, a lot of you big heroic men whine - yes WHINE - about having to take personal responsibility themselves for birth control. You don't seem to realize you're half the equation. These 'manly men' whine that they don't like the condom. They really seem to think that contraception is 100% the responsibility of the woman.
fluff 'em and leave 'em, right? And just hope that you don't get that 'call' in a few months. It felt sooo goood w/out that damn condom. Then when that call comes, ya fluff at her for 'getting herself pregnant'. But you don't want a penny of your tax dollars or your healthcare premiums to help her have easier access to birth control.
In a sane society we should all happily want our tax dollars helping to avoid unwanted pregnancies. For crissakes, if only you fluffed that much about your tax dollars used for killing those people halfway around the world.. but we can't let those missiles get dusty on a rack now can we? Jobs! Jobs! Jobs! You whine about abortion being murder, while such a large portion of our economy is built upon producing machines of war, machines for death. Post-birth abortions.
Pro-life my ass!
Originally
posted by
Cerberus:
Dumbasses, abound, I swear. You all want to run around here and sceram that a fetus isn't a baby human, and you want to be able to murder that child on a whim, and then, should some violent criminal kick the living fluff out of some woman who is pregnant and she has a miscarriage, you want to charge him with murder. WTF, you can't have it both ways, assholes.
Get over yourselves, you're brain damaged, and it's getting worse, probably could find a way to blame this on Monsanto.
Holy fluff you are a stupid old man aren't you? You don't understand the difference in your example? Talk about brain damaged! Unfortunately I don't think you are just a troll. I get a distinct impression you're criminally dangerous.
You're going to be on the national news one day aren't you? That's your vengeance fantasy isn't it? Go out with a bang!
And then all your posts here on these forums will be scrutinized by every 24 hour MSM talking head for weeks and people here will be interviewed saying "yeah I saw him post a lot of stupid intolerant hateful fluff but I never thought he'd do anything like THAT".
Even Alex Jones and Mark Levin will throw your dumbass under the bus. But you don't care, do you? Cuz at least they'll know your name.
You are ruled by ignorance and hate and visions of revenge and have created for yourself an illusory Us vs Them alternate reality to explain why you came up short of your life's dreams and you have to blame someone other than yourself or you just can't stand it.. it burrrrns inside your head and it won't stop it won't stop it just won't stop - is that what it's like to be you Cerberus?
Get your ass into therapy man! _before_ you become another fluffstain in history's archives. Seriously. FFS!
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