meh just make a reasonable one that even though it is different others will accept. From what Silver posted that is a pretty decent retal policy to go by. As long as someone doesnt do a topfeed they can do all the landtrading they want :P

And I am pretty sure that other clans' policy is made to help their clan members play how they want too.

Did you just SERIOUSLY say we don't have a RIGHT to play how we want? You're a retard. Bring Pang back. At least he and I were making progress, however slow that was.

Locket, we FAed LaF in their LAST war against SOL, which was only 2 or so sets ago. Ask Pang for confirmation.

If you can't topfeed you shouldn't be able to bottomfeed either... why should big be allowed to freely hit small but not vice versa?

That's exactly my point flameo. Thier policy benefits them, ours benefits us. So need to find a common ground or same sort of thing ends up happening.

They however tell us it's good for one and all :)

Please explain to me how being allowed to take all of your land back in a big grab is not helpful to you? (which is actually much more than taking all of your land back after ghost acres)

ummm... you quoted my answer to that.

you have a policy that helps you (C:C landtrading) we have a policy that helps us (not landtrading L:L or alliance wide retals on all grabs). We're not NAP'ed and you guys don't want to... so only answer so that we don't have problems is to find a middle ground.

What I offered allowed you guys to..
1. Not NAP us (what you wanted)
2. Grab and landtrade with us (what you wanted)
3. Country to country retals (what you wanted)
4. Not topfeed us to an extent that it hurts our countries (only part that you don't want.. but it's the only way the rest of the policy will fly with us)

I'm being extremely reasonable and making a sound offer. I'm not trying to take liberties with PDM. You already know that you don't have to worry about us making big grabs on you as we haven't in the past two resets. Meanwhile you have guys like Snawdog that will hit countries with 5-8x their acres.

No amount of defence short of jumping to a point where you can't stock can preven that sort of behavior. So instead we will.


As I wrote above. Would you prefer that instead of L:L on topfeeds that LaF and RD instead perform 1:Kill on all topfeeds?
I could arrange that.

You already know niether of our alliances will be hitting your larger countries.

Well LaF farms our larger countries in an effort to destroy their retal capactiy, so I wouldn't speak for them. =P

If you are worried about 5x grabs I am happy to allow you guys to retal alliance-wide for a country that grabs someone with more than 5x their acres. It has never been made clear that those were the grabs you were concerned with. Not being allowed to grab someone with more acres than you is the sort of thing I can't allow.

Our definition is 125% (which would be the point where 2 hits have to be made to get land back)

The 5x grabs are what put everything completely over the top for us.

Members like Drow stated that he was able to grow large and have lots of grabbing targets with them gaining land and him gaining land with those single hits.

so that's our offer. We'll agree to have a seperate policy with PDM that promotes grabbing, if you allow us to keep our policy on what us/SoF/LaF/every other alliance in the game has as a definition of tepfeeding.

Detmer, no one bottomfeeds PDM. People bottomfeed untaggeds. If you wish to start retalling for untaggeds I'm sure it would go over well. PDM will only ever get midfed or topfed.

And tan why didnt I get any FA back then!? ;) Was it an alliance decision or rogue members?

Detmer, I like your policy and respect your 'enthusiasm' in enforcing it but accepting it requires the members of an alliance as a whole to change their play style. Which is something that I'm not willing to force upon my members or even do myself, is that unfair/irrational of me?

If your alliance or any other wants to land trade (the reason you provided me with when you very callously denied my pact offer in the first place) with us and take advantage of ghost acres, we have members in RD that would gladly do so but not without a pact in place. If that makes us fluffes, assholes, pieces of fluff or whatever I am OK with that because we're protecting our land. Which is what you're doing as well but again it is at the expense of entire alliances having to conform to your policy which is drastically different than every other alliance's (past and presently in this game).
-----------------------------------------------


Of course I know more about SoF than SoFers, same you know more about RD and what our goals are than we do. I will however admit that I do not actually know/remember what Natural Selection was, nor do I honestly believe m0m0 would go out on their own (too much work!). If I did it likely would have been it's own thread with altered logs. Plus what could you do, if memory serves me right I was their commander and even I couldn't keep them from violating a pact with NA and killing llaar.

The point was that you're just being a douche troll who can't make up his mind where he should join to possibly fight us next reset and that I can make up retarded claims that need not/could not be answered too (and another key difference is I actually like SoF).

Both parties need to compromise and make some sacrifices. Fortunately I am not with any FA team, so I dont have to deal with this xD

We were working with top brass LaF officials. We FAed you guys on a senator-restricted voluntary basis (I think almost all of our senate volunteered out of good will).

We restricted who would receive FA in LaF to only the people your leaders felt could be most trusted and would be most useful with that FA. We wanted it low-key FA because we were trying to not be connected with FAing LaF, which is why we demanded all LaFers who receive aid to be untagged the whole time, and to break pacts BEFORE they tagged up LaF. The reason why we were called on it is because someone in LaF neglected to break all their pacts before tagging back up.

As I said, if you want to verify the veracity of this, ask Pang or Parallax.

Guess who was the person in PDM who pushed the hardest for this and convinced everyone else to send FA?

It was me.

Don't say we never tried to fix our relations, and point to yourselves once in awhile when it comes to pissing relations down the toilet instead of always blaming us.

TAN, it's also possible you were sending the FA as you knew SOL would hit you after they were done with us, and wanted us to last as long as possible.

Just my two cents.

Regardless TAN, the current issue is PDM's unwillingness to bend to other alliances policies. You want change? Force it, your policies are NOT GOOD for every alliance, even if you think they are. If you try to enforce them, you either die or win the war. You lost. If you want to try again by all means. If you keep losing.. either change your policy or stop whining.

Uh...SOL wasn't going to hit us afterwards. If we knew they were going to hit us, we would have just FSed them. Or, we would have opened up FAing LaF clan-wide, as it would have been in our best interest to have a strong LaF rather than a tagkilled one.

At least use arguments that make sense. Anyways, DON'T take my word for it -- ask Pang or Parallax. No point arguing this with me when you can have one of your own guys verify the truth.

IIRC everyone was flabbergasted that you were FAing us and we were guessing at your alterior motives.

The bad blood between PDM and LAF is a decade old, and so ingrained in old time members that i doubt it is possible for us to ever be friends.. not continuously squabble? Sure.. but to be friends? I doubt it.


I mean Balin remarked that he learned 'he didn't hate me as mucha s he thought' earlier in the set.. my only interactions ever with Balin were through ingame messages.. I remember sending him messages saying 'nice grabbing' asking how he would finish etc etc. Once I asked sent him 'were you getting FAd or exploiting a bug' as I was sent messages from SEVERAL people hinting that he was. He denied and it was done. If that's what it took for him to 'hate me' then the bad blood between our alliances runs very very deep.

Personally I know I have a strong dislike for Detmer, in regards to 2 servers.

It's not possible for us to be friends because of that mindset, not because it can't happen.

I tried, and my efforts were pissed upon. I guess I share partial responsibility for forgetting to tell Detmer that Pang wasn't interested in continuing a pact, but for god's sake, we FAed you guys, paid the price, and it didn't even merit a chat or a DNH?

Sure, in my opinion, our communication could have been better, and in that we are partially to blame. But ffs, take some responsibility for the downward spiral in relations.

I really thought that after I signed that 2 set pact, things were really going to change.

as much as you guys like to think we targeted PDM this set, we didn't. We were hitting everyone. There was a group of a few of us set out to mid feed, and others followed suit and lost out big. We hit FIRE, COLLAB, ICN, and some people even hit Evo.. FIRE retalled then we signed them a couple weeks later.. COLLAB and ICN complained and we immediately signed.. Evo we DNH'd as they were going to war(Evo started grabbing us BTW)

We had threads about pacting PDM on the head's forum, we set you guys to DNH one sided as we realized we had hit you more than the other alliances(due to lack of communication..) and then you guys started nuking us, harmful opping us and grabbing back. it escalated. Did we amp up grabbing after your 2 hits? Yes. Was it coincidental? Yes. Our top few guys would have hit you ALONG WITH ALL OTHER UNPACTED ALLIANCES regardless. We were grabbing. However, you gusy took it as us targetting you and escalated things farther.

Oh for fluff's sake, this is impossible.

We FAed you guys during your war with SOL. Then we signed a 2 set pact. That pact expired. It didn't occur to you at the BEGINNING of the fluffing set to put us on DNH?

That is the fluffed up mindset I'm talking about. LaF was still listed as "friend" in our embassy.

It goes to show that our definition of "friend" is different from yours.

Why can't we just all agree here that PDM bit off more then they could chew. Because thats EXACTLY what happened...

They even had a chance at a FS and didn't. Then RD hit which IDK wtf that was about. I would have been perfectly happy if PDM/LaF had a land war it was kind of fun honestly.

Not sure if any talks were done with PDM pre set, but we hardly pacted anyone with the intention to land trade. A few of us took that as 'sweet we get to midfeed'. The set before we were completely pacted out from Pang wanting us to play all-x. It was nothing personal, we were hitting everyone.

Cool. Then when I suicide on you (assuming we don't have a pact, and judging by your tone, it doesn't look like you're going to sign one), it's nothing personal. Cheers dude.

Have a good next set.

I'm not the FA brother, I am the war head. Personally I would love to farm PDM next set then tag kill you. I don't think the other heads see it my way though, unfortunately. Would I sign a pact with PDM? fluff no. I can't speak for our don or FA though.

Don't worry, you can just get RD to do it again. Some war leader you are. Almost as much of a self-gratifying coward as Du Gaulle.

I'm with LT...we might as well get it over with next set instead of dragging grudges from set to set.

ZDH the grudge with PDM is over a decade and counting.

PDM was created to be what LAF has been.. great netters who can war and back up their policies.

PDM has proven to be neither, so instead of trying to improve they have made a grudge with LAF and devolved into whiny self righteous suiciders akin to terrorists ;-)

^^ this self-satisfying, smug attitude is why we will never be friends.

I don't want to be friends with PDM.. I have 0 desire. You guys failed to make friends with either Pang, Parallax, or enshula.. who all have been Don's trying to mend ties with everyone and not anger anyone. I can understand if you have had issues with SS, Eug, myself(not DOn..) or even H4... but Para, Pang and ensh... maybe you need to look inwards friend.

Hey, got pretty close with Pang and Parallax. That's when we FAed you guys and signed a pact.

It was when enshula took over that fluff went downhill.

enshula is probably the most neutral easy to deal with Don we have ever had.

Did you ever talk to him before things escalated?

Oh, sorry. I forgot that after FAing you guys in a war we ended up paying for, and having a pact for 2 sets, the onus is COMPLETELY on us to be courteous and come groveling to your feet for something that should have been intuitive to anyone with any sense of loyalty or courtesy.

MY BAD.

2 sets and 1 nice gesutre doesn;t undoe 10 years of hostile actions. To be fair we didn't single you guys out. often when PDM has pissed us off myself and maybe 1 or two others will mid feed with the express interest of hammering PDM. I have chosen it as my strat sets after we had bad dealings with PDM as payback. This set was not that situation.

we haven't had 10 years of hostility.

in fact, up until 2 sets after SoF stomped us really hard (can't remember when -- but it was two sets after Drow's botched FS time on SoF), our relations with LaF were average. We weren't friends, but we weren't enemies either.

you are just revising history to justify your petty hatred of us.

I don't hate PDM, I just think lowly of you guys. You guys are idealists who don't grasp how others want to play and are mostly unwilling to bend. You and Detmer are atrocious alliance leaders. You guys are akin to any extremists, and that is no good.

Jeebus, give it a rest. PDM hates you, you think they suck. The end.

atrocious leaders? i'm probably the only one who held back mass-suiciding on LaF, and i *know* i'm the only one who ever tried to repair relations with LaF.

know what you're talking about first before you spit your bullfluff on here.

TBH that is more in your benefit than ours. If PDM mass suicided LAF, you wouldn't exist for long. RIVAL tried, and they were superior to PDM in every single aspect. First set LAF tag killed RIVAL and still had t100 countries. 2nd set we posted a few top countries, I was suicided out of t5 to around 40th... 3rd set we finished with 8 of 10 t10 spots, and only ebcause TIE FA'd 2 guys up.

Just to put an outside spin on this: PDM FAed LAF and SOL became aware of the networth deltas. PDM assumed SOL would hit them and chose to FS SOL.

just to make one thing clear. RD is not nor will be doing something because laf "tells" us to. If in fact pdm ends up dieing next reset again to either laf or rd or rd and laf let it be known that RD has been and is still willing to talk to pdm about repairing relations. so if we end up bending them over for round 2 its because they are unwilling to compromise with us and has nothing to do with the LT and Tan love feud goin on

Eh Tan. I'd like to get better relations personally. I respect what pang was trying to do when he was in charge then.

However, I believe the chances of it are better when you post reasonably like your last reply to me or when drow talks :P I think both our sides have a habit of saying stupid fluff to make it worse :P

But sadly I have no effect on the laf FA dept. I also don't always agree with stuff laf does :P I sometimes dislike how much we hit a certain clan :P But then I think the same about things PDM does.... anyways done rambling :P

Wrong - their determination is only a small fraction of ours. Paradigm has shown it will stand the test of time. Rival clearly has not.

Detmer your baised :P

Locket: nice post.
It's odd that tAN is being called atrocious and intractable though, given that in the past he was constantly referred to as too soft...

You need to go back in the past and find that Tan, then merge it with this Tan to form VegiTan and you will have the most powerful level of Tan imaginable. His post count might go over 9000 instantly.

How am I biased? I have shown my evidence. I would say my evidence clearly supports my point =P

Pang, lets be honest here. If a post was made about Brown Shoe Polish, you would somehow bring into the thread how everything wrong with shoe polish is bad because of SOL. And then you would talk on about how you really do like SOL and was just trying to explain why there are a few things wrong with brown shoe polish. Yes, none of it would make any sense or be related to the topic but hey- at least you got in your little jab.

Denial does not mean you don't have a problem. TRY just TRY to get through a thread without posting about SOL once. Maybe just don't post in one- it would be your best chance i think.

who doesn't hate brown shoe polish?

Yeah locket, you're probably right. I apologize to tarnava for anything insulting I might have said to him, and apologies to laf as a whole. But I am done trying to improve relations.

to tan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpLDhAqIHa0

lol