*This is not meant in any way to be inflammatory, simply informative. It seems a lot of PDMers are complaining about how LaF doesn't show them respect etc etc. All of which has an explanation that some of PDM's leadership may not be aware of due to long periods of absence from the game etc.*

This story starts approximately 8 years ago (mid 2003), ironically with Detmer and myself.

Once upon a reset, I had the #1 ranked, fattest country on the server. I was a TTR (this was during the era when TTR's were by far the most dominate netting strategy), and about 2 days away from entering stocking mode. At this time I was suicided by 2 PDM countries, ruining my reset and my fairly legitimate contention for rank 1 (a rank that I still have never achieved, that may very well have been my only opportunity).

I entered negotiations with Detmer on reparations, but was informed that I would receive nothing because "PDM does not take responsibility for suiciders". The fact that the countries were wearing the PDM tag for every single one of the hits on my country was apparently of no consequence for PDM in this matter.

At that time, I told Detmer that PDM should expect to payback for maintaining such a ridiculous stance. He seemed ok with that at the time (likely figured I was bluffing given that LaF was a "netginaing alliance", but that is merely speculation <-- this was shortly after the intense LaF/LCN war (still my favourate war)).

I kept my word, and LaF defeated PDM solidly the following reset.

*fast forward a few years later*

Exact same thing happens (this time it wasn't my country though). I entered negotiations with whoever was running PDM's FA department at that time (his name was skthe, or sythe, something to that effect, PDMers will know who I am referring to). Once again, PDM took the stance that they do not take responsibility for it (even though once again, they were tagged PDM at the time of the suicides).

Once again, I told PDM that they should expect to die over this policy, and once again LaF followed through on its promise.

*fast forward a couple years later, now we are on the EC server*.

The same thing happens AGAIN.
I enter FA negotiations with TAN.
This time PDM does not take the stance that they refuse to pay, but rather that LaF was asking for too much in reparations.

My argument was simple:
a) The reps were in compliance with the terms in the pact (same terms we signed with everyone)
b) Others had been forced to pay similar packages in the past,and did so without a fuss (TIE had to do so more than once in reset histroy, at that point).
c) The terms went both ways, and whenever LaF sucided on someone we had to pay similar rep packages, and had done so in the past without a fuss.

Eventually LaF weakened its stance and decided to accept land:Land only, we were going to forgive the 100's of millions of bushels that had been lost (the suicide was during the stocking phase). At this point PDM changed its mind and said that they weren't going to pay any more reparations (they had already paid back roughly 70% of the land lost, there were no ghost acres at this point in the game either mind you).

At which point I pointed out to TAN that PDM has done this to LaF not once, but twice before in the past. I also pointed out that given that these past decisions were all made by different people, that it was probably safe to assume that PDM's issues with not paying what they owe is a cultural issue with the alliance, and not specific to any one individual. As such, should PDM choose to continue to maintain that position, not only would LaF be forced to kill PDM AGAIN (which we did), but that LaF would officially lose all respect we had for PDM as a legitimate, established alliance. I also stated that said respect would be gone until PDM managed to re-earn it from us in some fashion.

TAN/PDM was ok with this.

And THAT, is the reason why LaF "doesn't show PDM the respect we deserve".

-H4xOr WaNgEr
LaF Political operative (for far far too long now)

I concur that I do not show PDM respect. Whenever I have ever WR grabbed as a techer, there has been two constants in who I gun for. PDM, and ICN.

cool story bro

^ Bobby please don't act like the typical internet tough guy/douche, it's not becoming.

Oh BTW, the other alliances I have always used as my 'go to' alliances have all seemed to fold.. STONES, ROGUE, NEO...

PDM headed down that road?

I doubt ICN will fold, they are just incompetent.

it was a cool story, wtf do u want from me:P!

And Patty says *I* am the one with an axe to grind from last decade.

It's not from last decade, it's a continuation. PDM repeats their douchebaggery time and time again, and in their eyes, we repeat our bullying. It's a two way street.

I don't get it...do you guys want PDM to fold and leave the game?

what would that do anybody

that is the lameist thing I have ever heard a alliance leader say in this age of earth is that they either don't care that an entire allice is going to dissapear, or that they want them to lol

No. I'd lose my land source.

I think my opinions on pdm and how their leadership acts are widely known so i wont comment on that. I'd disagree with you on ICN however, for me icn are very honourable. They literally did everything the pact asked of them over the whole rival suicider thing a few years back. And their leaders took alot of flak for doing it, and to have the strength to ignore that will forever have my respect.

you sound like a teenager with no brains

glad i'm not an FA and have to deal with your immature person :)

My only issue with ICN is they helped NEO kill my country(along with yours) when mine was the last one that deserved to die. IIRC H4 and SG had hit more than I had.

This might sound hard but if PDM isn't going to help themselves, why should anyone else? You can't place the fate, and blame of your alliance strictly at the feet of another.

When have you ever known Laf to engage someone in perpetual farming/warring in an attempt to force them from the server? That hasnt been done since e2025 days by anyone least of all laf...

I think everyone can appreciate the delicate state of the game and how important players are to it, esspecially now.

I love it...there are very few alliances left

yet you guys hate each other and some of you want to destroy some competely

all you will do is hurt any work Pang and Co. are doing to keep this game alive lol

game can't be kept alive with alliance after alliance leaves

that will cause you land grabers to start land grabbing everything on sight and cause the rest of the people who don't want to war to leave, it is a vicious cycle that none of you care about lol

Tarnava just stated that when he has hated an alliance they dissapear which means he and LaF couldn't give a rat's behind if PDM dissapears

this means they will keep doing what they are doing until they hope PDM bows to their will and their policies or folds up

that DOESN'T HELP the gamy you moron but hey what do I know.... only logic that if you keep beating an alliance down it will only do more harm then good

I said target, as in they are good land sources. It's a business transaction, not hate.

BTW LaF ran me from the game so you lost me and many other pdm members when you decied to kill all of PDM for thatguy's suisiding

so LaF helped out there huh? *shurgs*

*btw that was my first set back in 3 years and you guys didn't care to listen to crap I remember that VERY clearly*

I don't expect anything from pdm what so ever (regarding staying in the game, or anything else).

A bunch of you have been talking about how laf doesn't show pdm respect, now you can't say that you don't know why.


Oh FYI, when you guys started running multies on us (just before the EC server opened) stating that you were attacking us to get RD to leave you alone... That didn't help either.

then run pdm from the game and go farm another alliance *shurgs*

Someone should summarize H4's post for TGD since he apparently doesn't understand the point he was trying to make.

Oh ya I remember that.

PDM's classic 'fight fire with fire approach'

You hold a LOT of hatered don't you? I didn't like you during the thatguy incident and I like you even less now surprising :D

TGD if you are too weak to look after yourselves, why should I do it for you? I'm no bleeding heart socialist.

Cool story bro.

You forgot the part where we paid almost all of it back, and only stopped after SS started the insults after I whined a bit too much. But keep the spin and omitions up, because it makes you guys in LaF look like even bigger douches when you intentionally neglect adding context in order to make your argument sound stronger.

heh, I do remember our conversations in 2003 pretty vividly.

Earth was a different game then.

You hold a LOT of hatered don't you? I didn't like you during the thatguy incident and I like you even less now surprising :D

repost 5 minutes later? lol

Rofl, Tarnava in how way implied that he and laf try to run people out of the game, he was pointing out a coincidence\an observation he has made regarding alliances he has enjoyed grabbing in the past. What you are trying to argue he implied requires a major assumptive leap.

And did you really just try to pin it as being laf's fault that pdm got killed for their own refusal to pay back land you guys succeeded off us, while we were pacted?

Does pdm even to this day still believe they were in the right for refusing to pay us reparations? And that lad was in the wrong for warring pdm over it, even when I told your leaders we would do as much.

Wow... Hah, so I guess pdm is still the same alliance it was during all of those examples I pointed out.

can you 2 lots of crazed psycotic's just build a bridge and get over it?

man... i thought i was a forum whinger... pdm and laf got me beat hands down:p

then kill it H4

Destroy it to the ground then see what happens

Jesus you hate PDM so much destroy it for all eternity

PDM paid you back for most of land

you guys are the greediest alliance I have every seen

thatguy ruined a FEW countrys, Laf Ruined ALL of PDM

a FEW for the ALL

sounds fair..... guess it is in your mind, guess that is why you were a horrible Don

LT's opinion does not represent LaF's stance as a whole.

People seem to skip the whole part about PDM suiciders and repeated avoiding reps, which is a social culture standard of this game.

If it was another alliance doing this, all you of would be hating PDM.

TAN I think you need to take the time to read my initial post more thorough, because I very much did highlight the fact that you paid off a majority of it in that case.

Nice try though

you make it seem like EVERY country in PDM suisides EVERY reset

I have been with PDM For 10 years and I have seen VERY few suisides sorry....guess you have fogotten history

yet H4 You harbor DEEP hatred for PDM not being your land farms the next set

like I just stated you ruined ALL of pdm for a FEW of your countrys

then you wanted to ruin ALL of PDM the next set for 0 of your countries that set

once again? is that fair?

Since you don't seem to care, keep running people from the game with your policies and hatred, It'll make EE's a lot better place with fewer and fewer players

I was pretty much doing 90% of the dealings over that suicide, so if you think laf didnt listen you're suggesting i didnt listen. Which i'll be honest is a destinct possibility. I dealt predominantly with tan, who i found inhospitable at the best of times.

TAN who from the outset said that he would not honour the unap between LaF and PDM. I dropped my demands much to the dismay of a few of the people suicided that reset. (remember this was fairly late in the reset where $/bushels were much more valuable than land, and i accepted pure land reps losing laf atleast 1 top 10 that reset, as well as a fair chunk of nw to people finishing lower down). The problem with land is it has diminishing value, and pdm were paying very slowly. I know i along with many other LaF leaders have given up our countries to pay reps over the years. Very few in pdm were willing to do the same apparently. I was pissed at them, and tan got pissed at me being pissed at them, and said he wouldnt pay anymore.

I addapted to pdm's situation more in that reps deal, than perhaps any other reps negotiations during my time as leader of laf and TAN turned around and said i was being too demanding and they would hault all reps.

I know pdm dont consider that i did them any favours. In truth it wasnt my intention to do them any favours, i settled for less because i accepted that pdm were unlikely to pay the full extent that was owed to fully repair the damage done.

But i never in any way looked to force pdm from the server, i just knew pdm had pissed off my members, and they had pissed me off during a reset while we were pacted, breaking the terms of that pact in the process. So i fs'd them.

I know pdm will still hate me and think im a fluff for it, but thats tough, id rather pdm be annoyed at me than not look after the tag i was leading.

Rofl ok then tbd... Laf had no right to fs pdm over your suicides and you refusal to provide us reparations. The fact that that is he single biggest legitimate reason to fs an alliance is of no consequence when it co
Esmto pdm. Because hey, it's pdm, they shouldn't be expected to pay reps for damage they cause, or uphold their pacts, they should be able to do whatever they want and anyone that gets caught in the cross fire should just shrug it off. Cause hey... That pdm.

I think I understand now

</sarcasm>

TGD reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElJFYwRtrH4

wow did we repay Reps

YES

did you want Pdm to be your land farms the entire next set to fix a FEW of your countries...yes

Your actions will run people from the game, are you that farkingt ignorant? are you really?

Many people in Pdm left over that, rather you care or not, that is less players and less land in this dead game...sorry you can't see straight, like I said you were a horrible ass Don

God I hate typing on my iPhone, stupid auto correcting earth terms and small keyboard

You're a weak little whiner. Go cry in a corner and wait for someone to rescue you.

you keep saying "I don't want players to leave"

then do something about it through actions

how about actually sitting down both fluffing alliances and doing something and ending the damn hatred huh?

or are both sides so damen childish they can't do that? is that neutral enough for you H4? You bring up fluff that was from 6 years ago and even though Pang one of your advisors and the co?-creater of this game wanted a fresh start you could not for the life of you do that

It doesn't matter if it's one country that suicided, your alliance is held responsible because he is YOUR member.

And paying 70% of the reps is no where close to 100% of the reps AGREEDED upon.

PDM is a joke.

no Tarnova i'm stating the obvious

your actions ran people from the game

if you want to keep playing change how you play

you don't want to keep playing...keep doing what you are doing all there is to it :D

God I hate talking on the boards

your egos on here are bigger than Sheen's and that is saying a lot

no what...keep hating PDM and ruining the game for your alliance because PDM plays differently *shurgs* only a FEW

A FEW



ONCE AGAIN A FEW of your countrys were damaged...you wanted to destroy PDM not just 1 set but 2

you can't see past your own selfishness it is sad

do you really think anybody would of given you props for claiming all of the top 10 with farming PDM anyways? Get real finishes and stop crying over thatguy suiside :)

It waas never amount the amount of countries hurt that reset. The amount of damage done only had an impact on the speed at which i wanted reps to be repaid. Atleast while i was don i took quite a traditional political view on things, one such view was that pact breaking was inexcusable and should face the most severe reaction, that being either mass farming or fs.

There was a situation in 05?06? i forget, where LaF believe itself to be pacted to MD with a unap, md fs'd us i cant remember the reasons exactly, although nothing relating to that reset. LaF members were more upset about that than anything that i can remember while being in laf (and went on to fs md a few sets later and win resoundingly). Mass suicides, being fs'd for no reason, any of that, it doesnt come close to the annoyance generated by pact breakers.

God can you guys not read...

you wanted to destroy pdm for 2 sets total...

*sighs* oh well bottom line you guys lost more countrys to land grab more land for the server and hurt the game in the long run that is the conlcusion of your guys wanted few land for an entire set

TGD: bots and mass multies in the early 00's ran people from the server. Expecting alliances to abide by their pacts and fs'ing them when they dont, isnt running people from the server. Infact if any alliance in this game didnt fs alliances that suicided them through pacts and didnt pay the appropriate reps, i would suggest it would be them that would be losing members.

oh well.. i'm tired, my foot is in pain and you guys don't care if you hurt, destroy, maim an alliance or run people from the game as long as you all have fun

I'll post again in a few months when LaF goes after another alliance causing problems (because it can't and won't always be PDM something will give eventually either PDM will tire you guys out or you will have pdm merge into another alliance further hurting the game)

No i didnt, PDM fs'd laf the reset after i fs'd them. LaF was in 100% netgaining mode, PDM heads decided to fs/suicide laf because they felt that LaF fs'ing you for pact breaking was wrong.

You cant cry to me for killing pdm after pdm fs'ed laf. PDM's leaders did that not me.