what if PDM suicides on evo countries when you are pacted during their stock phase and then refuse to pay up?

how would you "diffuse" that situation mr. tension diffusing master ;P

And if the countries doing the grabbing could manage to keep up with all-explore non republics in landsize, then both countries could gain from an exchange of grabs. But if one country is much smaller than an all-explore country, then their lack of landsize harms not only their own country but ruins the ability of the country they hit to benefit from the exchange.

If you're going to claim that your style of growth benefits everyone involved, then that style of growth better actually give you growth superior to exploration.

even if every alliance drops pacts with each other.

PDM would, by history, suicide LaF with any excuse. And then LaF would hit PDM.

We'd wait until the pact expired (which would be pretty soon after they broke it by suiciding, and refused to pay reps), then FS them.

Wow seems Forgotten has issues lol

It seems in your mind, we have PDM members suiciding on LaF every set left and right lol

nukevil: thank you.

that's what LaF did after GoSu suicided on LaF back in 2003 (it's all coming back to me now) and PDM refused to pay. we FSed them the following reset (because we didn't renew the pact)

after the FS though, PDM wanted to get revenge and suicided on LaF on a future netting reset. and the cycle continued until PDM/LaF tensions are the way it is today.

the cycle never broke because PDM thinks they are in the right, and LaF thinks they are in the right.

as h4 stated (and i now remember), PDM was the first one to ever start worsen LaF/PDM relations. we were LDPed for the longest time (starting from their PoW days).

we never asked to get suicided in our stocking phase by a long time pacted ally.

Seems Hanlong believes that we paid 0 reps for Thatguys incident

when according to Det/Drow and either H4 or SS PDM paid 70% of it back during the set

Nuke, would you of required PDM to have many if not most of their members the following set provide free land for you and ruin many member's set to repay the damange of thatguy? that is the cruch of the issue that Hanlong seems to have a problem with anyways lol

In my view, ordering your members to esstincally create a country for the sole purpose of providing even for half or even 1/4 of the set land is essentionally ruins their set, ruins their point, and is pointless to them, many people had little time as it is to play lol

i'm not talking about thatguy's incident. like i said i wasn't around for thatguy's incident.

i was the head of FR for LaF in 2003 when the very first incident of PDM suiciding (like i said it was GoSu who did it), resulted in 0 reps paid. not even 1 acre or 1 turret or $1 was sent to LaF.

the second time or third time you did it i wasn't around to know the details. but from the sounds like it you guys repeatedly suicided LaF and never paid in full the second time.

it was like deja vu again i'm assuming, and again i wasn't around to have anything details on the "thatguy" incident other than it sounds like deja vu to me.

wow you are bringing up GoSu

so Hanlong..we are supposed to....somehow..someway...use furtureistic technology to read our members' minds to find out that they are going to go ape fluff insane and suiside?

GoSu also suicided on RD if I remember because he was done with the game and he was banned from PDM by Comwood thereafter as Thatguy is banned from PDM now

NO alliance can control their members to the extent that we know they are goint to go bat fluff insane, you guys have to learn to drop grudges lol

But that's not what happened in this situation, now is it? You're bringing up something that happened ~8 years ago to justify LaF's recent actions against PDM. I would think that that wouldn't matter, being that this is a different game and all.

Both alliances made what the other alliance would call 'mistakes', and both alliances refuse to back away from their policies (aside from PDM no longer having harmful spy ops in their policy). And, unless one of you backs off, or unless PDM makes friends with an alliance that can help them against LaF, then LaF will continue to farm/destroy PDM until PDM loses its capacity to hold its membership together.

That is my point Nuke

LaF won't drop their grudges

Both members that suicided are banned from PDM. No alliance can do anything if a member, that plays the game really well, suicides, there is nothing to 100% prevent it.

it's not a grudge.

we were over it after our FS after the GoSu incident.

as a casual observer who doesn't know the "thatguy incident" it looks like it was a habitual thing.

i can't control my own members either. but many times i sacrificed my own country to be used as land reps when i was the Don of LaF and/or the head FR of LaF. as a leader you have that responsibility to pay for your members transgressions.

if you cared so much about your own country, then don't be a VP/President/Head/etc of your alliance.

it's good that you banned GoSu and thatguy. but both times comwood/detmer/etc. should've paid the reps instead of paying us none and 70% for those instances.

There's this thing called Advisor updates, which then you could see if a guy has been storing turns and cash for no reason, and maybe even military tech, or weapons tech during a netting set.

or really hostile towards an alliance on his posts, or just signs of doing so.

Alliances that have enough structure, wouldn't need to control their members. I'm pretty sure, heart to heart, all LaF's vets would not suicide anyone during the reset for any reason, we are structured, and culturally in control, we hold each other responsible.

Sure, there are new members that would require keeping an eye on, but that's what should happen.

Sometimes you can be asking for outstanding reps that are highly unreasonable and if you do the other alliance isn't even going to pay back what is logically owes you because you won't budge

It is a 2 way street and something happened that reps were not paid (if in fact that was the case)

You forget Hanlong, you have a reasponsibilty to your alliance and PDM's leaders have a responsibilty to theirs. That is what it comes down too

You guys need to find someway to get past your grudges or like I stated PDM is going to hassle you over and over again, or you will eventually run people from the game it will be who ever breaks first and both outcomes are bad outcomes

i'm not using something 8 years ago as the reason for today. that's the last thing i remembered about PDM. like i said i've been gone for a looong time. i can't talk with first hand experience things that happened in the recent history.

i was just piecing together from what h4 said and whta pdm members say that it looks like ever since the first GoSu incident where it was clearly PDM shafting LaF over with no recourse, no one ever bothered to back away.

i'm fine with backing away, but you guys should realize by being the first aggressors in a 8 year long deterioration of PDM/LaF original friendship into what it is today, you guys shouldn't so trigger happy towards LaF if you really wanted peace.

And don't blame 100% on LaF for PDM losing their members, maybe some PDM members left because they were tired of PDM's leadership, or the lack of.

we had a fluffing pact for the GoSu incident you retard. it wasn't unreasonable at all. if you guys thought it was unreasonable, then say so during the pact signing process and not after you suicided on our asses. it was outlined in our fluffing pact and you refused to pay up because PDM was acting like major douchebags that time. and sorry again for only bringing up the 2003 incident, but like i said i can only say things in which i have first hand experience about.

you just can't admit that your leadership fluffed up big time back in 2003 when they were one of the major alliances at that time and because of those boneheaded moves made PDM into the crap alliance it is today.

We have done this several times in the past, but not to entire alliances, at least, not for the occasional late-set LG. This is mostly because retaliating LGs after most of our countries have already converted and jumped is rather detrimental to a country's resources. So, we ask the offending alliance to let us retal next reset, which usually happens. Sometimes, we'll wait for several resets because the offending alliance jumps into war.

However, we have held alliances to their transgressions for multiple resets, especially due to suiciding. LaF has done this to Evo at least once in our history due to suiciding, and we have gotten reps from LaF in a subsequent reset due to a LaF member suiciding us. It's just business.

Great at least I have you acknowledging that LaF is responsible for the loss of members to the game

finally :)

btw there hasn't been a lack of leadership for awhile now, but thanks :D

arguing on AT is fun, really kills the day

lol Nuke just countered forgotten's statement that none of its members suicide

no PDM caused a lot of LaF vets to leave because of their boneheaded moves.

that was part of the reason why i left the first time, because idiots in alliances like PDM would suicide on my country for no fluffing reason.

why do you think i was like "fluff this, this game is lame?" because i come back, it is just as lame as last time it looks like.

I should probably mention that that incident happened about 6 years ago...

and i like it how you TGD conveniently forgot to include how nuke himself said LaF paid the reps for it.

if you guys paid the reps for GoSu, we'd might still be DPs to this day...

PDM was one of our longest pacted allies at that point

if you guys didn't have a repeat incident of suiciding us, we'd might be uNAPped every reset to this day.

but you guys always do boneheaded moves to LaF and then wonder why it's all happening to you.

stop nuking us and harmful spy op and topfeeding us and we will stop grabbing you.

it's very simple.

don't spoil my victory!

talk things out first?

seems like on both sides there was not much talking? lol

as i'm not an FA let alone playing that is up to you guys to settle

but I have this to say, it will probably not look good on LaF if your members start heavily LGing to looking like Farming next set without provocation :)

.

I should also mention that I'm talking about now, culturally, you can promote and prevent suiciders.

LaF didn't get to where they are today in terms of netgaining ability because we just tell everyone to netgain.

We got there because we have plenty of competitive players that wants to out do each other, so over time, the quality of players raise, and new recruits join because they want to netgain better, and do so because of the environment we provide.

What environment does PDM provide? A place where you don't recognize traditional and cultural policies of this game, a place where the alliance isn't held responsible for your actions, or what you guys say, a place to have fun?

There are people in the world who wants to make the most money, or those that wants to help others, or those that fight to protect, and well, some that fight to fight, or rebel (imag, LOL). But PDM seems like the serial killers of the world, they don't care, and they'll do whatever they want, because they want it. And when they get caught, it's always not their fault.

good.

you realized i started my argument this reset with PDM topfeeding LaF twice when LaF didn't do anything to you guys.

first time detmer called it an accident.

second time tells me it is not an accident.

you are right, it will not look good for LaF to start heavy LGing PDM next reset without provocation. i would've promised you i won't but since you guys are driving me away, it's up to the other LaF heads to decide this. you should ask them what they think.

this reset you provoked us first. just like how you provoked us in the GoSu incident for no reason, and most likely the "thatguy" incident. maybe you will learn next reset to stop aggravating LaF without any cause.

and if you do aggravate LaF first, and then you get farmed, just suck it up and stop fluffing all over AT.

and remember you always had the option of diffusing the situation by accepting my 3 offers of pacting (and one of them was multi-reset pacting).

your genius leaders decide it was better to not say yes.

that's all it took. a simple fluffing "yes". if you don't want to accept it, then it's your own goddamn fault for the actions sowed upon you. you chose your own destiny.

some people just dont get it.

I wish Comwood would come back just to see his face when he learns of what PDM is today.

comwood was the one that told me to shove it when GoSu suicided on two of our top 10ers in 2003 when we had a multi-year renewed LDP and there was like 0 hits exchanged between LaF and PDM.

he probably set the wrong trend for PDM to follow for the future. seems like they are learning very well...

One of the things I've heard of why PDM started the suiciding on LaF 8 years ago, was because they couldn't beat RD, and they thought that RD and LaF is basically one alliance, so they'll hurt LaF instead.

Is that true?

no that was the "thatguy" incident. the RD/PDM/LaF love triangle was 5-ish years ago to my knowledge when i was retired.

i remember why GoSu suicided us. it was verbal sparring comparing e-penises for top 10 spots between LaF members and him (he had a top 25 worthy country himself).

he was just a sore loser that couldn't beat those guys in a fair netgaining competition so he resorted to suiciding towards the end of the reset when he realized he couldn't back up his egotistical claim ingame that he was the better netter.

i had friendly banter with top netters in the past from other aliances like waser or from my own alliance like nof/cm/aqua. if they beat me, i try harder next reset. GoSu was the only one that thought to "suicide on their asses because you got beat".

and comwood was the only leader to defend such a imbecile.

i remember those days. PDM and LaF were allies and we had members going into each other's IRC channels to chat about netting. back then PDM had guys who are decent netters and we had some friendly competition. that was the part of the game i remember which was fun for me, that we sadly don't have anymore.

when GoSu got teased by LaF members in IRC verbally for "not being g0su enough" because they were going to beat him and should rename his handle to "ch0b0" he took it personal and used ingame actions.

those boneheaded moves plus comwood's dumb decision to tell LaF to shove it instead of paying their long time ally reps over that suicide (while still keeping GoSu as a core member of PDM) is what originally blew up the tensions.

maybe those LaF members should never have teased GoSu? who knows, but the fact remain that he used ingame actions and PDM refused to pay for it.

and i apologize to any newer PDM members who just thought LaF just always bullied PDM and farmed them.

i can see why you are mad, you aren't responsible for the actions of old dumbass members 8 years ago.

but until your leaders start fessing up and take a policy approach of trying to fix relations with LaF instead of aggravating them, we will never fix this.

and i was willing to fix it, but you guys make me so fed up that i wish you luck in that the next head FR of LaF will take the approach of wanting to fix it also.

imho comwood because of the original LaF/PDM tensions and the fact that PDM lost originally, he trained the next generation of PDM leaders to carry a fervent anti-LaF agenda which they pushed.

the whole crap about RD/LaF connections was just fabrications they made up to brainwash the newer members and leaders into having a united clause for "good" to continue on the fight with LaF.

i just can't believe people to this day in PDM are still effected by that garbage. the more i think back and i connect the dots, the more i prove to myself why the politics and game environment for the alliance server is toxic like hell and convinces me i made the right decision to leave

Ancient history is great and all but we signed a multi-set pact in an effort to cleanse the bad blood. We even contacted you this set asking for leniency on a pact violation and you agreed to it implying we were still on pact terms!

From: hanlong
To: Detmer
Subject: RE: Apparently
Date: Feb 13th, 07:34
Message Body:
lol ok, that's fine

----------------------- Original Message -----------------------
one of my members grabbed you... he didn't say anything other than that he was half asleep and messed up... maybe he is looking for leniency? I forget what pact terms we do but it was some sort of accident so if you guys stop around L:L that would be cool.

Sure, it turns out that was just trickery on your part to make us think we were pacted so you could exploit us later but until you guys pulled a huge fluff move on us we actually tried to mend relations. So you can point the finger squarely at yourself.

our multi-set pact expired this reset. you didn't renew it with me.

i said it was fine, because that accident by drow was just one grab and you said it was a mistake. it wasn't a big deal. that's why i replied the way i did and we just retaled it once and got our land back.

it was #449 doing the second grab that caused suspicion.

that's why i asked for the 100th time who the fluff #449 is, and you still refuse to answer such a simple question. because all reset he was trying to undermine LaF/PDM relations that we clearly were trying to improve.

was it comwood coming back and being displeased that we were trying to fix fluff?

i'm being serious here, i really want to know

Hanlong you weren't around for it but PDM did FS us for "Being RD's netting tag".

So why not say "we don't have a pact" to which I could have talked about renewing. Why would #449 grabbing you a second time cause any suspicion if we weren't pacted?

#449 is someone you have never heard of. He is in no way prominent and hasn't had much experience with anything other than all-explore before.

you sure he's not like comwood or some other old vet who came back under an alias? i'm willing to do some ip matching or research or whatever.

i'm fine if #449 was truly a new member. then i can chalk it up to just unfortunate timing of his actions that ruined any attempt of peace between us.

i was busy that time. i have a job as a server software architect of which we had capacity issues so i was working 9am-4am shifts trying to find last minute hotfixes to optimize and stabilize the code. i just replied the shortest answer possible, which is why you just got a "lol ok" response.

i even addressed this publically on AT. so i'm sorry about not clarifying about the pact and whatever, i had more important rl issues to worry about at the moment.

you can ask sanct/icn. i had to come home late at night to fix our FA issues with them and ended up talking to their euro/australian FA because by the time i got home the north american FAs all went to sleep.

if you can't cut me some slack and not always assume the worst out of my actions (because you are hell bent to prove that this was all planned), then i don't know what to say to you other than i'm happy that i'm leaving so you can deal with other LaF heads.

and believe me that was the last thing i wanted to do, to do fluffing FA work for LaF at 4am in the morning after a long day of work when i should be sleeping instead.

People make mistakes... somethings just seem *really* coincidental though... surely you understand our extreme skepticism... we have little choice but to assume the worst right now...


I am certain this guy is not Comwood unless he has moved to the other side of the world...

well as long as you keep on assuming the worst, then the worst will keep on happening.

remember we were warring SOL two resets ago and then you guys did later and we shared spy ops?

you forgot to turn that part off the next reset and i saw my own country got suicided by an untagged seconds after a PDM vet uploaded my spy op onto boxcar (shared via boxcar).

it was quite a sight, but i didn't assume the worst of PDM and just let it go. plus i don't care about my country anymore, i'm beyond that point of caring, so i dropped it. i was just here to keep other LaF members from not quitting this game by protecting them.

if i can let that go, you surely can let your conspiracy theories go?

how about letting suicides from 3-4 sets ago and 5-6 years ago go as well


You guys keep believing that PDM suicides you every set with a throng of members doing it

we already let everything go, its the fact that you guys started to aggravate us with #449 that was the root of all the problem.

if you guys are willing to drop everything for next reset i will do it also and we'd start all new again, and hopefully the next time there will be communication at every step.

but too bad i still don't want to come back, so you really have to deal with it with LT or SS or whoever takes the head FR role for LaF next reset. i can tell them to do it and hopefully they take my advice.

Did you farm that country? If so I don't know or care if it was a PDM vet =P

but that is a good point... I do remember sending you FA that ultimately got us killed... way to repay us!

And I assumed the best and then you started farming us... clearly that doesn't work...

i normally hate getting involved in earth politics but for the love of god please stop posting, TGD

#449 did a single land grab before you guys went after us... how can you keep going back to him?

no i SS him once. he had 4 hits DR, two hits from evo and 2 hits from SoF. after the 5th hit as most landgrabbers know, the grab returns fall down to another tier in which made him not worth grabbing anymore so i moved on. (you always have that 3,5,7,9,11 tiers, that untagged was no good return wise after the 5 hit tier)

i won the aliance server as a bottomfeeding tyranny techer back in 2004-5 so i how to grab correctly.

he chose me to suicide.

i remember that also. you sent us FA and got killed for it. that's why i gave you the benefit of the doubt when i got suicided. i just found it funny how your spy op sharing gave it away.

so if we both assumed the best, and #449 was the culprit, and you are adamant to claim he's a nobody, why can't we chalk it up as #449's fault and start over again? this time with better communication with the next FR of LaF and you?

Hanlong: GoSu suicided on us over an issue he had on the limited server with a couple LaF members. It was a case of issues crossing servers.

It is still 100% unclear how #449 started this if we didn't have a pact...

like i said i did not order anyone to farm PDM.

our members took #449's actions (the second topfeed by PDM) as invitation that we aren't pacted and grabbed PDM the way they knew how (17 hits in 34 hours). i did not teach them this, they probably learned this from past PDM/LaF tensions.

we got ingame messages like this from #449:

"Consider this as a retal of your other Laf member's attack. He is to big for me to retal."

he sent that literal message to one of our all-x. seriously? cross alliance retals?

he apparently sent harmful spy ops all reset at us.

seriously?

he grabbed multiple LaF members unprovoked all reset.

seriously.. single land grab?

how come you can't admit that he was a major douchebag?

he even multitapped other alliances like a dumbass too.

i can see you are keeping PDM's traditions alive by continuing to defend member actions that clearly are in the wrong.