I thought I'd make a post here since apparently, more than just EEVIL have accused Fist of "farming" them. I think we probably have the strictest grabbing policies in the game, so I just thought I'd ask for your guys opinions on our policies.

1. No more than 1 hit per Fist member on any established alliance within a 72 hour period (and unlike some clans, we actually enforce policies internally)
2. We'll give you a DNH if we've grabbed you over 10 times (15 for larger clans) and you ask for one (this is provided you aren't grabbing as equally as much or doing something else to piss us off)
3. If we have more than our "normal" amount of grabbing members (ie. between 4 and 6) we'll tighten our policies
4. We accept 72 hours retal windows (provided you let us do the same) and land:land (once again, if you give us the same courtesy) and have a simple and easy-to-understand set of retal policies
5. Unlike some clans, we do not allow grabbing alliances at war even when we had advance knowledge of the FS as well as not-so-great relations with these clans

Obviously we have some exceptions to these policies, such as allowing double taps and farming of people who regularly multi-tap us or have decided to take advantage of us while we go to war, but this applies to approximately 3 people on the server atm.

So, my question to you is: How is it possible for an alliance to be "farmed" by Fist?

With no multi-taps, 72h grabbing windows per alliance and very few grabbers, how is it that alliances with far more lenient grabbing rules (or rules that go unenforced) manage to complain about being farmed by us? Why is it that people who GDI farm untaggeds off the server throw such a hissy fit when they get grabbed once? With ghost acres, why is it that people still think that grabbing can not be mutually beneficial? It just takes some brains, such as a very basic understanding of how networth affects grabbing returns.

Looking at the news between you and EEVIL, I don't blame them for hitting you. It's true that you seem to have stuck to the letter of the above policy, but there was definitely some aggressive land grabbing going on.

When you LG aggressively, people will get upset. It doesn't matter what policies you say you're following to keep everything "fair", you're still putting them at a disadvantage and if you push them too hard they will go to war.

You were taking a lot of land from them. For whatever reason, they weren't able to retal effectively. I see no problem with defining that as farming.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

I wasn't referring specifically to EEVIL here, I understand EEVIL's point of view and in the future we're going to be a bit stricter about hitting much smaller clans. Except for EEVIL, because they seem keen to harbour RD fluffwits who take out their own mistakes on us.* We're happy to keep grabbing them, in fact I'm kind of tempted to make an exception to our 72 hour rule for them.

I'm talking about some alliances with between 15-25 members, all of whom we grabbed less than 10 times this set. One I was particularly surprised about because we had no retalling disputes with them, they retalled everything and got their land back on every hit...

* Mr Charcoal - grabbed us, got fluff returns because he doesn't know how to grab, gets retalled and then grabs us 3 times as we get FSed. After getting retalled, he goes for another quad tap which we retal, only to get FSed by EEVIL
Mr Lime - multi-taps us, gets retalled in hits authorised by his clan leaders, gets mad about not knowing his clans policies and suicides us

But I bring those up but this is not about EEVIL, this is about mid-sized clans. If you're playing in a clan with more than 15 members, do you think our grabbing policy is fair?

Who? It's hard to give an opinion without knowing what alliances you're talking about.



I'm in iMagNum. We don't have problems like this.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

if you dont have problems like that then dont post here ;)

check our news, if you're lucky you'll find out which clan Smikke means :)

meh RD people never learned to play properly ;)

fair land grabbing, regardless of how "aggressive" it is, should never be considered farming
that said, though, if a clan can't retal, even one hit will upset them

That's idiotic. He posted here asking for people's opinions, I decided to offer mine. If he doesn't want the opinions of people who "don't have problems like that" then he'll only get negative opinions because by definition anyone who does see themselves as having this problem will view it as unfair.

He came here looking for an opinion, it doesn't matter to me if he gets good ones or not. I asked for the information I need to fulfill his request for a proper opinion. I'm not going to go out of my way to wade through all of Fist's news for this reset and figure out who he's talking about though. It doesn't matter that much to me if his query gets addressed properly.

That's the opposite of what's true. There's no such thing as "unfair" landgrabbing because we all start every reset on equal footing. If someone has an advantage, it's because they played better than you. To use an advantage you've earned isn't unfair in any way.

Therefore farming is always "fair"... but it's still farming.

The policies that Fist has in effect do not effect "fairness". They're simply self-imposed limits that Fist hopes will prevent anyone from being pushed far enough that they think it's worth going to war. But the fact is, if you're taking a lot of land from one alliance, it doesn't matter if it's done by 3 attacks every day or 1 attack every 3 days. The damage is the same, and if you push someone too far they'll complain and fight back.

I don't think "farming" is an inaccurate label just because you guys had guidelines for how often you could hit.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

hehe i remember in 2002/2003 I used to define farming of small clans as something around 0.25 hits per member per day for regulating LGing and when we put clans on DNH....

that can be a lot of hits depending on clan size :p

1:1
2+:KILL

sounds fair ;)

assume your per member means the other clans members, not your own? interesting thought.

yea, per the other clans members

that number was only ever used internally to set clans on DNH ourselves before they started getting pissy :)

It looks like we were below 0.25 for the clan in question, and that's with more turns.

*rant about the game being too anti-grabbing*

Fooglmog wins the thread.

The rest of you should just suicide.

tl:read the rest

Well, your #'s of grabs per member are either wrong, or not policed very well.
I can say for certain that some mid sized clans have been tagged for more grabs then your policy allows.
Unless this is a new policy..(i mean NEW this set)

Curious to see examples?

I just ran through our news with PDM for the set, we have one double tap - the only violation of our 72h policy with you guys.

If that's "not policed very well," how would you describe your 5 RoRs (within 5 days) that weren't related to any policy disputes? (ie. the 48 vs 72 hour thing)

And I'm not saying that to attack PDM/you, just throwing it up to highlight that we do enforce the rule relatively well.

And one more post to clarify... obvious when I said "hit" I meant "grab"

Retals are not included ;)

So...then, your 'double tap' should be excused..?(not policed)

When we are RoR'ed..we will use FFR...

Umm that was the last double tap by the member all set, so you tell me whether our "policing" worked.

Obviously it's impossible to get a 100% mistake free reset or to control your members 100%.

Fairness is in the eye of the beholder.

That being said, I don't like to see a couple of countries from clan A grabbing clan B multiple times in 1 set, regardless of the time frame. So if country x from clan A grabs 3 countries from clan B in one set with 72h between each grab, that still pisses me off. Especially of there are 2 or 3 other countries from clan A doing the same thing.

So fair or not, that is irrelevant. It's how you're perceived.

dont play if you dont like being grabbed or get so much def that is not worth being grabbed

because seriously, grabbing is part of the game, heck the admins even stated so (indirectly) by bringing back ghost acres
and unlike every other clan, we limit our hits, we dont multipletap tagged clan, we dont farm untaggeds. if thats not fair, n00b friendly and not not-destructive to the game then tell me what is..

at fooglmog: you dont need to know the alliances name to post your oppinion about our retal policy. Smikke simply stated that its possible to retal without being d*ckheads

Akula funny how I remember you doing 20x demo 2 sets ago and fist never did anything to you for them.

No one LIKES being grabbed so by your statement, not many would be left here.

Defense is pretty much irrelevant and there are always countries out there that can break you.

The truth is that if you are going to be grabbing, be prepared for the consequences, whether its one hit on a tag or 20. Who cares if YOU think your policy is fair or not. Its the country or tag on the receiving end that will decide if they think its fair or not, and what they are going to do about it.

yeah well, its not like there are many left as it is. but if we want the community to grow again your unfair policies wouldnt help.
we established our policies for the good of the whole game, not just our personal benefit or whatever other reasons there might be

and defence matters, who wants to lose 1m jets over 500a?...

MY unfair policies ?

I havent made any policies in a few resets.

However, I would think overhitting smaller alliances doesnt help a whole lot.

your in the sense of "not ours", its a generalization

fist wont be around much longer.............................

Why are you being secretive about this? Is it because the pretext for this post is made-up and no one's actually complained? That's the only explanation I can think of.

The purpose of this post seems to be Fist proving that they're not farming people. I think that it's possible to follow the policy you've outlined and still farm people. So, I want to know what alliances have complained so that I can determine if Fist actually is farming them.

I'm sorry if my asking for facts offends you. I realize that the concept of basing opinions upon facts is foreign to some, but asking what alliances this thread is referring to is hardly unreasonable.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

every clan we have grabbed -1

those have complained one way or the other

Okay, well if you're going to be a d*ck about this -- I'm going to assume that everyone else is right, because it seems unlikely that the whole server would be wrong, and you're not bothering to provide any information that's useful in establishing the contrary.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

Fine, have a look at the grabbing between Fist and Monsters.

And Spawn is correct, with two exceptions that I can think of off the top of my head, every clan we have grabbed has complained either to us or to someone else or had suicides.

And Ruth's point of view seems pretty boring to me. Fine, you don't like being grabbed... maybe they should set up a special all explore server for you to play on.

I was referring to Spawn's words ... I never said anything about me personally so no, I dont need an all explorer server. What an fluffhead comment that was.

Any time I have been grabbed, which have been few, I have been able to retal with no problem. I am not the one making threads looking for everyones approval for your agressive play style.

You pissed people off, deal with it.

K, well it doesn't look like Fist farmed Monsters. At least, not unreasonably so.

The people from Fist who're posting in this thread do seem awfully defensive though... especially for a thread which they created to seek out the opinions of others.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

seriously, all these 48 hrs 72 hrs 1 hit within 72 hrs no multiple hits on one clan by different members in the clan stuff make my head hurt..

can't we just play by a common set of rules that make sense to all (like previously) n actually have some fun playing?

It's like we spend more time discussing rules n stuff than actually running the country..

Looks to me this question is being asked due to all the red countries in your tag? You were on the brink of defeat by an itty bitty alliance due to aggressive grabbing before SancT saved your butts. ;-)

EEVIL 1 Fist 0

without your little tagjumpers you wouldnt even have been close to where you were, so yeah, you're really too awesome for this world

In my 13 years of playing this game (obviously including 2025), there's never been a single set of retal rules. So I assume you're talking about January 1997 and before.

-Fooglmog
Guy with no clue.

Meh, not just to seek out opinions but also to defend our grabbing policies from what we view as unfair criticism...

OMG 3 tag jumpers NO WAI. still at a 3 country disadvantage. you still had to call in 60 member clan. fist is still scrub city. this thread is just reinforcing to the alliance community you guys dont have fluff all of a clue.

thanks.

less talk
more killin

You still outnumbered them with or without the return of their members to the tag, but you still had to call in help.

I'm just sorry I wasnt able to jump back in time to help them.

lol, get real seriously
we didnt call in Collab, i just asked them to kill the tagjumpers

and FSing a clan that has already been FSed isnt too impressive

so props to EEvil

Personally I never said you called in Collab, they did what they wanted to do and as far as EEVIL is concerned our war with FIST is over and considered a win wouldn't even bother to waste a turn on your tag.

If SancT had gone along with your request, you may be having more fun right now. After all your only at war with EEVIL I believe whilst EEVIL is at war with you and Collab? We have bigger fish to fry than Fisties.

And to get back on topic I still believe this question is due to all your red countries. So does that opinion hit home any?

*kills Collab restarts

no, this isn't about eevil. eevil's not getting a unap or a dnh next set, its far more likely to get to be an exception to our rules about multitaps (ie. proof that we dont really give a damn about your views on our policy). we know we might have gone a little overboard with you, but any sympathy we might have had you lost when charcoal pulled his fluff.

besides, like pdm (props to them for also being a clan that advocates grabbing) for their policies, we're willing to fight in order to keep this from turning into the 'all-x' server some want it to be

we're asking because some clans claimed we farmed them.

you killed a PDM country and formally declared war on AT. the fact that you guys are still claiming that you got "FSed" is making me wonder if you guys even understand how this game is played. you got CSed first of all. second we hit you plenty long after PDM's "FS" on you.

you guys can use all the excuses you want, you lost the war.

that exception will get you more red countries next set, tough guy.