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Angel1 Game profile

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Dec 18th 2014, 17:48:19

http://www.foxnews.com/...n-exchange-student-death/

First to anyone, such as the Associated Press: STOP CALLING THIS A STAND YOUR GROUND CASE. Having shouted that out, let me explain. Stand your ground laws have only come into existence in the last 10, maybe 20 years. Stand your ground laws mostly govern the use of force to defend yourself outside of the home and business. They came about largely as a result of state legislators deciding that local and state prosecutors had not used their prosecutorial discretion appropriately in deciding whether or not to prosecute cases where an individual felt threatened and defended themselves against an attack. Legislators mostly decided that in instances where an individual that did not instigate violence is confronted with violence, they're actions to defend themselves should be questioned with regard to their ability to retreat. Legislators decided that you shouldn't have to think about your ability to retreat in the heat of that moment because in that moment you may not have the time to think about retreating. This is an individual protection that applies to the individual and the possessions on their person. In stand your ground cases, there's the victim and the perpetrator, that's it.


This case centered on a much older defense doctrine...the castle doctrine. The castle doctrine in most states says that your home, your car, and your business is your castle and you have the right to be secure in your castle. The castle doctrine says that if someone breaks into your home, you may reasonably assume that they mean to do you harm and you have the right to defend yourself up to and including the use of lethal force. That being said, the castle doctrine can be overcome if the prosecutor is able to overcome the assumption.


This case is now (@~12:30 pm eastern time) in the sentencing phase, but the defense has already announced their intentions to appeal the verdict. I'm no lawyer, so I can only respond as a citizen. I do not believe that someone should be able to set a trap and then claim castle doctrine. It is one thing to set up security systems and respond to them if they're triggered. It's rather a different situation if a person sets up security and some bait and an open door and them arms themselves for a confrontation that they are expecting to come. That sounds like a police sting operation to me and a police sting operation must be operated with the intent of capturing and prosecuting a suspect.

Justice has been done in this case. The prosecutor has overcome the castle doctrine assumption. This was murder, plain and simple. Right up until Markus Kaarma fired his gun in anger, he was a victim; he could have chosen to remain that way by calling the police and by ordering Diren Dede to get out of his garage and off his property. Mr. Kaarma could even have issued those orders with weapon drawn and scaring the stupid out of Diren Dede, but in his anger he chose not to pull back from his trap.


Stand your ground laws pulled back on overzealous prosecutors, but prosecutors must still make sure that the public understands where the limitations are, where their rights end and the rights of other people (or society at large) begin.
-Angel1

Requiem Game profile

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Dec 18th 2014, 18:04:21

Akula Game profile

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Dec 18th 2014, 19:12:51

Originally posted by Requiem:


here in the UK you must challenge the intruder to give them a chance to surrender, unless they're inside your property and there is a perceived threat to life

http://www.cps.gov.uk/...ecution/householders.html

What if the intruder dies?
If you have acted in reasonable self-defence, as described above, and the intruder dies you will still have acted lawfully.
Indeed, there are several such cases where the householder has not been prosecuted. However, if, for example:

1. having knocked someone unconscious, you then decided to further hurt or kill them to punish them; or
you knew of an intended intruder and set a trap to hurt or to kill them rather than involve the police,
you would be acting with very excessive and gratuitous force and could be prosecuted.


very excessive and gratuitous force = tried for murder

Personally, I kinda like it where burglars don't carry firearms to kill you
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"Astra inclinant, sed non obligant"

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Home Turf Game profile

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Dec 18th 2014, 19:17:50

If you don't want to get shot. DO NOT GO INTO SOMEONE ELSES HOME WITHOUT BEING INVITED!!

If that person lived around here, they would get a medal, instead of a trial. That's asinine putting someone on trial for protecting their home.
HT

Trife Game profile

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Dec 18th 2014, 20:04:42

Home Turf, I guess I missed where the sentence for burglary was changed to summary execution.

'That night, Kaarma left his garage door partially open with a purse inside.'

Yep, that'll do it. Glad to see justice serviced for this terrible gunowner in the story.

KoHeartsGPA Game profile

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Dec 18th 2014, 20:08:23

So if I leave my car unlocked, according to Trifelibtard, you are entitled to come in and take my belongings, good to know...
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
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mrford Game profile

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Dec 18th 2014, 20:11:53

this fluff aint as black and white as trifetard and kohtard make it for their respective sides

the legal penalty for burglary isnt death

there aint time for a judge and jurry in a burglary, so relating that to a criminal justice system punishment is a bit silly

you cant bait criminals and not expect that to be a factor in your case, that is even sillier

it is hard in a court of law to prove beyond a reasonable doubt motives

i like cheese
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[21:37:01] <&KILLERfluffY> when I was doing FA stuff for sof the person who gave me the longest angry rant was Mr Ford

VicRattlehead Game profile

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Dec 18th 2014, 20:16:04

Other than a neighbor saying so, what real evidence do we have of baiting?

Trife Game profile

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Dec 18th 2014, 20:17:22

Originally posted by KoHeartsGPA:
So if I leave my car unlocked, according to Trifelibtard, you are entitled to come in and take my belongings, good to know...


Just because someone enters your garage or opens your car door doesn't mean you get to kill them.

Sorry :(

Trife Game profile

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Dec 18th 2014, 20:20:21

Also, another great post, Angel

Akula Game profile

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Dec 18th 2014, 21:38:43

Originally posted by mrford:
this fluff aint as black and white ...
the legal penalty for burglary isnt death


i very much agree there, however i do think there should be plenty of time for investigating and prosecuting criminal offences - perhaps sloppy copping might see easier to delegate to members of the public on the ground

Originally posted by VicRattlehead:
Other than a neighbor saying so, what real evidence do we have of baiting?


thats what the law is there for, to investigate possible wrongdoing, not for the public to do
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"Astra inclinant, sed non obligant"

SOL http://sol.ghqnet.com/
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KoHeartsGPA Game profile

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Dec 18th 2014, 22:16:39

Originally posted by Trife:
Originally posted by KoHeartsGPA:
So if I leave my car unlocked, according to Trifelibtard, you are entitled to come in and take my belongings, good to know...


Just because someone enters your garage or opens your car door doesn't mean you get to kill them.

Sorry :(


Hopefully one day you won't be a victim of burglary or worse burglary with your family in the house and become victims of violence, that will have you singing a whole different tune....
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~ICD~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

Trife Game profile

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Dec 18th 2014, 22:45:54

my mom had her garage broken into when we were younger. we were at school, but what did she do? grabbed her gun, called 911, and barricaded herself in the room furthest away from the garage.

a guy a few grades above me at the time had played hooky from school and decided to break into a few garages in the neighborhood. he stole less than 20 dollars from the car, as well as a pair of gloves in the garage.

the guy has turned into a career criminal, i see him in our countys' booking logs often. cool stury, eh?

luckily in our state, citizens have a duty to retreat before lethal force can be applied. having to use your firearm should be a last resort option.

again, i'm pretty damn pro-gun. but that doesn't mean a person can lay in wait after enticing a burglar and then zap him when he comes into the line of sight. that's not what a responsible gun owner does. IMHO, a responsible gun owner should do everything within his power to avoid even having to use the firearm in the first place. in this situation, a responsible gun owner would've shut his garage, and not left valuable items in a tempting and easily visible location.

if you're seriously trying to say that what kaarma did was right/correct/responsible, then arguing with you is pointless. i award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul

Heston Game profile

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Dec 18th 2014, 22:49:17

Someone enters my home uninvited their chances leaving in an ambulance or body bag are extremely high. Only thing that would save you would be that you are an obvious slobbering retard or equivalent and an elder with dementia. Where i draw the line will differ from trife or ford or koh. Thats the american way and none are wrong.
Baiting criminals is a controversial subject in the court system. Its ok to do. What is not ok is to create a situation that could put anyones life in danger especially regarding opportunistic crimes even if the mark is a fluffing scumbag. If you want a safer neighborhood start by fleecing up your own fluff not by becoming an attractive victim and putting a cape on.
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mrford Game profile

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Dec 18th 2014, 22:52:12

may god have soul on your mercy
Swagger of a Chupacabra

[21:37:01] <&KILLERfluffY> when I was doing FA stuff for sof the person who gave me the longest angry rant was Mr Ford

VicRattlehead Game profile

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Dec 18th 2014, 23:05:06

Originally posted by Trife:
that doesn't mean a person can lay in wait after enticing a burglar and then zap him when he comes into the line of sight. that's not what a responsible gun owner does.


I think you just described The Punisher. Awesome.

Angel1 Game profile

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Dec 19th 2014, 1:50:58

Defense is a reactive action and not an active action, but I really don't like the duty to retreat nonsense. When you are in your home...you have already retreated. Of course, that doesn't mean it's the wisest idea necessarily to just get your gun and sit on the couch waiting for the person that's breaking into your home or that it's a good idea to confront them in your home. However, it does mean that the assumption should be that you are reasonably afraid for your life if someone breaks into your home. It means that barring evidence to the contrary, no one should second guess the beliefs that someone has as they confront an intruder into their own home (car or business).

As far as how we can know that the guy set a trap, apparently the prosecutor presented enough evidence to prove their charges. The jury must have believed the prosecutor's theory beyond a reasonable doubt.
-Angel1

Detmer Game profile

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Dec 19th 2014, 21:34:52

I used to swim against Markus Kaarma in high school.

Trife Game profile

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Dec 19th 2014, 22:18:45

Good thing you never swam into his lane!