Is there anything left of this Pact?

Twenty ninth day of the set some way off and we have:

Imag declaring on Danger and tag killing with missiles. No suggestion that Danger had threatened suicide so a clear breach.

And we have this

SS Oct 28, 14:04 Tits McBeif (#311) (EVOtella) Iphone 6 is not worth the cash (#412) (TITANS) 200 A
SS Oct 28, 14:05 Tits McBeif (#311) (EVOtella) Iphone 6 is not worth the cash (#412) (TITANS) 193 A
SS Oct 28, 14:05 Tits McBeif (#311) (EVOtella) Iphone 6 is not worth the cash (#412) (TITANS) 187 A
SS Oct 28, 14:05 Tits McBeif (#311) (EVOtella) Iphone 6 is not worth the cash (#412) (TITANS) 171 A
SS Oct 28, 14:05 Tits McBeif (#311) (EVOtella) Iphone 6 is not worth the cash (#412) (TITANS) 153 A
SS Oct 28, 14:08 Tits McBeif (#311) (EVOtella) Free that big WILLY (#141) (TITANS) 380 A
SS Oct 28, 14:08 Tits McBeif (#311) (EVOtella) Free that big WILLY (#141) (TITANS) 335 A
SS Oct 28, 14:09 Tits McBeif (#311) (EVOtella) Free that big WILLY (#141) (TITANS) 287 A
SS Oct 28, 14:09 Tits McBeif (#311) (EVOtella) Free that big WILLY (#141) (TITANS) 242 A
SS Oct 28, 14:16 A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Falling From Grace (#308) (TITANS) 389 A
SS Oct 28, 14:17 A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Falling From Grace (#308) (TITANS) 393 A
SS Oct 28, 14:17 A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Falling From Grace (#308) (TITANS) 387 A
SS Oct 28, 14:17 A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Falling From Grace (#308) (TITANS) 325 A
PS Oct 28, 14:23 Tits McBeif (#311) (EVOtella) Free that big WILLY (#141) (TITANS) 301 A
PS Oct 28, 14:24 Tits McBeif (#311) (EVOtella) Free that big WILLY (#141) (TITANS) 241 A
PS Oct 28, 14:25 A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Falling From Grace (#308) (TITANS) 405 A
PS Oct 28, 14:25 A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Falling From Grace (#308) (TITANS) 326 A
PS Oct 28, 14:25 A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Falling From Grace (#308) (TITANS) 258 A

Another quite clear cut beach.

Will these breaches lead to any action by the signatory clans?

My guess, not.

But I could be wrong. ???

Furious and OMA, WORLD POLICE!

Would that I had the Force to do something tellarion.

You are surely not going to say you support this. :)

I think you're missing a few items:

Oct/27/14 5:52:59 CM Free that big WILLY (#141) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) 22754 C 694 B
Oct/27/14 5:32:07 NM Free that big WILLY (#141) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Defence Held
Oct/27/14 4:50:42 NM Free that big WILLY (#141) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) 1035 A
Oct/26/14 21:52:28 CM Free that big WILLY (#141) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Defence Held
Oct/26/14 21:50:53 NM Free that big WILLY (#141) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Defence Held
Oct/26/14 21:50:52 NM Free that big WILLY (#141) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Defence Held
Oct/26/14 21:50:47 EM Free that big WILLY (#141) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) 60656 MU
Oct/26/14 21:50:31 CM Free that big WILLY (#141) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Defence Held
Oct/26/14 21:50:30 CM Free that big WILLY (#141) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) 18783 C 764 B
Oct/26/14 20:10:00 GS Big Black Dilly (#155) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) 7465 C 75 F
Oct/26/14 20:09:50 GS Big Black Dilly (#155) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) 7692 C 75 F
Oct/26/14 20:08:16 GS Big Black Dilly (#155) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Defence Held
Oct/26/14 20:04:52 CM Big Black Dilly (#155) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) 25247 C 811 B
Oct/26/14 20:04:51 CM Big Black Dilly (#155) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Defence Held
Oct/26/14 20:04:50 CM Big Black Dilly (#155) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Defence Held
Oct/26/14 20:04:47 CM Big Black Dilly (#155) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Defence Held
Oct/26/14 20:04:43 NM Big Black Dilly (#155) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Defence Held
Oct/26/14 20:04:41 NM Big Black Dilly (#155) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Defence Held
Oct/26/14 13:40:59 NM Falling From Grace (#308) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) 1089 A
Oct/26/14 13:40:52 CM Falling From Grace (#308) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Defence Held
Oct/26/14 13:40:52 CM Falling From Grace (#308) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Defence Held
Oct/26/14 13:40:50 CM Falling From Grace (#308) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Defence Held
Oct/26/14 7:27:57 PS We bought a JEEP (#377) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) Defence Held

Plus 20-30 Harmful spyops.

And, of course, you have no idea what went on behind closed doors, so I guess that makes you the perfect authority to comment on such matters.

It might not have been very friendly of the Evo member who started it all (#36), but he only did 4 grabs, which, according to the terms, is not enough to trigger the pact.
If anything, Titans broke it (though I can see their PoV) with their missiles nd harmful spy-ops. I see no way to call ewpp on Evo here, at this point they're just responding to TITANS agression.

So it starts with these

2014-10-25 13:12:16 PS A Reminder (#36) EVOtella Falling From Grace (#308) TITANS 980A (1578A)
2014-10-25 13:11:47 PS A Reminder (#36) EVOtella Falling From Grace (#308) TITANS 1176A (1867A)
2014-10-25 13:11:01 SS A Reminder (#36) EVOtella We bought a JEEP (#377) TITANS 661A (1050A)
2014-10-25 13:10:28 SS A Reminder (#36) EVOtella Free that big WILLY (#141) TITANS 419A (803A)

Then Titans make the response you set out and that brings us to the hits I give at the beginning of the thread.

Is that right?

Missiles are in no way legitimate retals for landgrabs. The chickens are coming home to roost for TITAN. Plus, multies.

Looking now at the EWPP, Imag seem clearly in breach (although DANGER don't give a fig so maybe no reason for the signatories to take any notice); Titans are also clearly in breach and, as far as I can see, so are Evo, not for the fitst four hits which fall short of meeting the definition of an EAoW but for the subsequent grabs which meet that definition with rather a lot to spare.

But my prediction remains that whatever the true position the treaty is a dead letter because the signatories won't even notice what has gone on.

Pity, the idea was a good one and a lot of time and effort was spent. :(

OK.

"If a signatory of this resolution believes a country or spam tag (definition below) is going to suicide on their or another alliance, they are allowed to declare their suspicion on AT up to 24 hours after a pre-emptive EAoW against the suspected suicider. If the suicider initiates hostilities, there is no need for such a declaration as the suicider, by attacking, would have violated the terms of this resolution."

I'm pretty sure Evo is in the clear on this.

I don't think anyone claims Titans to be a spam tag, iccyh.

Nobody needs to make that claim.

Then the clause about spam tags which iccyh posts does not seem to apply.

They'd probably meet the definition in the EWPP, though I don't like the term myself. What they did could certainly be considered suiciding, as well. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

Edit: Besides, do you really want to extend protection to a tag that has had 1/3 of it's membership deleted?

Well we had sporadic merger talks with them last set and they told us they had pacts with all alliances so as to allow them to all-X in peace. If that is true and they preserved some of the pacts into this set they don't meet the definition because they have existed several sets and have formal relations with other clans.

I have a real suspicion that Titans mistook being on DNH for being pacted.

Well if the DNH is mutual and reached after negotiation surely that creates a relationship. That is all that is needed to fulfil the EWPP. It does not say the relationship must be of any particular kind - NAP, uNAP whatever. Just a relationship.

I don't see why you keep bringing the ewpp in here, once Titan decided to do an act of war, according to the pact, any and/or all signees can declare war on them. In this case Evo will just deal with them alone.

A formal relationship suggests it would need to be something that both sides consider to be a pact, and I feel confident saying that no established tag considers a DNH to be formal.

I could be wrong, but it is highly likely that Titans fits the definition of a spam tag by the EWPP, and even if they don't meet the letter they certainly meet the spirit.

Well, as far as I can tell it looks like TITANS broke the terms and EVO is just doing what it should. It's amazing how they haven't called in the other signatories to wipe TITANs yet...but then again, from the PURPLEd countries, it looks like they're their own worst enemy.















P.S. - my jets are ready ;O

Well that is not what the Pact says.

Titans made a series of attacks constituting an extreme act of war. As the offending alliance they can seek to resolve the matter independantly. They must make a fair offer within 48 hours. It is only if no independant resolution is reached that Titans comes to be in a state of war - with Evo and also with all the other signatory clans.

Nothing remotely like that has happened. Instead Evo continued their grabs and put themselves in breach of the Pact as well as Titans.

As to whether a mutual DNH is enough to create a relationship or not that is something on which it is the opinion of the signatories and only they which counts.

But the fact remains - they don't actually care.

The Pact was carefully negotiated and published on AT. But it is a dead letter. A free translation is that if anything happens which one or, more likely, a group of the larger clans doesn't like, as many as wish to will gang up on the clan or group of clans which has offended them.

State normal in fact.

I am glad that what will offend some is a major war and I am also glad that minor wars such as the one between Imag and DANGER offend no one.

It's been 48+ hours since the EAoW and unless those retals by EVO are what TITANS offered as reparations (and therefore, makes your thread pointless) then it's almost time for my jets to fly. Please let it be true. Pewpewpew. Death to netters! :D

Were you there? Tellarion clearly indicates that he has been in (frustrating) talks with them. So since no resolution was reached, a state of war started.
Stop trying to make this happen, it's fully clear that, if anybody, Totans are the ones violating the ewpp.

Well good luck Furious. These people will not enforce anything, even though they are the ones that put it into place. You didnnt really expect anyone to follow such a stupid pact did you? It was all done for show, and show period. Te people that think they are god here cant handle war. They have no concept.

Its obvious from the making of the pact that war isn't in their interests. It is for everyone else, but for the ones that think being faed, farming smaller alliances, etc...war isn't good for them They think that faing, farming smaller alliances is the way to number #1 in net. really shallow victory, but they think it is the end goal, and will do anything to keep that practice alive. its the only way they can net.

This is why people aren't staying around, or coming around. Certain folks think that they control the game, and they will not allow anyone but themselves and cronies, a legitimate chance at making or defending their land. ie: land:land time s whatever stupid percentage.

Totally destroys the lg practice, completely. Like in the other server post. Anyone that makes a solid retal against the so called "in crowd" folks that country is than farmed and killed for making a fluffty country pay for trying to farm them. If they would just suck up the retal, they would soon learn to make decent landgrabs, that do not rely on the strength of their cronies, but the strength of the country they are playing.

You will say Im totally wrong. But Ive been around just a few days. Just a few. It used to b that folks used landgrabs the way they were intended. Hunting out landfat, under defended crap countries. Instead now they choose to rely on others to protect them from folks they farm, or get a proper retal on them. That retal gets much more land than they originally got, so the punks they are, they fluff and whine, instead of making a solid country.

I know by posting this Im gonna get a bunch of flak, but the ones that do know they are wrong. They just feel they need to discredit anything Ive said here, to make themselves look legit. When in fact it makes them look like the non talented, greedy, pathetic individuals they are.

ciao

Have a swirve day!

Welcome to the "Alliance" Server.

This hasn't been the case since 2002 or so. Seriously, you're romanticizing over a past that never existed. People were bottomfeeding even back then.

Not that this exercise is actually useful or worth any time, but I'll play along all the same:

The only country Evo might hypothetically have to offer reps for attacking is #412, as it was not one of the ones that suicided on #36. All of the rest, regardless of Titans status, are considered suiciders by their actions and are not protected.

If Titans is a spam tag by the EWPP, then this applies to every country in the Titans tag and there is no need to offer reps at all. If Titans is not a spam tag, they have about an hour and a half to offer reps to #36 or declare war on everyone, at which point Evo is off the hook anyway.

Personally, I'd rate the EWPP as an amazing success given that it has certainly succeeded in what it set out to do.

Yes they ere bottomfeeding back in the dayso to speak. But they had the chance anyways of making a miraculous retal, and not get killed for being good enuff to get into position for the retal. Now it don't matter, you make that retal properly, and you are 99% of the time going to b farmed and killed. Tell me I aint right. I know I am. Ive been on both sides of this so its not like I don't know.

Why you even have iMag listed on this topic Furious is beyond me. Both iMag nor DANGER are signed clans on that EWPP deal. I don't condone what my former clan did and already told them this because I worked to maintain a good relations with DANGER when I was president of iMag.

Titans
Imag
Danger
OMA

They didn't sign the pact from what I can see. So the pact doesn't apply.

List of pact signatures:

RAGE - Signed - FDF - 9/29 - Skype
SoL - Signed - CC - 9/30 - Skype
SoF - Signed - Aponic - 9/30 - Skype
Evo - signed - tellarion - 9/30 - Skype
MD - signed - tav - 9/30 - Skype
LaF - signed - ingle - 9/30 - Skype
Omega - signed - tulosba - 10/1 - Skype
PDM - Signed - AusPiggy - 10/1 - Skype
ICN - signed - Nole - 10/1 - Skype
LCN - signed - Scribble - 10/1 - Skype
RIVAL - signed - Heinrich - 10/1 - skype
TPA - signed - PaoLo - 10/1 - Skype

You would think that. But the very first provision says

"This resolution is enforcable by every signed member against all alliances in game, regardless of signing."

well lets farm Imag ;)

and I would consider Titans a spam tag

NM Oct 26, 20:04 Big Black Dilly (#155) (TITANS) A Reminder (#36) (EVOtella) DH

Well, that was missile number 5 from country number 2 on #36, and that was 48 hours ago now. If they haven't offered reps (which I really doubt) and they're not a spam tag, then they've just declared war on the entire server.

They'd better hope most consider them a spam tag, I'd think.

iccyh

There is just one special provision in the Pact about "spam tags". It is the provision which covers the case of a spam tag threatening to suicide.

In all other respects the pact treats "spam tags" in the same way as every other tag. Nowhere are "spam tags" excluded from any provision.

So the notion that a "spam tag" doesn't count is a mistake.

I must now, I think, stfu about the Pact. No one, particularly the signatories, cares a damn about it and, more to the point, I've been getting pretty boring about it.

You'd be wrong about no one caring, it is just that no one reads it the same way you do. I'm sure you know both of those things already, though.

Let me try this again, one last time:

Case 1 - Titans is not a spam tag
Titans has multiple countries that have suicided on #36. Acts of war are allowed vs. suiciders, as stated implied by the pact. Titans needs to offer reps within 48 hours (which have passed), or they declare war on everyone. Presumably, Titans declaration of war on everyone negates the need for Evo to offer them reps for their hits on #412.

Case 2 - Titans is a spam tag
All of Titans count as suiciders and can be treated as such. Titans does not declare war on everyone, and Evo does not need to offer reps.

It doesn't really matter which it is because in either scenario it is acknowledged that, due to their actions, Titans effectively lose their tag protection and are treated as farmland. That misses the more basic point, though, that no one cares enough about Titans to consider them in EWPP terms besides you, Furious.

Everyone wants to bring new players into this game and onto this server.

After reading this thread, the only thing I can think to say is "Good luck with that..."

So...time to kill TITANS? Yes/No. I'm willing sacrifice my turns for the noble cause of upholding the holy pact.



It's not really that hard. Learn to take retals like a normal alliance and they'll get treated as one of the "guys". Instead, we have this spam/suicider tag doing stupid fluff instead of following the established norms of the server.

Don't worry iNouda, if you play the game for a while you will get the hang of it.

The "established norms of the server" is exactly what I'm talking about. This server serves as a terrible introduction to the game specifically because of all of the nuances associated with our arbitrary "established norms."

If I start playing a brand new game that has some sort of alliance/clan feature, my first thought is to find an established clan to help me learn the ropes. My first thought is most definitely NOT to just make my own.....

+1 for Viceroy also

When I last played, long ago, there was an accepted norm that you didn't ruin someone else's set by multi tapping. One grab and move on was how many people operated. The clan I finished up playing in, TheFIST made that a rule.

Two things now militate against this. The first is that with the greatly contracted numbers playing land is generally more scarse. But secondly all the major clans keep clear of each other. There is a network of pacts which reinforce this but even w/o a pact it has become against the norms of the server to make grabs against tagged countries.

No doubt L:L retal policies have played their part in this and now the co-operative aspects of land trading also make it generally more sensible to exchange lists with other sizeable clans rather than seek to grab.

In the result wherever land not in the hands of a sizeable clan appears (untagged, small clans, people dropping their tag for whatever reason etc.) there is a veritable feeding frenzy with multi taps from numbers of people the rule not the exception.

It is dispiriting to suffer that many hits. I am amazed, and rather admiring, of the dogged persistence of some of the people who play through a set untagged. Every day they see numbers of grabs on their countries but they keep coming back for more. Seeking to make such progress as they can swimming against a tide of greed.

It seems most unlikely that this will change. It has taken a long time to develop and most of us are wedded to methods we have used for a long time. But perhaps someone will come up with a way to break the mould.

In the meantime, perhaps, the sizeable alliances might be more active in recruiting and, when sucessful, assiduous in introducing newcomers into the arcane arts of land trading and so on. If clan sites are fun places to hang out in and people willing to train newcomers are plentiful the server will become quite a lot more welcoming despite the rapacious grabbing that takes place.

Furious, there's a big reason people generally avoid Danger and certain untagged players like Gogy. I'm sure you could discover their secret if you wanted to.

Rule #1: Stay off AT(unless you're making entertaining posts like Danger usually does).

I haven't read anyones BS in this thread but let me say this:

1) TITANS are considered a spam tag by the pact so idk why anyone is fluffing
2) 4 LGs by Evo, which started this, are within the terms of the pact (5+ = EAoW, not 4+. L2Read)
3) Missiles/harmful ops by TITANS do count as an EAoW and as far as I know no reps were offered. Thus everyones technically at war with TITANS but if Evo wants to just farm them I dont think anyone has a problem with that.


Is the EWPP really that hard to understand? Take the news, apply the pact to it and see if it checks out. Then make sure the tags involved aren't spam tags. Let me make this clear: if someone breaches the pact, all signatories are at war with that tag. Evo never asked anyone for assistance in killing TITANS, I assume because they're content with farming them. If they do want help killing the tag then the assistance will be provided.

Furious , You know me and I am EVO this set. #36 did no wrong in my book but Titans response was outrageous. I have been holding back my itchy tigger finger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k42S2-W9C90

My sympathies are with the Titan players, Collzaboration. But everyone gets to choose how they want to play. I don't know, come the end of the set, whether the very aggressive style of #36 will prove effective or not. Time will tell.

To say that it is outrageous for Titans to fight back in whatever way they can does not sit with me. Do you think they should have meekly done nothing at all? You play on the solo servers, how many folk do nothing at all there?
Not many, I think. Certainly not you or I.

Bouncing fatuous hits on #36's turrets, now that would have been an outrage, an outrage against good sense and the Gods of vengeance.

I understand why you're making the assumptions you are about #36 and style of play and the like, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if there is more to it than what you're assuming, based on my experiences with Titans.

If it was me I would have found a way to pull it off patience is a virtue.