Bah!

what archaeological evidence is there to prove anything in the bible. did they find noahs ark or something?

the proof that god doesnt exist IS the lack of proof that he does exist. the burden of proof is not on us to prove he doesnt exist, its on you to prove he does. good luck with that.

Yes a lot of the bible is based on true events (it was written by men after all). At the same time, evidence for the "miracles" described in the bible, or things that can not be explained as natural phenomena (splitting of the sea, resurrection of Jesus, people living to 800 years old), is non-existent.

And what do you mean by the "jumps"? Every step in evolution is a jump. A lot of you people attacking evolution are going to need to be a lot more specific on which key links we're actually missing and how that disproves the mechanism.

"No they should not, we agree. But I find it hard that the majority of a church's income comes from bazaar bake sales and such"

tithes and offerings, which i mentioned, sifos. and if your congregation is poor and the majority of your money doesn't come from your rich members then other churches give you some of their money.

in every aspect of church life it is charity- sunday isn't far away, go to services and we'll continue the conversation after?

ahh braden, it's not where the church's money COMES FROM that defines whether or not it's a charity... it's how it spends it. and paying priests, building churches, etc. are not charitable expenses

I think those billboards are quite accurate myself, but as pointed out by otheres in this thread they could probably be worded even better.

There are so many things to poke holes at when it comes to Religion that this Atheist group must have had a hard time chosing what to say. :-)

GO ATHEISM!

WRT Evolutionary chains as you call 'em: it's amazing that we even have the ones we have; keep in mind you're talking timescales of BILLIONS of years (well millions for human evolution, billions for evolution of everything); during that time plates are subducted, mountains are built and eroded, oceans come and go... it's pretty amazing that we have even the ones we have; given time they'll find more, but it's pretty clear where things come from; you don't even need fossils to show that, you can just look at genetics to figure out most recent common ancestors, and see who came from where; our DNA is a living fossil record if you will, and it all meshes together with the data *extremely* well.



But there isn't any evidence in the archealogical record to support the bible, not from before 1000-950BC starting around King David; before that there's no evidence to support any of it; the torah was pieced together from about 6 different sources, and most of the stories were simply legends; there is no evidence, for example, that the isrealites were ever in Egypt or that the Egyptians ever had slaves on the scale that is talked about in the bible.

PBS has a pretty good documentary on it actually:

http://www.pbs.org/...ibles-buried-secrets.html

Property taxes!

Meh, i lost interest in this thread 20 hrs ago...

"it's not where the church's money COMES FROM that defines whether or not it's a charity... it's how it spends it. and paying priests, building churches, etc. are not charitable expenses"

if building a church to further the charity being provided makes religion lose its tax exemption then any charity that so much as pays for a phone line to take donations isn't a loses theirs by the same logic?


(i'm discussing, i hope nobody is arguing.. not my intent :( )

"Because there is plenty of archaeological evidence to prove so much in the Bible?"

last i heard, they had churches dating back two thousand years. and i don't even think they had to dig too deep, pain ;)

and i'm not sure what you're referring to, qz, with property taxes!?

sorry :P

do priests get paid to be priest, or more specifically do they benefit monetarily from being in that position? if so that is not a charity

i've got to pay property taxes on the property that i own.

does the church?

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/...d/fndrsng-eng.html#N10732

i tried to make your arguments for you while reading it, but every time they tell me you're allowed to pay staff, administrators and management. of which a minister is all three. and gets only one modest salary, to boot.

I am as atheist as they come, but still: Every charitable organization has paid staff in order to administrate their operations, develop policy etc.

trife: http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/...d/fndrsng-eng.html#N10732

yea, i know, canada sucks, i get it.

broken link

tl;dr, summary please

what am i looking at?

summary?

you got it: ministers get to be paid and still have the church be a charity.

wow, i'm glad you're going to take my word on it- you could have saved us both some effort and just let me do your thinking for you to begin with :P

my question was regarding property taxes, not salaries for ministers.

so i'd rather you didn't do my thinking for me :)

churches have tax-free status.

you already know that they don't, how does my admittance of this help explain your point better?

i can't say for certain about america, because i'm not american and am not going to go searching through your irs regulations for fluffs and giggles, but no they don't, they don't pay any tax.

i do not explicitly recall reading the phrase "property tax" in that act, however, so..

a question i came to myself through all the reading, though, if the minister takes his or her earnings and invests in the market, any money made there do they pay taxes for? (i'm assuming right now that they wouldn't be paying income tax, but again do not recall reading it)

i'll ask my minister on sunday (i am running the sound, that is my volunteer work for the week. i'm a humanitarian at heart)

a) I don't believe they are completely tax exempt. For example I believe they are required to pay PST in most provinces that still have a PST (although I would have to double check that, it is possibly they may be allowed to apply for a refund later).

a) Ministers don't have tax free status, they pay income tax on their wage from the church and they pay tax on investment income etc. The only time a minister receives tax free status is when they declare a vow of poverty (which has a whole whack of other implications as well)

and yes, i'm being told (yahoo answers, mind you..) that they do indeed pay taxes on money earned. so you get your tax from the church one way or another, don't worry.

yepp, just corrected myself on that one after a quick double check of my own :P

Don't know but one of the perks is that they get to fondle lil boys.......oops.....sorry!, shame on me that was distasteful !

I was raised atheist, spent lots of time exploring various religions (all kids rebel against their parents teachings) and ended up atheist myself as well. I was persecuted as a child for my families (lack of) beliefs by the religious people around me, frequently.

I think these billboards are a terrible idea and send the wrong message. But, as others have pointed out, there is no "organized atheism", so whomever paid for them can say what they please. I still think it is a bad idea.

I believe human philosophy will continue to evolve as it has been for ages from polytheism -> monotheism -> deism -> agnosticism -> atheism... Some of us are just ahead of the curve. ;)

Mormons are christians

yeah... in my opinion they have about as much in common as a chainsaw and a airplane. They both have a motor but are very different besides that.

i know next to nothing about mormonism, but i understand a christian to be somebody who believes in christ as their saviour- and this i believe they do.

yeah thats what i meant by my analogy... they both have a motor (believe in Christ) but how they act and what they believe after that are different. So they are similar but not really similar... at least in my opinion (which is from a Christian point of view).

what sect of christianity are you, frodo? i might be asking this wrong, but i'm baptized into the presbyterian church of canada, so i'm presbyterian.

my family (primarily welsh, at least) are traditionally anglican, though i'm really the only living member of a church in my family.

and out of curiosity, how different would you consider mormons than, lets say, methodsists or baptists- i mean, same analogy, both have an engine, etc?

Actually my understanding is that Mormonism isn't very different from the other christian faiths at all. I mean there are some fundamental differences in doctrine, especially around the nature of god (the holy trinity), but overall they have a lot more in common than they do in contrast.

yep

h4, off the top of your head do you know the differences relating to the holy trinity?

i did some quick reading, but came across nothing.. that doesn't mean it isn't there, just that i overlooked it :P

other Christians see the holy trinity as different aspects of the same entity (god). Mormons believe that the father, the son, and the holy spirit are separate entities that are capable of different perspectives and in some cases different preferences.

Others have argued the Mormon belief on the trinity flies in the face of monotheism, since you could technically argue that they believe in 3 separate gods (although they argue otherwise).

Yup. I was raised mormon, no longer go but only because i never liked the going part. Definitely consider myself christian

Didn't read through this whole thread but looks worthy enough for a bonus.

On a side note, thank science/doctors for saving lives in a hospital, not god

and in many of those cases, thank the catholics for starting the hospital and paying the doctors

oh, woops..

... and in many cases thank non-catholics for doing it instead, or the doctors who work for free

The only thing that rivals religion in terms of being despicable nonsensical exclusionism/us against them etc is wide scale blind nationalism.

Looks like Christian whatevers made a billboard trying to seem Atheists<sp mocking Religions.. cause I don't think they'd use Simply Reasonable.

the doctors work for free, sifos, or the doctors make so much money that they can afford not to charge some of their poorer patients?

it isn't at all exclusionism, tarnava. we encourage you to join. you are welcome at any time.. ?

Yes, you encourage people to join, and you desperately try to in doctrine family members from a young age, friends etc. When it fails, it's exclusionist and in many cases tears families apart. Religion has done far more harm than good, and it makes me want to vomit whenever I sit and ponder the horrendous acts that have been committed because of childish fairy tales and delusions

Hey now, Athiests have their holiday too. It`s called april "FOOLS" day lolz~
My Name is Mossad and I endorsed this message ;P heh...

It's actually called Festivus. Get it right asshole.

i think they call that intolerance, tarnava. talk about exclusionist.

I officially want to have klown's baby. This troll is better than getting a spy-kill and an unassisted triple play at the same time.

Festivus was conceived by writer Dan O'Keefe and was celebrated by his family as early as 1966. The holiday was later introduced into popular culture by O'Keefe's screenwriter son Daniel on an episode of Seinfeld. The holiday's celebration, as it was shown on Seinfeld, included an unadorned aluminum "Festivus pole", practices such as the "Airing of Grievances" and "Feats of Strength", and the labeling of easily explainable events as "Festivus miracles".

Celebrants of the holiday sometimes refer to it as "a Festivus for the rest of us", a saying taken from the O'Keefe family traditions and popularized in the Seinfeld episode to describe Festivus' non-commercial aspect. It has also been described as a parody and as playful consumer resistance.

This article is about the December 23rd holiday. For the sea snail of the same name, see Murex festivus.
Festivus
Festivus
Festivus Pole
Type Seasonal
Significance A holiday celebrated by those frustrated with the commercialism and pressure of other December holidays.
Date December 23
Celebrations Airing of Grievances, Feats of Strength, the aluminum pole, Festivus miracles.

Festivus is a secular holiday celebrated on December 23 as a way to commemorate the holiday season without participating in its pressures and commercialism.[1] Festivus became part of worldwide[2] popular culture after being featured on an episode of the American TV show Seinfeld in 1977.
Hey arent you the soup guy from seindfeld?
Whereas April fools day hasnt a thing to do with same. However foolishness is the traidition for the day......

I've heard more and more of those are being installed in people's homes lately... They can also be used for exercise and entertainment...