Dont believe anything Sov said or sign. He's a heartbreaker !

No it was SOL who started it all, you are just conveniently neglecting to consider events that occurred before the a certain point in time.

Whatever happened to no grudges from set to set? I guess thats a nice idea that will never work.

SoL did start it, IMO. But that still doesn't excuse what others did during it. The moral highground is out of everyone's reach at this point so that discussion is sort of moot to begin with...

PS -> whoever had "two days" in the "how long until TAN slams his enemies with an Israel reference" wins the pot!

I would say one needs to distinguish between Hanlong himself and LaF as a whole.

We know Hanlong logged into an account with direct db access. Ergo, we know Hanlong violated the game's policies.

The debate about whether or not the rest of LaF benefited from that access depends on what Hanlong may or may not have done with the access.

One side may firmly believe that Hanlong would not repeatedly log into such access without the intent to benefit the alliance he was leading. One might also say that even if it wasn't his *intent*, the mere knowledge gained might have benefited the alliance he was leading.

But, to the other side's point, that is still speculation if we don't *know* what he did.

The other side can believe that Hanlong (and TC) both logged into this access and never did anything to benefit LaF. That is *possible*. I may find it highly unlikely, but that is *my personal judgement* -- I have no logs.

I hope this distinction helps people agree to disagree and move on.

you were real fluffs to alot of people based off of the info that was given to you wrongly. how would people not be upset with you no matter how you dealt with the issue? you got your ass handed to you the set before last. last set you won. fact is this player base has a long memory (depending on who you talk to it may be twisted like a rubics cube) so if you cant get past this incident being brought up for a long time you need to find another hobby

Being the one with the logs, I can tell you he was performing such queries as:

select * from posts order by postid desc
select * from inbox order by messageid desc
select * from posts where authoruserid = 79 order by postid desc

But I haven't released logs as there is IP information &etc in there; which isn't necessarily too confidential, but we're trying to be consistent with our privacy policy.

lol this thread is retarded.. can we please just drop this.. people should try to build instead of destroy for once.

You're funny :)

All I like doing is building :P Thats why sim city is so great

Omg brought back my memories!

so proof has been posted for LaF and co that hl actively looked through other alliances' boards via an admin access. There's proof of cheating right there. the fact that LaF and SoF still don't think he did anything wrong, and STILL defend his actions, and STILL act like it was alright is what says it all. Personally I am not convinced that SoF/LaF aren't going to pick apart the various alliances that were involved on the side against them ast set over the sets to come by isolating and attacking alliances induvidually.

LaF, you weren't outnumbered 5:1 so suck it up and stop crying off being the victim. You were initially attacked with a numerical balance, you couldn't handle that, so you called your buddies in SoF in to make it 2v1 numerically. PDM and MD came in and made it roughly equal numbers wise again, then RD jumped in a week or so later, hitting MD and throwing the balance back out in your favour, and giving you the war.
The differnce between here and E:2025 was supposed to be that everyone was given a clean slate and fresh shot to play clean here in EE. Sadly, certain people have chosen not to do so. From llar's active contribution to a cheating board (which I recall LaF and SoF being vociferous on the boards about, and not lifting a finger when NA was completely smashed and gutted for it), to TC and hanlong's activities a couple of sets ago. It's just amazing how LaF's attitude changed when it's their member rather than someone else's.

lol we were outnumbered 5 to 1 LAST set Drow. We stomped multiple clans last set and again this set. We also got stomped last set. Stop being a little baby. Your friends and you attacked us two sets in a row and now you are whining and saying how we might hit you back?

We just might. But you fricking babies in PDM don't seem to get is that Laf is not on some crusade to fluff you over. We like to net as much as anyone in Evo and I am sure both Laf and Evo have many people who want an end to the conflict. Thing is we will fight and enjoy kicking ass as long as we need to.

Stop trying to pretend you have some high moral ground.

Did PDM lift a finger to help NA? NO you fluffing didn't. Stop being a fluffing hypocrite. You never once saved NA from a tag kill.

What TC did was stupid and flat out cheating. What Hanlong did was wrong, immoral, and stupid, and he got what he deserved but he did no more than NUMEROUS others would have or have done with the same or similar power. GF Arrived so im done

What TC did was stupid and flat out cheating. What Hanlong did was wrong, immoral, and cheating, and he got what he deserved but he did no more than NUMEROUS others would have or have done with the same or similar power. I don't have a GF so I'm done.

Fixed :P

So basically:

Ivan and retarded SoF n00b #2 still believe that Hanlong didn't do anything wrong. qz comes and posts what we all knew which is that Hanlong was reading messages/forums. Do we need an admin to come in an confirm that every time or CAN WE JUST LET IT BE ACCEPTED?

Hanlong cheated. I haven't seen anyone in Laf deny that.

But but some SOF players are defending that Hanlong cheated.

I dunno if SOL started it. Maybe was not playing during that time.
What I remembered was LaF breaking our pact when we made a pokeLaF theme.

Insulting a bigger alliance constantly wasn't the smartest decision ever made :P Seems to me that evo and laf are much politer to eachother over the last few weeks though

It was a supposed to be a protest over your detagging near the end of the set. Other members just put some insulting country names.
And I think they included it on the pact the set after that.

this is the first i ever heard of hanlong reading messages, on the other hand we also know for a fact that evo got info they shouldnt have from the DB so lets see some slandering on them for a bit, the slandering on only hanlong is getting old but i guess slandering evo doesnt fit with yer politics

When did Evo get info from the database? And whom in Evo are you accusing?

I think Ivan is referring to the situation in this thread:
http://forums.earthempires.com/...02,%2015:57&z=apology

Apart from this one situation that qzjul himself brought to light, no member of evo has ever accessed the database illegitimately. As can be seen, this is a -completely- different kind of situation than with hanlong and tc.

An amusing thing to note also is Ivan's response within the linked thread. <3

locket: yeah my apologies, I misread.
However. I was pointing out LaF and SoF's hypocritical attitude regards NA, and yourselves. You guys were all too happy to slag off NA as a whole over llar's cheating, and yet, when it's YOUR leader and member, it's a whole different story, and it's "not the alliance's fault".
We were already warring NA when the cheating broke, as they had played games with us over their members RoR'ing, and applying different retal policies every time we spoke to them.
We also have not pacted NA since the cheating scandal.
We voided the LaF pact over cheating, and refused to renew this set.
Explain to me the hypocrisy here?
We had had no intention to join the war this set, until you called SoF in. If you had left sof out, then PDM and MD would NOT have joined the war.

So Laf are hypocrites because they didnt help NA but PDM are not because they already had difficulties? You completely neglect that Laf and NA had relations before then which were obviously not golden so yah... I didnt see PDM helping NA out when they were killed repeatedly for fluffty reasons set after set.

Also I personally was against the crap that happened with NA. I spoke to Hanlong a few times to use my little influence to get him to leave them alone and we did, although that was primarily because Hanlong felt fairly similar to me although I don't know his reasoning.

And last, if you actually asked a Laffer with a non trolling opinion, no one would agree with what Hanlong did and definitely not with what TC did. So again...

Oh and are you guys really so pathetic politically that you did not know at the start of the set that Laf and Sof were both going to be in this war? It was said on AT itself. You knew Sof wanted a good fight last set too. You knew Sof was joining so... :)

SoF had indicated to us that if the numbers between LaF and whoever they hit, they would most likely stay out. Logs had already been posted to that effect this set.
LaF are hypocrites because you blamed NA as an alliance when llar got caught, but refuse to take blame as an alliance when TC and hanlong got caught. 1 person in NA, 2 people in LaF. LaF blamed NA as a whole when llaar gets caught, but claims it's not LaF's fault at all, only TC and hanlong's fault, when they get caught.
It's a blatant case of having your cake and eating it too.

PDM is NOT being hypocritical as we have acted consistently with regard to cheating alliances in EE in not having pacted relations with them. Irrespective of whether we were already warring NA or not, we would have dropped the pact with them over the cheating, and we did exactly the same thing with LaF.

Ok, So you say LaF knew you were going to war this set, and that sof was definitely warring too, then cry foul and claim that you had to call sof in even though the numbers were even, because you weren't war prepped and had no turns saved...
Good lord, but the spin here is hilarious.

The war wasnt fair. Dont be fluffing ignorant. Laf started at a huge disadvantage. You really need to stop lying to yourself. It is unhealthy. Laf had no turns saved and was not prepped. If you expect a week 7 war and it is week 1 does that count as war prepped to you?(Just an example, as Laf obviously didnt expect a week 7 war) fluff.. PDM logic is fluffing terrible. No wonder you are so bad at this game.

Oh and I am pretty damn sure Laf as an ALLIANCE took what those on our side felt was a fair punishment and turned down help in order to do so. A 1v5fight isn't something we do for no reason. So yah, pretty sure Laf as an alliance HAS taken responsibility. I don't call all the random people in NA cheaters because of their past because 95% of them didn't cheat. Just like I'm not a cheater just because someone else did in Laf :)

Let's see how he spins this one

The #'s were even not sure how you get much more fair then that? I think people were saying there is no such thing as a "fair war" which is probably true, the only thing most people will agree on is if the #'s are even.

Laf was prepping for a war but, they were prepping for a later one. In that aspect Evo/Sol outplayed Laf. Which is a tactic.

(This is in no way a diss just an opinion) If I were in Laf's shoes I would call Sof in too, Sof wanted to war and there was probably no way they were staying out anyways.

You guys won a good war this set, I hope most of us can let these wars die. Congratz to Sof/Laf.

The thing I have been most impressed with is your membership count. Its a true victory and I hope you guys can keep it up. (I'm going to call Sov to recruit for me lol)

PS MD will be taking Avg NW next set (Sorry Laf no triple crown :P)

don't stoop to their level locket we've left those 5 alliance in total devastation, we made parking lots out of them, they know not to mess with us again all they need to do is look back on this set and see how we devastated the battlefield with our share military brilliance and political wizardry.

best of luck pride and md my favorite out the 5 definitely.

fixed that for you!!!

you may have "accepted a beatdown" as you put it (though credit where credit is due, it was a damn fine war performance, if numerically it was nowhere near 5:1), however your membership, including yourself, has been all over AT claiming LaF shouldn't bear responsibility for it as a whole, even though you felt NA as an alliance should.
We may not be earth's greatest players at PDM, but at least we are consistent with our attitude to cheating.

Task1 is that really you posting? :P

Sov, I can't speak to that because I was not around during that time (before and after most likely). If he did the same thing, then what statement holds true for him. I play no favorites when it comes to rules/laws.

Ivan, slandering implies the comments aren't true... If you have non-slandering, truthful, damning comments to make about Evo go for it... Free speech and all

well said matrix.
The concept was suposed to be though that everyone got a clean slate for EE.
I have tried to base everything I have said upon actions here in EE.
Sov it seems, can't let go of stuff from literally years ago however.

One more thing. Ivan, this is you from the post about evo "cheating" :

Drow, fair enough. I personally don't really hold grudges. e2025 was a dirty place all around so I can understand the clean slate mentality.

I'm not holding any grudges, certainly not against Pang. I am merely pointing out perspective. If we are talking about breaking the law it doesn't matter what game it is in.

Alin I know your not taking your beating very well mate and that's ok nobody likes losing. I hope we can tango again next set or sometime soon even thou sol has lost their touch on the battlefield it's still a pleasure murdering your countries, how did it feel sitting under 2mil net for the last few weeks bro?

I am taking my beating fine. But i have one thing you don't, it is called the honor to be in the CLEAN side. I know - you don`t understand what that is ... in a side with Laf, RD and MPG ? (lol)

Are...we still actually arguing about who's "right" and who's "wrong"?

Because, that really doesn't matter in a game based on numbers and stuff. You do know that, right?

we are the clean side we wiped our ass on your war effort.

re: what did hanlong do...

hanlong admitted openly to me (when he told me everything about what he/TC had done, as to not implicate the many other innocent LaF'ers) that the primary intention was to gather intel to help LaF & Co's planning. That aligned with what we found in the DB logs.

the trolls, for some reason, seized on the "OMG LAF'S COUNTRIES AREN'T LEGIT!!!!!" side of the argument, however having all that intel is far better than being able to make another breaker or two, IMO. Hanlong claimed he never did any updates or inserts, only selects as he thought the account was read only. Make your own call there, but I don't believe there was a major problem outside of Hanlong+TC reading info; we would have found it in the accounting. At the same time, though, the dividends from having that info really harmed several alliances and propelled a few others to great heights. That's the biggest shame about the whole thing, IMO...

And... ya... no one come back and call that spin because it came from the guy who did it and I'm pretty sure i've posted this several times in the past :p

Pang, do not make the mistake though of over-estimating how much intel was actually sent out.

I know people will believe what they want to believe though. Hanlong only had access since late Jan of this year.

Whilst the intel certainly helped LAF with the FS time against MD, it was not their only source as there was someone else inside MD that was feeding information as well.

SoF certainly never received anything that really proved to be of benefit. Since late January we only fought PDM and we had no intel on PDM outside of what I was hearing out of RD.

TC had the access for well over 2 years; he had to have got it before we cut his access for taking down the server and just being an all around bad team player.

This isn't about PDM either. I'm just providing clarity on a topic that others were disputing, because Hanlong himself said the express purpose of gathering the data was to form LaF & Co's planning against those who oppose them.

BTW, saying "oh, they just cheated since January..." as if that makes it better is pretty sad, IMO. The fact that Hanlong didn't just go "hey Pang, so I got this pw from TC that works on your game server..." the second he got it is a damn shame in and of itself.

You are pointing out that other Alliances have risen based on the shady intel provided which appears to me as an attempt to smear other Alliances which are innocent of the charge. If it does not involve PDM then which Alliance are you implicating?

Maybe you should be specific with your allegations so we can address them logically.

Logically? We've tried that already, like 4 threads ago!

Maybe ;)