Regarding the following request - I am NOT speaking in any way as a PDM representative, these statements are purely my own.

How about cutting the new guys some slack? They seem to be making a legitimate effort to enter the game. You guys are hitting them at a rate of about one hit per hour over the last 72 hours and we all know that as your explore-starters enter the grabbing phase that that count will climb rapidly. You were by far the two best netting tags before they came along and you still will be even without their land.

You guys would generate a tremendous amount of good will among the rest of the EE community by giving DC a pass this set. Right now, you guys are the only tags hitting them, so its not as if laying off will put you at a competitive disadvantage.

If it turns out that they are not legit, I'll gladly take the abuse when and if the cynics are proven correct.

+1

+2

i'm more than happy to talk to them and sort something out with them.

i'm trying to find a FA representative from them, probably need to teach them that stuff too =)

If anyone can teach them, it's you ;) I mean that as a compliment.

My response is not a official response from laf, but is a personal response.

How about not?

a) This is a game, thus it is competitive. You are asking people not to act competitively and that isn't going to happen, especially given the alliances you are making this request to are highly competitive.

b) As has been argued on another thread, if LaF and evo weren't hitting DC then someone else would. The reason why you see the hits being dominated by those 2 tags at the moment is because they are the ones that put the most effort into camping DR etc. If Evo and laF were to cease hitting them, do you really believe that people like SoF, LCN, RD, sanct etc. wouldn't hit them? I think they would, and there is plenty of past examples that show that this is the case. So from the perspective of LaF and evo, these DC players are going to get grabbed regardless, as such it might as well be us profiting off it.

c) The premise of your request is that cutting new tags slack will be good for the game. I wholeheartedly disagree. Running a successful clan in this game requires a lot of effort. You need to develop strategies, train members, organize both internally and externally (building up your foreign relations department) and make sound decisions about your tags actions.

The game has historically been hard on new tags, and I think this is a good thing because it pushes new tags to organize to the degree they need to in order to be successful. If they don't do it, they die off. If everyone was to "take it easy" on them, they wouldn't learn what it takes to be successful and if they do manage to last, they likely won't be very good, or their progress will be extremely slow.

I know I don't want to see alliance quality watered down in such ways.

I guess you could call it "initiation by fire" but it also acts as a teaching tool, it shows these people exactly what it takes to be successful on this server. Some tags don't rise to that challenge, but plenty of others have over the years.

It isn't impossible, it is actually pretty easy if new tags approach it in a proper way.

D) They chose to come to this server and compete with us. There are other servers for them to hone their skills and organize themselves on before trying to make the jump to the alliance server. They chose to tackle the alliance server and as such they chose everything that comes with it (maybe they like the challenge? some people do you know).

You don't walk onto a soccer field against a bunch of skilled players and then get angry when they dribble circles around you, and you don't expect them to "play down" to your level. This is a ridiculous concept and goes against the nature of competitions/games.

Wall of text.

^^
what h4 said

Proof that Evo and LaF _CAN_ indeed work together!

It's already happening.........

It isn't a wall of text, it is clearly broken into paragraphs :P

its a wall of douchebaggery =P

tl;dr this thread

PDM and RD farm abuse game mechanics and farm each other, LaF and Evo farm new clans off the server.

Can't you guys all just stick to all-explore, legit grabbing of each other (ie hits where standard retal policies are followed) or farming untaggeds?

Seems like Monsters, Omega, SancT etc. have sort of find a nice middle ground.

but of course they're not the ones winning ANW titles.

matter of perspective, I think asking people to play down is douchebaggery.

Lets face it. You will not be able to control the grabbing habits of the entire server to preserve one new tag. It will not happen.

This server will not achieve any growth from new tags. It will only achieve growth from people joining established alliances where they learn how to play on this advanced server. Over time, people will split off from those alliances and form new ones. That is how the game grew from the start, that is how it will grow in the future if there was ever to be a new influx of players.

Whilst I support this new tag and wish it all the best, going so far as to possibly offering them a pact, their chances of surviving even if LAF and Evo pact them are slim without any real experience.

All of you who argue that we need to stop picking on these new tags have delusional views on the mechanics and nature of this server.

I think we shouldn't control how tags interact with each other.

However, guys like HLW and H4 have stepped up, as well as others, to mentor and support this new alliance in a different way. To show them how the interactions are done between alliances historically, they can learn how the game is played, outside of the actual game itself.

We just can't cut them slack by just BECAUSE their new.

Alliance representatives from established alliances CAN cut them slack by giving them a DNH, or even giving them a better pact of some sort.

BUT, that is up to each alliance's direction and goals, and much like L:L, or 5:1 of HAN days, we cannot and should not enforce policies on AT. It is up to each individual alliance to offer their help.

And which, would actually show this new group, who are the guys that are willing to give them a break, and who are the real assholes who just wants land.

i think perhaps what you really meant was that its the mentality of the people playing on this server

the server and the game are what the players make of it and from what i have seen from some people/tags, its all about farming anyone you can as much as you can

not all of us want to play that way and we dont

Based on what, all of our collective experience trying to support new tags on EE? Right now Laf is farming the fluff out of these guys, nobody else is. Most of H4s arguments are complete and utter bullfluff, he just wants to preserve a source of essentially undefended land for his farmers.

I'm sorry I posted this now. Please, by all means bring the force of Laf's 11:1 membership advantage to bear and see if you can up the grab rate to 10-12 hits per member per day, that will teach them to play the game. But hey, you might get a recruit out of it right?

but according to hanlong, they can retal and create ghost acres so its not a problem

kinda hard to retal 40+ hits ... i doubt any of the "established" alliances on this server could retal that many hits

I generally tend to agree with h4's points except that if this is a competitive game, like you state, overgrabbing is equivalent to running up the score against a weaker opponent.

if the game's competitiveness is to be treated the same way as a sport would, doesn't it stand to reason that the same sort of courtesies extended to weaker opponents?

The game has flaws and this is one of them. It can be pretty self destructive to its own growth, whether you like it or not.

You can either ignore this fact or play the game anyway you like.

Leave me all the land =D

you claim my arguments are bullfluff, but you fail to provide a strong argument (or any argument at all) as to why...

ARCHIAC DOES'T KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT AND IS OBVIOUSLY AN IDIOT ON ALL MATTERS RELATED TO EE AND ITS POLITICS.

(see, I can make statements without providing any sort of backup argument to support it too).

Its not really a game, its never been much of a game anyway. I cannot imagine that any of us would be playing it if it was not for each other. Its mostly a community, and right now its a very uninviting community.

by the responses on these threads, it looks like most people dont agree with farming new players/tags and end up driving them out of the game

however, if a few still want to play that way then its still self-destructive to the game and there will be limited growth here

even being in a tag that doesnt farm, and doesnt get farmed, looking at the news of some tags day after day sours the whole game

having the top net worth in a game with few players/tags really isnt that much of an accomplishment, or challenge

Pang: no because unlike in other sports it isn't just you vs your current opponent at any given time.

LaF isn't worried about competing with DC, they are worried about competing with evo, RD, etc.

In this sense the analogy is much less like a regular season NHL game, and more like the world junior championship. IN the world juniors there is no such thing as "slacking off" or "running up the socre" because goal differential matters and can be a big difference maker in the final outcome.

The same can be said here. Sure LaF and evo may be "running up the score" against someone like DC, but in the end they are competing against each other not DC.

Think of it like team USA and Team Canada both playing against team Norway. Everyone knows that Norway doesn't stand a chance, but the teams can't ease up against them because if they do then they are hurting their chances of placing higher than the other teams that they DO need to worry about.

Ruth: first off noware near everyone in the community posts on these threads, so basing anything off AT responses is an inherently strong selection bias.

Secondly it seems to be that there are a lot of people on this thread that agree with my view as well.

I can solve this argument with one suggestion.

DC, merge into LaF to learn the ropes of the game, if you guys want to leave after, that's perfectly fine.

Don't presume to know why poeple play this game. You know why you play and you may know why the people you interact with play, but you definitely don't know why everyone plays.

I can gaurantee you that you are absolutely wrong about the motivations behind why most people in LaF play, for example. Most of the people there actually do enjoy the game and actually do enjoy trying to place well, and that is why they play.

There are plenty of people that play the game for the game, and there are people in this community that play in spite of the community, not because of it.

h4:

I guess that logic works if you shoe-horn your view of "competition" on this server into a 1-on-1 competition vs Evo for the ultimate prize of winning ANW. However, for everyone else who doesn't care about (ok, doesn't have a chance to win) ANW legitimately, we just see a further disparity in that gap. It also highlights another problem which others have brought up; we still keep moving in the wrong direction in terms of how we "welcome" new players into the community.

You just violated your first sentence in those 3 paragraphs. Just FYI.

No I didn't, I pointed out circumstances where I know people that play the game for different reasons that Archiac suggests. At no point did I argue that I know why everyone, or even the majority of poeple, play.

Exactly, you were presuming why people play (the circumstances) the game, as did archaic. You just pointed out more reasons than he did.

Everyones view of competition on this server is specifically defined Pang.

LaF and evo compete in ANW (as do others, btw) where others choose to compete in total NW and others choose to compete in completely different areas such as war performance. That doesn't change the fact that competition is inherent in any sort of game or sport and that EE is no different in this matter.

Also I don't see how the logic requires the conclusion that we are only in a 1 on 1 competition with evo for ANW, my point was actually the exact opposite: we aren't competing against just any one tag (be it DC or anyone else) but competing against the community in general. As a result people aren't concerned with the disparity between any 2 particular alliances but rather where you stand overall in comparison to everyone else.

Your post generally and you specially are so fluffed it can`t be true. The bad part of this fact is that there are so many like you in this game - that it`s future is hopeless.

First of all it is a game, i REPEAT - A DIEING GAME. You don`t win money/fame or anything if you place on 1 2 or 456 among 800 players.

Wining earthempires 2012 is like wining at special olympics as a healthy person - you fluff. At least give those guys you compete with, a quarter of the prize ...

I think every legit clan should be granted a one set DNH during their first set.

I think I should join DC and teach them how to deal with bottom farmers......

and what do you get from winning a game of pickup football Alin? or pickup soccer? or a game of road hockey amoungst your friends?

Is all of that winning at the special olympics too? Don't be so bloody stupid.

Sports games and competitions serve no purpose other than amusement (although some will argue that they teach some positive moral traits as well such as how to be ambitious and how to overcome adversity etc).

But in one sense you are exactly right, this is a game...

YOU HAVE CLOSE TO zero FRIENDS ... AND those few you have don`t know how to play those GAMES.

ohhh you really burned me there... ouch.

Grow up.

lilitaly: the difference is that archiac framed his post as a general statement, saying that he can't imagine that ANYONE would be playing the game for any reason beyond the one he was suggesting.

I did so such thing and I I specifically framed my response otherwise, that was the point...

Give the game a chance. This isnt 2000. 15 new tags a reset with a new 100+ member spam tags dont happen.

H4, its not the same game. Its time to change playing styles. Its been time for awhile.

Well i did , with this game ( among others ). I started at 15 and now i am close to 30. This game teached me to speak english which is my 3rd now. I don`t wanna see this game die because people like you.

The really sad part about this story is that you are a grown up with THAT way of thinking!!!

Have a good evening .... fluffer!

You seem very mature.

Obviously you didn't grow up since you've resorted to personal insults in response to a policy debate. Your actions in this thread are far more detrimental to the health of the community than any in game stance I happen to hold.

mazooka: that is easy to say, its much harder to get everyone to actually do. If they can convince everyone to sign on and develop some sort of enforcement mechanism then I will sign on without question. But until that happens I am not willing to provide any sort of competitive advantage to any of my fellow competitors simply for the sake of "being nice".

And also it IS the same game, the only thing that has changed is the attitudes of the people playing it. People seem to feel that some sort of "competitive cooperation" is required now. It is fine to think that, but the game isn't structured in such a way to foster this activity and until it is people are going to have to learn to accept the fact that it isn't going to happen. It simply isn't the nature of competition.

Also, the game has been growing, in spite of everything all these tags are doing to "destroy it" according to some.

Multiple people have told DC that they should merge with someone at this point. Learn the ins and outs of the game mechanics and alliance policy conventions, and THEN when they are ready split off.

It seems that they are going to choose not to take this approach. So tell me, why should we cut them slack when they are choosing to take the hardest path possible?

ya, i know h4 in real life for a almost decade and he's a very nice guy. there's no need to personally attack him. he's one of the most calm and collected posters on the boards and you have to respect that even if you don't agree with his position.

oh and PS I don't agree with you and I will write a rebuttle when I'm not swamped :p

h4's view is just his view. it isn't LaF's view.

i already said i'm willing to talk to them and sort it out.

i never said farming someone out of the game is good, but creating an artificial bubble for them will hurt them in the long run too.

you guys are being too naive in saying "oh if evo/laf gave them a DNH, that will solve all their problems!"

assume that scenario happened. then some other alliance would be grabbing them. assuming every alliance eventually gave them a DNH even. they continue to run their no CS, rainbow strategy. they continue to retal guys who don't hit them, and do random destructive spy ops. they still have no FA team, they don't know how to retal for themselves, they have no friendships with any alliances.

no one is grabbing them however (since everyone gave them DNH).... what good does it do? is that how alliances are supposed to work in this game?

let's not get ahead of ourselves. they need to

1) learn to retal to protect their acres
2) learn to not suicide/use missiles/destructive spy ops as valid retal practices
3) learn to estabilish a FA team where they can sort through any problems like a serious alliance
4) estabilish friendships and get DNH/uNAP/LDP/FDP pacts (and know that those pacts mean)

you guys are proposing them to somehow jump to #4 without understanding 1-3.

every single alliance out here (including LaF) had to learn 1-3 before getting 4. it's like learning calculus before knowing arithmetic.

and yes, i do understand some of us have a 15 years of experience which the new guys don't have. i am willing to teach them but they need to talk to us first. just giving them pacts won't make them stick. guiding them through all 4 steps will. we weren't even aware they were an actual group of guys trying to estabilish a serious alliance until this post was started. there's a difference between people trying to start a new alliance (and hence would need guidance and pacts) vs a bunch of random spam tag recruits with the purpose of making lulz in the game.

im sending a msg to "LionsFan" which from archaic was the closest thing to FA contact. we can then gauge their seriousness in being an alliance in this game and offer them the ways to establish themselves as an alliance.

you guys make it sound like LaF just farms new alliances without any recourse.

you can ask people like Deci (with WoF) of recent, or Sov (when he was leading MX) in the past. yes we hit them a few times, they attempted to learn the proper way and LaF was happy in the end to teach them things and pact them and eventually they became serious alliances just like the rest of us.

relax guys =)

LaF and Evo would probably lose members if they were to run nothing but all-x. It's lose lose really.

Pang is your game, some sort of your youth hobby( i suppose ) you just took over and placed time&money in it . I respect that just because you keep it alive.

Now, the alliance server is going down - and you should do something about it. I don`t have the right to tell you what to do ... but just : do something.

Just take warers, netters and new membes and mix them into something playable - for all of them. And give all of them equal chances.

P.S. : edited the insults - i tend to fight fluffed ideeas with fluff

P.S2 : al my posts are my own personal opinia - should not be mixed with any alliance!