Thank you H4; I did not see how what I said could be misunderstood, but I suppose its only fitting that a simple statement could be misconstrued in a persons mind to mean something completely different.

NOW3P: I don't know how you can imply what I've stated to mean what you thought I was implying. I made a simple point, and intended nothing further from that point.

General Earl: I think you make a fair point, but I also think that living in the era that we do makes it much easier for people to do attacks like the suicide bombings.

Misunderstandings are pretty simple in a text based world. Between folks misreading, and folks mis-explaining, it happens.

Deerhunter - *facedesk*

Iran had a successful democracy going on until mi6 and the cia stuck their noses in and fluffed fluff up over again. Iraq had been mostly under control and relatively peaceful until the british government under churchill lumped them al together without regard for tribal divisions etc. I don't disagree they have been violent places before, but the current problems with iran/iraq etc are entirely from british and american (I am not solely blaming america) meddling in affairs to try and turn things to their advantage.
Sadly, I am on the road at the moment (quite literally, sitting on a freakin bus :/ or I would start putting some sources in as to where the latest round of middle east troubles stems from.

"without regard for tribal divisions etc."

it must be a north american sentiment to live beside somebody and not murder them for being different. they had their growing pains what with the indians and what not, but maybe palestine would be willing to take tax exemption and casino rights?

I agree with braden on this one. I am willing to give them tax exemptions and casino rights to all of the desert over there. Its only fitting. I'm sure with that they will thrive and stop blaming the west for their shortcomings and live on their own two feet- as our american indians have.

Here is the funny thing and trick question: Some of you have said its all Americas fault and England. Well, assuming that it is (which is clearly BUNK), then what could we ever possible do to make the Arabs happy and stop blaming us? Also to stop ALL suicide bombings?

It's a trick question because there is no answer. They are happiest when they can falsely blame America and have "reason" to suicide bomb.

IMHO, the best thing America could do is get out of the mid east, drill our own oil, buy nothing from the mid east, and stop selling them all grain and food. I figure then they will be too broke to purchase bombs and too busy searching on their camels for food and water to worry about fighting anyone. But of course that fact would be our fault too.

The israely embasador wrote an article in a news paper of my countr and he is pretty much saying that the recognition of the palestinian state in the UN will do nothing more than create a state of violence in the region... And to that I say BULLfluff

Palestine will be recognized as an state and the ball will be on their side of the court, if even after that israel refuses to compromice then they are the only ones to blame for the violence that will follow.

He is pretty much saying that even if the rest of the world agrees they need to back off and compromice, they will never accept anything shorter of everything... What a douche.

What compromise are you talking about? Are you saying they need to give land back that they won in a war? That would be retarded and leave them defenseless. Frankly, i am all for a Palestine state and don't care in Israel likes it or not. However, i do not feel Israel needs too or should give up one spec of land that they have for this. It is their country. As soon as everyone else in that region accepts that and stops attacking them then there will be peace between them. Never has Israel attacked or gone outside their borders except in self defense, having been attacked first. This is nothing less than the US or any other country in the world would do. Frankly, here in the US if we kept getting missled and suicide bombed we would destroy and occupy the state doing it. Look, after 911, we took over and occupied 2 countries, and that was only for one day of getting hit.

Bombs are a recent invention that was beyond the ability of the non-military peeps to build/create until very recently (last few decades). The only reason why they could even build them is because they have recruited educated engineers among their ranks who create bombs using everyday materials. Suicide bombers rose shortly after the homemade bomb production was mastered by the insurgent groups who are vastly outclassed by the government/occupation military.

So in light of that fact, you don't actually have a legitimate point.



The keyword that you're glazing over here is IDEALS. Religious, political, national...whatever. The point is, people fight for what they believe in. Wars have started all over the world due to conflicting ideals. IT doesn't matter what the basis for their idealism is, it doesn't make their fight any less legitimate in their eyes. A resistance fighter in Iraq for example or the 18th century Americans might be fighting for their country (as in to free themselves from foreign oppressors), but people from the outside viewing in might view them as terrorists/rebels due to the propaganda/misinformation disseminated by the dominant force.



Thriving, seriously? Have you looked at your local native american population recently? They're among the lowest socioeconomic groups in the entire nation. They're right down with the drug-users, alcoholics and the urban homeless. If it wasn't for the fact that they had reservations and government welfare support they'd be worse off.



This is yet another ignorant post tinged with racism. The best thing the US is doing is buying foreign oil while holding their national supply in reserve. The politicians and economists realize this very fact. The US doesn't have enough oil production on its own to supply its current or future energy needs even if they do have some of the world's largest oil reserves. Ramping up its national production to supply the local market would result in the reserves running out that much faster.

Blocking food exports (grain, which is good and all but there are other staple foods out there; rice for example which are is as good if not better) wouldn't exactly starve them. They'd still have the rest of the world to supply them and it would only serve to stunt the growth of the heavily subsidized american agricultural sector.

On the other hand, water...is always sourced locally unless you're Singapore so they wouldn't be "searching for it on their camels" (oh wow, racist quip by the Deerman)

______________________________

I'm just going to make a general reply to the other posts since I don't have time to quote each and every one.

1. Israel was created as a result of the oppression of the local populace already living there.
2. Pre-Israel, the majority of the population were Arabs (+-2M vs 600k) with Jewish growth almost entirely caused by immigration from Europe.
3. Due to the increasing tension and conflict caused by the Zionists towards the Arabs, the Brits forwarded the matter (of the Jewish-Arab conflict) to the UN.
4. The UN then recommended that the respective parties agree to a separate state deal in which the Jews end up with over 50% of the land despite the fact that the Jews only owned 7% of the land in British-controlled Palestine*. Obviously, no one wants to give uphalf their land and home to minority foreigners, so it was a no-brainer. The Arabs made their objection clear.

*Note, the UN does not have the power to create a State and UN could not enforce/carry out its recommendations without the consent of all parties involved.

5. Despite the fact that it was solely a recommendation and not a plan of action, On May 14, the Zionist leadership unilaterally declared the existence of the State of Israel, citing Resolution 181 as constituting “recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State”

6. U.N. General Assembly Resolution 181 neither legally partitioned Palestine nor conferred upon the Zionist leadership any legal authority to unilaterally declare the existence of the Jewish state of Israel. It merely recommended that the UNSCOP partition plan be accepted and implemented by the concerned parties. Naturally, to have any weight of law, the plan, like any contract, would have to have been formally agreed upon by both parties, which it was not. Nor could the General Assembly have legally partitioned Palestine or otherwise conferred legal authority for the creation of Israel to the Zionist leadership, as it simply had no such authority to confer. When the Security Council took up the matter referred to it by the General Assembly, it could come to no consensus on how to proceed with implementing the partition plan. It being apparent that the plan could not be implemented by peaceful means, the suggestion that it be implemented by force was rejected by members of the Security Council. The simple fact of the matter is that the plan was never implemented.

____________________________

So in short, Israel never existed until the Zionists took the land using violence and then expanded it by using well-armed militias to forcibly remove the local Arab population from their land (kill, rape, pillage..etc). Nor did the UN create it or grant the land to the Jews. They took it by force.

Source: http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/...e-u-n-creation-of-israel/

+1 iNouda, well said.

Regarding the local oil reserves, Earth Empires provides a great view of this. Oil prices are going to continue to rise and the world supply decreases and the cost to get at what remains increases. So, would you harvest and sell all your oil now and then buy from the public market later or would you buy from the public market now and let the value of your stock continue to rise knowing that you'll have it later when you might need it and supply is tight?

Walking away from buying foreign oil would be a huge favor to the Chinese, who are working very hard to lock up energy sources through 50-100 year contracts all around the world right now. Lots of activity on that front in Africa by the Chinese.

Back to Israel / Palestine. iNouda summed it up very well. My personal preference for a compromise has been to go back to the agreed Oslo Peace Accord and the lines that were drawn then. Israel claims that is "impossible" because of their ever-expanding settlements that have continued to displace the Palestinians after they signed that accord. They claim this continued expansion was justified and that accord was nullified because of attacks by the Palestinians. That is BS, IMHO.

My ideal would be for people to get their heads out of the collective asses where they are blinded by their religion. Israel has some of the most well educated and well financed people in the world. They could build a much more successful and less threatened society almost anywhere else in the world if they weren't so enamored with that particular piece of land. the Palestinians were not only their first, but they are much less mobile or capable of successful relocation.

Omg the 6 day battle actually counts as a war?

Also I am fairly sure if the arab states wanted they could crush Israel with sheer numbers, and get the land back? Would that be fair in your eyes?



On the other hand there have been several battles for land in the last couple of decades, the most famous ones are the palestine/israel fiasco and the Iran/india problem, there was also the argentinian/Britain battle for the Falklands with contrary to the later 2 is utter bullfluff.

I think first we have to agree that Israel isn't entilted to that land, they took it, and when they did they fluffed over a lot of people, so we should also agree that any kind of retaliation is possible, and in the eyes of the people they fluffed over justified.

So when a suicide bomber goes off in a market place, when civilians get killed, is a simple application of cause and effect, and you may cry me a river and I sure as hell won't give a fluff.

Ok I am writing this from a phone and only in the short breaks at work, so I probably wandered off my own ideas, so let's just say:

India/Iran: fighting over a portion of land with no huge population centers, is a fight for resourses and can't be clearer than that, so good luck to both sides.

Israel/Palestine: both claim the moral high ground of who is right, and to me is clear Israel needs to stufu, they have as much right to that land as me, so they should just say they are assholes and be done with the whole fiasco of who is right and who deserves the land.

Argentine/Britain: Britain needs to drop dead for that, they are thousands of miles away, I mean they probably didn't even remembered that was theirs until argentine anexed it :P

And yes my grammar will suck, and will cause your eyes to bleed.

"So in short, Israel never existed until the Zionists took the land using violence and then expanded it by using well-armed militias to forcibly remove the local Arab population from their land (kill, rape, pillage..etc)."

America never existed until it took the land using violence and then expanded it by using well armed militias to forcibly remove local native (redundant? :P) populations from their land (kill, rape, pillage, etc.. oh and smallpox, can't forget that)

I don't see anybody calling for the return of north america to the native man? Why not?

Inouda earns 3 stars and a cookie

Braden because it is too late, what can we honestly do about that? We can only look back and agree your own grandparents were assholes, maybe think about that before you hit that immigrant with the baseball bat.

We can do something about this fluff because is happening now, and now we know better as to what is right and wrong... Or maybe we don't...

my jewish bulgarian great grandfather who left religious persecution so him and his family could live in peace, yes he's the asshole, how foolish of me.

If you demand isreal give back any land, you had better fluffing demand america do the same.

i think it goes like this,

broadways turning into coney
champange charlies drinking gin
old new york is new and phony
give it back to the indians

(and two cents more to smoke a Lucky)

Braden...

I didn't mean your grand parents, I means the grand parents of the so called true americans with their white power bs and immigrants must die policy, if I confused you with my bs grammar I am trully sorry.

No back to the issues:

Isn't the same, the natives that lost their land, the ones that got raped, the ones that got killed are long dead, even if everyone agrees that what happened to them is wrong, you can't make it right, you'll never be able to make it right.

You can ask for forgiveness a million of times per day, you can give them the land back, you can suck their fluffs and you will never make it right.

On the other hand the ones that are losing their land, the ones getting Raped, the ones with parents got killed in something that anyone that knows all the history would say is bs, those are the ones we can help.

My country is the first colony of the so called new world, my teachers are clear that we can't honestly do anything for the natives that are long gone, all we can do is remember what was done to them, honor their culture and what little remains of them, and finally to nerver ever allow the same thing to happen.

You are dead wrong if you think the other Arabs in the mid east will take back Israel in the next 100 years. You are forgetting that the US is deff pacted with Israel. Let them try and then we will destroy their countries and then not have to pay for their overpriced oil. How do you like that?


Get over yourselves. Israel's country belongs to itself. Maybe you need to look to the movies to understand the Arab people- try watching Lawernce of Arabia. They you will understand that leaving that group of people alone and they will be more than happy to kill each other. Even if Israel gave all its land to them they would still not be happy. They would still hate westerners and want to kill. For religious reasons of course- that way its all justified.

i'm singing show tunes, chaos, i wasn't offended at all :P

neither was i taking anything i said very seriously (outside living in peace beside people you might not like, that i'm down with)

Ok.

I already made my point of view clear, no reason to keep posting.

I have always believed that what was done to the Native American population was terrible. That being said, we have done far more for that population here (whether it is *enough* or not being another debate) than Israel has done for the Palestinians.

Everyone seems to want Israel to "compromise". Please be specific and describe exactly what you woul dhave

I can answer that Alter Ego- they want either every Jew in the mid east either dead or gone from the region. Thats the real answer to that question. They say compromise but thats the truth.

dh - the short answer to your question is to stop arming one side to fight the other, and let them sort things themselves. Most of the animosity towards the US in that region is due to us arming whoever was fighting on the side we supported (which was generally whoever was fighting the Russians, and now the regimes that rose to power because of it).

At this point though, it will be several decades before that animosity fades, I'm afraid.

Well for starters demanding 50% of a piece of land that wasn't yours to begin with, even though their numbers are 10 times fewer than the Palestine...


And nice way to try to call us nazis this has nothing to do with that, we can see what is right and wrong, so playing the nazi card won't change the fact that what is going there is wrong.


Or are you saying that if US had gone and gave Native Americans Panama in order to make it right for them that wouldn't be wrong as hell as well?

You want to make up to the jews for what happened in WW2? go and give them Land in EUROPE, German land for starters, don't go and take the land of those that had nothing to do with it.

I would think resettling them in the areas they were originally displaced from would be the best approach.

The problem in Palestine/Israel is that all 3 major religious groups in the region (Christians, Jews, and Muslims) lay some sort of claim to it as holy land for their religion. It's very difficult to negotiate a satisfactory solution for everyone in a situation like that, which means at least 1 group is always going to feel shorted.

dang, thought i'd get to call you a few more names before you went suicidal...
meh, braver than me, i wouldn't step anywhere near something that a Zionist was willing to violate a commandment over.

Dibs who are you talking too? I don't think anyone here is suicidal?

Chaoswind- you prove my point exactly. When asked what would make everything right in the mid east- you say "Well for starters demanding 50% of a piece of land"

However, you do not say that would satisfy the arabs. You still have not answered my question. That is the problem- you guys make nothing but demands but are never satisfied with anything. There is always something to complain about. I think most of the rest of the world is tired of hearing your carping BUNK. Deal with it. And know if you invade Israel, just like bombing the US- it will result in your demise as well and thousands of people from your country. See, our side talks softly- but we carry a stick big enough to wipe your side off the face of the earth. Lucky for you we are a good and forgiving people, tolerant of ignorance like your spouting.

From my country?

Now you are talking fluff

is pretty clear to me that you just want to bait people into an argument, so good luck with that cannibal troll.

Americans talk softly?


LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!

Also let's put this in perspective for you DeerHunter.

An Alien race comes to Earth with their huge space ships and weapons and tell us we have to give them 50% of our planet, and they want highly populated areas close to big bodies of water, and if we disagree they shove their big guns and blow some of our cities just to make a point.

Sounds completely fair right? I mean they have big guns and there is no way we can do anything about it, so they are in the right to take anything they want, even if we disagree.

Oh and before you say the big and brave americans would fight back, let's make things clear:

1) Any race capable of deep space travel can and should rape us with ease, there is no weapon on earth capable to put a dent on a space ship that can stand high speed meteor colitions, space radiation, etc.

2) There is no way we can actually and effectively understand technology that is several tiers more advanced than ours.

3) Movies are bullfluff, a more advanced enemy is impossible to beat, look at the Native americans, look at Iraq, and the technology disparity wasn't as huge, still ended with the more advanced enemy winning, so big bad space travel race vs our fluff, has a clear victor...

And you all had this discussion anyway, regardless of the fact that those directly involved saw it coming and tried to avert it.

Well done! You've all lost the right to independent thought. Please cease your injunction cases against your various national governments, it's gone for good.

Chaoswind, there is nothing fair in life. To answer your question it that happened we would prob have to give the aliens half our land. Now i ask you- what is fair about a guy over in Iraq who is American but there trying to help rebuild that country. Then he is kidnapped and the bastards cut off his head? what did he do? nothing. No, there is no fair in life. Is it fair you were made to look so ugly? Is it fair you were born without enough wits to see the big picture? no. Just do the best with what you got and hope. Good luck in your cess pool.

Alter_Ego - several posts up I provided mine:

"My personal preference for a compromise has been to go back to the agreed Oslo Peace Accord and the lines that were drawn then."

I'm not saying every party would be happy with that solution. In fact, in most compromises no party is entirely happy with the solution. But this is one that I would support.

I would also support getting all of the Israelis out of Israel and giving them land here in the United States and/or in Europe. I just think that solution is even less realistic than the one above.

something about the palistine israeli conflict that will soon be very intresting is the fact that turkey has said that they will send naval vessels to escort the ship to gaza convoys.
now the intresting thing is gonna be first of all if they do it.

if they do and israel in the normal fashion resorts to military intervention the intresting thing will be to see what nato will do as turkey is part of nato...

if another country tried to land a vessel in the us they would be met with military intervention too. And the US will do nothing- i promise that.

You really need to travel DH. The surrounding 3 or 4 states to your current home doesn't count.

OMG, I agree with DH on this one!

At least, I also wouldn't expect the US to intervene. We'll be there, hanging out in the Mediterranean, but we need Turkey's continued support against Syria right now much more than we care if a flotilla reaches Palestine or not.

Heck, you would think with Turkey-Syria relations at a historic low this would be a great time for Israel to play nice with Turkey and work for change in Syria. But that would be too logical....

Back from Palestine. Asshat israelis gave me problems again. No surprise there. Will be back to full activity on the 24th.

Don't worry TAN....I heard it only takes 2-3 days to be able to sit down properly again :-)

regardless of your stance on the israel/palestine issue I don't buy the argument that if that piece of real estate dissappeared or if it was given to the palestineans that this would magically solve the problems occurring in the rest of the middle east. There is a tremendous amount of conflicting Arab tribalism dating back to pre-islamic times. Most of that land has been conquered and reconquered numerous times because of its strategic location throughout history.
Even if we start with the byzantines and work forward it's a pretty messy history. As an aside, the mongols omgwtfbbq'd the region good.

"1) Any race capable of deep space travel can and should rape us with ease, there is no weapon on earth capable to put a dent on a space ship that can stand high speed meteor colitions, space radiation, etc."

The bacteria in our water, Chaos.

"I heard it takes 2-3 days.."

Yeah sure...."heard"

oh and..

blah blah blah palestine bad, isreal bad, yada yada oil peak mclovin text text wall of text.

Martain i agree with you and that is why i advocate for US energy independence so we can then sit back leave the mid east and let them be happy just killing each other, for tribal reasons (your guy killed my goat i stole your camel ect).

have you not realized that has been the implicit energy policy of the US for 30-40 years?
Bleed the mid-east dry and then focus on North American production until we are weaned off of fossil fuels all together.
It's the only semi-intelligent reason I can think of for why the US hasn't had a coherent, publicly stated energy policy since the 50s or 60s.

Just be happy we have water & oil in North America. Poor China, India and the rest of Asia.

step one: steal everyone elses resources
step two: hoard your own
step three: profits!

I think your step 2 is the missing step in the underpant gnomes business model, martian!

You are actually bringing that up?

Is not like Technology can't deal with foreign diseases, when you travel there are vaccines to deal with the most common diseases in the place you plan to go, why does anyone believe that non sense of the movies?

If they plan to come here, If they are capable of space travel, then they will take the most necessary precautions, I mean humanity can't achieve deep space travel and we are already messing with gene therapy, so wtf man.

going to the country gonna get myself some peaches

I'll just stay away from this thread.