Please send all FA queries to detmer until Monday, when I return. Hopefully the israelis won't pull any shenanigans.

Going to Palestine?

You realize there is no such place... right?

after Tan goes there it won't exist

Have a great trip! Be safe, and take some pics for us!

Damnit. Had to renew my jordanian passport before they let me leave the country. Just got it renewed. Will try going back in an hour or two and hopefully the border will still be open.

h4: there is no country called Palestine, but there is a place. I don't care to argue this point with you.

I am going to Narnia. Please direct all FA queries to Paladin.

Im going to neverland im not FA so i dont care where your FA queries go :)

/me goes to Hogwarts

Hell just rejected my passport application :(

it's Israel and always will be.

is it too soon for a michael jackson joke? I had one here but thought it may be distasteful.

I'm heading to Bedrock this weekend for some fishing. I'm looking forward to the boat's motor being a wise-cracking otter.

Also, aren't the Palestinian Authority folks going to try and declare statehood at the UN soon? I was reading an article about it recently... Israel warned of "dire consequences" if they do it, so be careful!

Isreal probably doesn't want it to happen because it would likely mean they couldn't squeeze any more land out of them.

"Hopefully the israelis won't pull any shenanigans." Like what defending themselves? From what i have seen they have been attacked since their country was created. Now, if they take some land after winning a war that they did not start and keep it- good for them. Otherwise, i see nothing they have ever done that any other nation would not have also done.

FYI- I am not a Jew. I just don't have ill will towards them just because they exist. At least their religion doesn't teach them to kill everyone else who is not Jewish.

oh god - do we really have to start kicking this dead horse again?

The only difference of who's defending themselves from who these days is which side you happen to identify with. After this many thousands of years, I'm pretty sure everyone involved has pretty much lost track of who looked at who funny first.

Islam does not dicate the murder of non-muslims, it is a belief held by a fringe group of extremists based on a misinterpretation (or more likely bastardization) of text from the Quran, and a complete lack of understanding of the western world of the religion. The fact that you're willing to make that statement really illustrates your ignorance to the larger issue at hand.

Can we please let this go before it goes to the general level of stupidity this conversation reaches?

DH - "From what i have seen they have been attacked since their country was created."

Yeah, about that.... that would be the main source of contention. When "their country was created" nobody bothered to ask the people who lived there.

Relocate all the people (jews and muslims) who live in that area and nuke it, and save us all the headache. Put the 2 groups faaaar away from eachother, they clearly can't find a way to get along.

They would probably manage if it weren't for 1/2 the world's governments trying to influence who's right and wrong for their own gain.

the irony is that about 90% of the middle east's current probs can be traced back to britain/america meddling....

best look at me post this set.

Atryn said it best...


I'm not anti-semetic or even racist for that matter (just to be VERY clear here), but what the jews did (and continue to do) is wrong. They should back the fluff off and leave those poor people alone.

Drow - don't forget Iraq/Iran/Syria/Egypt/Etc, just meddling on the other side of the issue.

Unfortunately, that little corner of the world is viewed as a chess piece to further other nation's goals with little respect for the realities of the situation it creates.

Not buying it. The middle east has been a violent place way before America was even founded. Thanks but try again.

Problem is it is the Jewish homeland dating back to Biblical times. Both sides are very right and very wrong here. The only obvious solution is to come to a compromise and stick with it. Unfortunately it seems Israel is unhappy with anything short of everything. (Why am I not surprised that Republican politicians are generally the strongest supporters of Israel? (although there are notable exceptions like Russ Feingold)) Regardless, as a Jew I feel that the Israelis are the bad guys here - not because they don't have cause, but because they seem entirely unwilling to compromise.

sigma - the world is a violent place. why do you think the middle east is some sort of special exception above the rule?

"the irony is that about 90% of the middle east's current probs can be traced back to britain/america meddling...."

Maybe we should have left Germany alone and let them have Europe. I think all you haters out there should maybe be thanking "britain/america" instead of blaming us. Yes we did "create" that "state" for the Jews after WW2. It was due to the fact that the Germans and others had displaced MILLIONS of Jews (not counting the ones they killed) during the war. So, the Jews needed their own state.

As far as asking the people who lived there? Well, They lost it to the Germans, we took it, then gave it away. Sorry about your luck but to the victor goes the spoils. Do ya really think Japan would have given the US back had they won the war? Or Germany give the mideast back? No. With knowing there was no way to please everyone and in the spirit of trying to be as fair as possible, they "created" the Jewish state. I realize there is no way to please everyone. And when you complain and blame the Jews don't forget how small their piece of the pie is (uber tiny state).

I do not have strong feelings for the Jews. I think i understand where they are coming from and i have sympathy for them. If that makes me a bad guy so be it. At least i am not riding around protests in a camel's back waving a machete around trying to hurt people. I guess if i was i would be the good guy in many of your eyes.

You're only missing about 3,000 years of history in your analysis Deerhunter.

which 3,00 years is that?, The Jews were there then also, They were there during the Ottoman Empire too in fact there was a few attempts to "BUY" the land from the Ottoman's over a few hundred years. As For Independance that was Post WW2 whose territory was it? There were both Large Jewish and Palastinian settelments on the area Known as Trans-Jordan Aand Under British Control? So when those Jewish settlements Choose to Make Indepence and form their own State How did it Become an Eygptian, Syrian, Iraq and all the others problem.

I think the Jews should support an Independant Palastine so when they get attacked then it will be treated just like anywhere else in the World when a Nation becomes attacked from another country, and no one would question their right to defend themselves nor to destroy their enemy.

oh and enjoy the trip went touring some years back, mostly in Israeli controlled areas but you got to enjoy the historical perspective of it all.

Because our civs started there?

"not because they don't have cause, but because they seem entirely unwilling to compromise."

like firing katyusha rockets at schools and vests of dynamite into coffee shops comparmise? Yes, they are unwilling. America doesn't negotiate with terrorists, either, and I would never expect them to.

"we took it, then gave it away."

Freed the entire planet, and then gave it back to who it belonged to. If you can't live happily beside your neighbour, then you get what comes to you. Live in peace, or die however the fluff you choose to, two simple choices in life. A lot of good people died so that this argument isn't in german or japanese (spreken zie deutsch?), I personally thank Britain and America for meddling. Meddle away, boys, and spread the disease that is democracy and human rights!

"You're only missing about 3,000 years of history in your analysis Deerhunter."

This is the lamest statement i have ever heard. Yes i only went back 100 years because no one is still alive from there past that. What claim does an arab have from 3000 years ago? Thats like saying you still owe me rent cause your great relatives rented a cave from my gramps and never paid him. Or as base as an African American saying that the US gov owes them money because their great, great, great, great, great, great gramps was a slave. I don't think so. That crap was worked out before any of us was alive. I don't owe you or anyone else for what happened before i was alive. Your point has no merrit other than to help understand history. If your point is you are in a poor country cause your culture has a history of being poor and concured then too bad. I do not feel sorry for you. Get over people who are no longer alive loosing land before you were born. Why not focus on making something productive of yourself and loose the crutch? Or is this just because you are racist NOW3P? I ask only because it seems you have a hard on for the Jews.

I don't have a hard on for anyone. I'm simply stating that you can't summarize relations between two cultures that have spanned several millenia by evaluating the last 100 years - it's just short sighted and incomplete, especially when they've been fighting over the same thing for a good majority of that time.

Where exactly did I state that the Jews had any more or any less right to the land than the Muslims? Quite frankly, I think they BOTH have equal legitimate claim to the land, and are fighting because they're different and because it's what they've always done, not because one is more correct than the other.

Thanks for the knee-jerk racist accusation though. It does make it much easier to write off your opinion as useless, and not very well informed.

Where did i accuse you? i asked you. I still believe its wrong for them to fight over offenses done before this lifetime. Nothing is owed to them. They should get over it and learn from history by not repeating it. Not just saying you owe me cause my ancestors were wimpy.

Also you don't need an excuse to dismiss my ideas- you already did that anyway. The ignorant always do.

DH: I think your assertion about the Germans in the ME "They lost it to the Germans, we took it, then gave it away." is way off base. You seem to be discounting the role of the Ottoman Empire entirely. They were allied to Germany, but they weren't part of it.

I believe this is a pretty good summary, though anyone could take issue with parts of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/...80%93Palestinian_conflict

As for another of your statements: "Yes we did "create" that "state" for the Jews after WW2. It was due to the fact that the Germans and others had displaced MILLIONS of Jews (not counting the ones they killed) during the war. So, the Jews needed their own state."

Yes, very very convenient for the West to give the Jews their much needed state on SOMEONE ELSE'S LAND. Seriously, we have so much extra land here in N.A., why didn't we create a state for them here? OH YES, that takes us back to the conflict that pre-dated your 100-year view. The Jews didn't want just ANY state, they wanted their state RIGHT THERE because of those 1000s of years of history you wanted to overlook.

IMHO, we should have given the Jews something like Montana. (no particular reason for picking Montana, and I'm sorry if I offend anyone from there). They could have lived in peace and built a new Jerusalem... Of course, coming from someone who doesn't believe the Old Testament is the word of God, I really don't care where they think they need to be before the end of the world.

I'm with Deerhunter on this.

Otherwise, all you Americans should go back to Europe where you belong, no?

Looking at only 100 years of a 3000 year conflict is weird.

Based on that logic, WWI is only relevant for another 8 years. Enjoy it while it lasts.

How do you know why WWII starts if you don't know anything about WWI?

diez: Not sure what you are suggesting there... are you saying that Americans should have some sort of right of return to Europe and the ability to take land there back from anyone who has occupied it since our ancestors left? The ability to come back to Europe and demand our own state be provided?

My assertion was that if *we* felt the Jews deserved their own state, *we* should have provided it on land *we* owned, rather than saying "yeah, you deserve it, go take their land and we'll back you up".

Of course, the above statement is very amusing considering this is the Alliance forum on Earth Empires and that is essentially how alliances here operate. ;)

Pang if you read everything you would see i said to learn from history- so as not to repeat it. That does not mean IOU's exist for land lost 1000's of years ago from people who have been dead for 1000's of years. I hope you understand what i am getting at. To simplify it, there is no one left alive to claim back the land they lost. So the ones alive now need to get over it. Learn, but loose the crutch.

Agreed and I am 1/4 jew

There are plenty of people who are alive today that lost their land/homes in the conflict.

There were refugee camps in Syria as recently as 25 - 30 years ago filled with palestinians who had been driven from their homes.

They didn't lose the land 1000's of years ago, the people who lost it are still very much alive (some of them anyway)

"diez: Not sure what you are suggesting there... are you saying that Americans should have some sort of right of return to Europe and the ability to take land there back from anyone who has occupied it since our ancestors left?"

I don't want to put words in his mouth, he may have been entirely facetious, but i think he meant that america should give the land back to the natives, and get the fluff back to where they came from, much like the jews should for palestine

immigration should be banned across the planet, as you can only move into somebodys elses land. i'm down.

*spam check*

Soooooo.....the guy who refuses to look at the entire picture and thinks Islam dictates killing non-Muslims is the educated one, and the guy who's a supporter of looking at the big picture is the ignorant one?

Spoken like an American who hasn't seen much but...

What is your point? I didn't say anything to the contrary and I think it proves my point further. I said, in response to Drow playing the blame America card, that the middle east was a violent place before America was ever founded.

and just about everywhere else in the world as well

I just think it's unfair to single out the middle east as violent for justification of an argument when other areas of the world were just as violent in the same time periods. It's akin to saying something like Britain is bad because they're dependent on fuel oils still.

The initial statement was that there was a correlation between American involvement and the incidence of violence.

Sigma's comment infers that no such correlation can be drawn. I don't see how this is unfair or inconsistent.

That much I agree with.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the intent, but it sounds to me like Sigma is saying that the middle east was a particularly violent place in comparison to the rest of the world throughout history, which I don't agree with.

If that's not the case, and he is indeed saying what you just said, then I don't have any contention with what he's saying, and it's a simple misunderstanding.

The only thing that might make the middle east seem more violent is that I don't think there's ever been any time in recorded history where so many people were willing to become suicide bombers.. then again, I really have no statistical data to back that up; things like Japanese kamikaze pilots (which is still a suicide attack) are similar.

Similar yes but they died fighting for their country not religious ideals.