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M59Gar

Member

38

Sep 17th 2019, 23:47:17

What I mean is -

I'm 2 mil networth.

Joe Bob is 1 mil networth.

I spy him. He's used up most of his turns, has half my military, nothing much going on.

I log on in the morning, I've been attacked successfully and he's got 3-4 mil networth.

This is a typical experience for Earth Empires - people jumping networth massively out of nowhere.

What am I missing? This isn't a complaint thread. I'm saying this game has some sort of higher level strategy that is completely opaque to new players. What is the exact specific process behind veteran players' ability to massively jump networth and military with no resources apparent on basic spy?

KoHeartsGPA

Member

20,470

Sep 18th 2019, 0:33:29

Market spy
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

M59Gar

Member

38

Sep 18th 2019, 1:32:49

Ok, market spy, what am I looking for? Huge numbers of bushels? How and why is he acquiring huge numbers of bushels? Is it a proxy for value to avoid paying expenses on military? Personally I have never made a single round of market sales that doubles my networth - is this something to do with the word 'stocking'? What exactly is stocking and why do people do it?

KoHeartsGPA

Member

20,470

Sep 18th 2019, 1:42:31

That's just a clue and not even the tip of the iceberg in terms of what goes on in netting, my recommendation is to join one of the 1a alliance for training purposes, however there will be other people here that will point you in the direction of netting :-)
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

bug03

Member

1368

Sep 18th 2019, 2:25:51

Your questions are a little confusing so I’ll try and piece a response together.

Different strategies produce net worth in different ways. A commie Indy may only need a few turns to double their net worth early on. However, the end goal is always the same.
Acquire land
Purchase defense enough to keep the land
Build and purchase tech to increase efficiency
Purchase excess bushels to save money for end game

M59Gar

Member

38

Sep 18th 2019, 5:25:51

"Purchase excess bushels to save money for end game"

I think this is what I'm after. Can you detail this process more thoroughly?

I'm reaching a point with, for example, a Republic Casher where my expenses are undermining my cash generation. I'm advancing in a linear manner while other countries are skyrocketing in networth. This bushel purchasing thing, is that some way to avoid that problem?

bug03

Member

1368

Sep 18th 2019, 5:47:40

Yes. In lieu of purchasing more military and creating higher expenses, purchasing bushels to be sold on the public market at an exorbitant price so that they don’t sell allows them to be saved from decay.

Last set, for example, I had ~44k land and ~30 mil net worth and was at about net zero as a demo farmer until two days before the end of the reset. Also had 300mil bushels that I sold over two days to end at 85mil nw.

M59Gar

Member

38

Sep 18th 2019, 6:05:14

Ahhh! Thank you!

3 questions:

1: Doesn't this tactic leave you open to attacks by random people?

2: By selling bushels, do you mean to your private market, or to the public market? If to the public, who buys them if everybody else is trying to sell bushels too?

3: Is selling at the end what people mean by 'destocking'?

UgolinoII

Member

545

Sep 18th 2019, 12:15:40

Originally posted by M59Gar:
I'm reaching a point with, for example, a Republic Casher where my expenses are undermining my cash generation


That should *never* be the case as a casher. Sounds like you might have a tech problem. You want at the very least 10 points per acre each of bus/res, and as the reset progresses that should be more like 30+

Bus/res are multiplicative. ie
Both at 120% gives overall x1.42 modifier to income
Both at 140% gives overall x1.96 modifier to income
Both at 160% gives overall x2.56 modifier to income
Both at 180% gives overall x3.24 modifier to income

going to 180% is not worth it though but you can see how high 170s will still give you almost 3x income.

Edited By: UgolinoII on Sep 18th 2019, 12:18:51. Reason: moar tech stuff
See Original Post

bug03

Member

1368

Sep 18th 2019, 17:55:26

Originally posted by M59Gar:
Ahhh! Thank you!

3 questions:

1: Doesn't this tactic leave you open to attacks by random people?

2: By selling bushels, do you mean to your private market, or to the public market? If to the public, who buys them if everybody else is trying to sell bushels too?

3: Is selling at the end what people mean by 'destocking'?


1. Yes, you must balance how much defense you have with your expenses. Buy weapons tech

2. Sell on the public market not to sell the bushels but to hold them (like a bank) you sell them at the end of the reset (usually in private market)

3. Yes. When you destock you’re turning your cash and bushels into military for net worth. Never have more than $2b or 100x your turn consumption of food on hand.

bug03

Member

1368

Sep 18th 2019, 17:56:42

And as ugo said, buy lots of tech. As a casher tech is vital. You should never be less than 160 and attempt to be in the 170s at all times.

momo

Member

58

Sep 18th 2019, 18:30:47

Thanks bug03 for the seminar, that was quite informitive.

M59Gar

Member

38

Sep 20th 2019, 3:18:12

That's super helpful. Now I understand. Early in a set I feel as if everyone else is doing horribly - aka I'm in the #1 spot and nobody's networth is rising.

But that's because they're accumulating huge amounts of cash and bushels. Their networth is 'hidden'. Can't be attacked, can't be seen on score, because it's on the public market to preserve it.

People build up millions of bushels, then at the end of a set, sell it to private market and then cash in, buying military off the public market.

I had no idea this was going on.

It seems as if this is not a game of making decisions in an evolving set. It's actually a game of making linear equations intersect on private spreadsheets. AKA, I grow linearly in a hidden manner for X hundred turns, destock at the end, hope I'm at a higher networth than other guys all secretly doing the same thing.

Edited By: M59Gar on Sep 20th 2019, 3:27:15
See Original Post

Cumorah

Member

116

Sep 20th 2019, 3:27:48

Originally posted by M59Gar:
That's super helpful. Now I understand. Early in a set I feel as if everyone else is doing horribly - aka I'm in the #1 spot and nobody's networth is rising.

But that's because they're accumulating huge amounts of cash and bushels. Their networth is 'hidden'. Can't be attacked, can't be seen on score, because it's on the public market to preserve it.

People build up millions of bushels, then at the end of a set, sell it to private market and then cash in, buying military off the public market.

I had no idea this was going on.


Yeah, pay no attention to the current top 10 - most won’t be there by the end of the set.

KoHeartsGPA

Member

20,470

Sep 20th 2019, 3:30:36

None
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

DeLpHiNuS

Member

523

Sep 20th 2019, 13:27:27

Originally posted by KoHeartsGPA:
None


Dalrymple should be remaining top 10 at least.. he was daintree last round and decapolis 2 rounds ago..

a side note, can u veterans stop changing nick every round? so hard to find the old pals to avoid hitting lol..

Serpentor

Member

2687

Sep 20th 2019, 17:17:34

Originally posted by M59Gar:
That's super helpful. Now I understand. Early in a set I feel as if everyone else is doing horribly - aka I'm in the #1 spot and nobody's networth is rising.

But that's because they're accumulating huge amounts of cash and bushels. Their networth is 'hidden'. Can't be attacked, can't be seen on score, because it's on the public market to preserve it.

People build up millions of bushels, then at the end of a set, sell it to private market and then cash in, buying military off the public market.

I had no idea this was going on.

It seems as if this is not a game of making decisions in an evolving set. It's actually a game of making linear equations intersect on private spreadsheets. AKA, I grow linearly in a hidden manner for X hundred turns, destock at the end, hope I'm at a higher networth than other guys all secretly doing the same thing.


Not all strategies stockpile on this server though. Some spend the majority of the round putting all resources into gaining massive land and buying tech. 😜
The EEVIL Empire

KoHeartsGPA

Member

20,470

Sep 20th 2019, 20:16:25

Originally posted by DeLpHiNuS:
Originally posted by KoHeartsGPA:
None


Dalrymple should be remaining top 10 at least.. he was daintree last round and decapolis 2 rounds ago..

a side note, can u veterans stop changing nick every round? so hard to find the old pals to avoid hitting lol..


Yeah ok him is good :-)


Lol yeah I went back to one of my old names, some folks recognized it and sent me a PM, I'm #16 :-)
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

M59Gar

Member

38

Sep 22nd 2019, 11:08:36

I think the veterans probably change nick constantly because if you're not top 10, you're nothing, so everyone not in the top 10 more or less just screws around getting in pointless wars (at least on Express). Every set also seems to have a % chance to simply run into one of the crazies who suicides on you the whole time. If you keep the same name, they'll just attack you again out of the blue, since they're pissed off and not thinking with spreadsheets.

KoHeartsGPA

Member

20,470

Sep 23rd 2019, 0:33:04

Originally posted by M59Gar:
I think the veterans probably change nick constantly because if you're not top 10, you're nothing, so everyone not in the top 10 more or less just screws around getting in pointless wars (at least on Express). Every set also seems to have a % chance to simply run into one of the crazies who suicides on you the whole time. If you keep the same name, they'll just attack you again out of the blue, since they're pissed off and not thinking with spreadsheets.


Not really, look at our profiles :-)
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

Serpentor

Member

2687

Sep 23rd 2019, 4:37:43

Who uses spreadsheets on primary?

You gotta be a 1A LaFer to use spreadsheets. Laaaaaame!

The EEVIL Empire

jpc9988

Member

21

Sep 23rd 2019, 13:49:48

This is very helpful!

Trump

Member

95

Sep 23rd 2019, 15:02:45

Originally posted by M59Gar:
That's super helpful. Now I understand. Early in a set I feel as if everyone else is doing horribly - aka I'm in the #1 spot and nobody's networth is rising.

But that's because they're accumulating huge amounts of cash and bushels. Their networth is 'hidden'. Can't be attacked, can't be seen on score, because it's on the public market to preserve it.

People build up millions of bushels, then at the end of a set, sell it to private market and then cash in, buying military off the public market.

I had no idea this was going on.

It seems as if this is not a game of making decisions in an evolving set. It's actually a game of making linear equations intersect on private spreadsheets. AKA, I grow linearly in a hidden manner for X hundred turns, destock at the end, hope I'm at a higher networth than other guys all secretly doing the same thing.

Your conclusion is right, but I think you may have a mistaken impression of the bushel thing. There's unlikely to be good players stocking significant bushels at this point in the game or any time soon, because the value of those bushels would be better spent as a growth investment (tech, military to grab or defend land with).

If you are first for the first few days and then fall off it's either because your country isn't specialized or efficient (buildings focused on one strategy with tech to enhance this strategy), or isn't growing its production enough to keep up with those that are expanding.

commander1972

Member

114

Sep 23rd 2019, 17:19:09

yeah, it would be crazy to be buying food at 30 ;D

humicroav

Member

159

Sep 23rd 2019, 21:44:19

I was number 1 for a few days. I'm not very good at this. Y'all be nice to me.
ur mom playz erf2025

bug03

Member

1368

Sep 23rd 2019, 22:03:30

Originally posted by humicroav:
I was number 1 for a few days. I'm not very good at this. Y'all be nice to me.


The idea here is to have just enough defense to keep the land you have. Any more is wasted expenses. Obviously having too much defense is better than not having enough, but typically, it’s very hard to win or even finish top 10 if your expenses are too high. Even commies produce jets instead of turrets to help with their expenses. (This is why jets are always cheaper than turrets)

bug03

Member

1368

Sep 23rd 2019, 22:04:01

Side note, if jets happen to be more expensive than turrets, buy turrets

Cumorah

Member

116

Sep 24th 2019, 3:03:23

Originally posted by Serpentor:
Who uses spreadsheets on primary?

You gotta be a 1A LaFer to use spreadsheets. Laaaaaame!


Hahaha agree. Although, if anyone does have a decent spreadsheet would you mind sending me a copy? ✌🏼

Cumorah

Member

116

Sep 24th 2019, 3:06:40

Originally posted by humicroav:
I was number 1 for a few days. I'm not very good at this. Y'all be nice to me.


Even this far in the set, most of the countries in the top 10 won’t be there at the end of the set.

Kahuna

Member

124

Sep 24th 2019, 3:07:14

fluff the primary server

M59Gar

Member

38

Sep 24th 2019, 3:19:27

When people say 'just enough defense to keep the land you have', I genuinely don't understand.

I've gone literally all turrets. Maxed it out. 30%+ defense bonus from bonus points, 140% weapons.

And random people can still just Planned Strike me no problem. It makes me feel as if defense is actually impossible in this game, and the only way to excel is to just be enormously larger than your opponents.

How do players 'defend themselves' in a serious manner?

bug03

Member

1368

Sep 24th 2019, 5:35:07

I use missiles.

Cumorah

Member

116

Sep 24th 2019, 11:25:06

Originally posted by M59Gar:
When people say 'just enough defense to keep the land you have', I genuinely don't understand.

I've gone literally all turrets. Maxed it out. 30%+ defense bonus from bonus points, 140% weapons.

And random people can still just Planned Strike me no problem. It makes me feel as if defense is actually impossible in this game, and the only way to excel is to just be enormously larger than your opponents.

How do players 'defend themselves' in a serious manner?


It helps having good defensive allies, but ultimately the right number of Jets in a PS will always get through, so it comes down to whether you wanna RoR or call it even and move on.

Trump

Member

95

Sep 24th 2019, 11:56:47

It would just be a "retal" and people are more likely to grab you if they think you're incapable of it.

g0nz0

Member

163

Sep 24th 2019, 15:10:18

Originally posted by M59Gar:
When people say 'just enough defense to keep the land you have', I genuinely don't understand.

I've gone literally all turrets. Maxed it out. 30%+ defense bonus from bonus points, 140% weapons.

And random people can still just Planned Strike me no problem. It makes me feel as if defense is actually impossible in this game, and the only way to excel is to just be enormously larger than your opponents.

How do players 'defend themselves' in a serious manner?


Spies and missiles. I don't buy military until it's time to grab. Most players reconsider when they see your retal could punch a few holes in their country. Military doesn't mean fluff at that point. Warfare and spy tech are best to get early. Remember when using missiles, the order should be: cruise, chems, then nukes. Cruise to weaken SDI, so always first. Nukes make opponents "stronger" in most cases by increasing spal and tech effectiveness.

You still fear being hit. 1 strike will not destroy or cripple you. You can easily rebuild, or just grab another country. You WILL be hit, in every game. That's a good reason to stock. Sitting on piles of cash or food is perfect target. It's important to maintain your cool after being grabbed. A dozen ABs or GS is not going recoup your losses and is a serious waste of turns and resources. Either retal 1:1 within 48 hours, or simply move on. I don't approve of EoSS, but for some its satisfying as a form of revenge.
Don't waste bonus points on defense. Depending on your build it is either booms or extra turns. Expenses bonus can be worth it later(-10% means a lot when you are troop heavy), building costs early. All depends on your strat.

Cumorah

Member

116

Sep 24th 2019, 23:15:20

Originally posted by Trump:
It would just be a "retal" and people are more likely to grab you if they think you're incapable of it.


True - I assume no one bothers to grab me unless I grab them first πŸ˜‰

Cumorah

Member

116

Sep 24th 2019, 23:17:34

Originally posted by g0nz0:
Originally posted by M59Gar:
When people say 'just enough defense to keep the land you have', I genuinely don't understand.

I've gone literally all turrets. Maxed it out. 30%+ defense bonus from bonus points, 140% weapons.

And random people can still just Planned Strike me no problem. It makes me feel as if defense is actually impossible in this game, and the only way to excel is to just be enormously larger than your opponents.

How do players 'defend themselves' in a serious manner?


Spies and missiles. I don't buy military until it's time to grab. Most players reconsider when they see your retal could punch a few holes in their country. Military doesn't mean fluff at that point. Warfare and spy tech are best to get early. Remember when using missiles, the order should be: cruise, chems, then nukes. Cruise to weaken SDI, so always first. Nukes make opponents "stronger" in most cases by increasing spal and tech effectiveness.

You still fear being hit. 1 strike will not destroy or cripple you. You can easily rebuild, or just grab another country. You WILL be hit, in every game. That's a good reason to stock. Sitting on piles of cash or food is perfect target. It's important to maintain your cool after being grabbed. A dozen ABs or GS is not going recoup your losses and is a serious waste of turns and resources. Either retal 1:1 within 48 hours, or simply move on. I don't approve of EoSS, but for some its satisfying as a form of revenge.
Don't waste bonus points on defense. Depending on your build it is either booms or extra turns. Expenses bonus can be worth it later(-10% means a lot when you are troop heavy), building costs early. All depends on your strat.


Order of missiles depends on the level of SDI - it’s its low I’d nuke before Chem so I am not nuking empty acres.

Cumorah

Member

116

Sep 25th 2019, 2:22:53

Originally posted by Cumorah:
Originally posted by Trump:
It would just be a "retal" and people are more likely to grab you if they think you're incapable of it.


True - I assume no one bothers to grab me unless I grab them first πŸ˜‰


It seems I spoke too soon. Another one to add to the retal list.

KoHeartsGPA

Member

20,470

Sep 25th 2019, 2:25:01

If last set was any indication, there are several new old players and they don't shy away from hitting anyone and multiple times...
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

M59Gar

Member

38

Sep 25th 2019, 5:14:23

Either retal 1:1 within 48 hours, or simply move on. I don't approve of EoSS, but for some its satisfying as a form of revenge.


1: Is within 48 hours some kind of rule?

2: What's EoSS?

KoHeartsGPA

Member

20,470

Sep 25th 2019, 5:28:42

I retal when I'm ready, I don't mind losing 250 to 400 acres when later I can retal for 1200 to 2000 acres. No time limit, retal when YOU are ready to.
Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

Cumorah

Member

116

Sep 25th 2019, 6:42:06

Originally posted by KoHeartsGPA:
I retal when I'm ready, I don't mind losing 250 to 400 acres when later I can retal for 1200 to 2000 acres. No time limit, retal when YOU are ready to.


Agree. Some countries get upset with waiting until they have a lot of land and you get up to 10x what they took - but that’s part of the game.

If they break GDI, then you grab them back again, and maybe send 50+ missiles.

g0nz0

Member

163

Sep 25th 2019, 7:04:30

Originally posted by M59Gar:
Either retal 1:1 within 48 hours, or simply move on. I don't approve of EoSS, but for some its satisfying as a form of revenge.


1: Is within 48 hours some kind of rule?

2: What's EoSS?


1) More of a guideline. If you are spending resources and turns and waiting 4-5 days, chances are you have altered your strat or are losing momentum. If you don't have the troops to hit back, and are buying or building them specific for retal, this is better spent improving your economy, or building more defense.

2) End of Set Surprise. Waiting until the last day, when people are trying for solid finish. You unleash all missiles, spy ops, AB, whatever you got. This happens to top 10's frequently.

bug03

Member

1368

Sep 25th 2019, 11:51:02

Personally, I like to wait to retal until I’m close to passing their country in land to make it hurt as much as possible.

Cumorah

Member

116

Sep 25th 2019, 21:19:07

Originally posted by bug03:
Personally, I like to wait to retal until I’m close to passing their country in land to make it hurt as much as possible.


βœŒπŸΌπŸ˜‚

Trump

Member

95

Sep 25th 2019, 22:00:44

48 hours is a pretty quick turnaround. If someone hits you back in 48 hours you really overlooked something when you hit them in the first place. Waiting for over a week or going all jets can be seen as obnoxious and can cause a RoR (retal on retal) or even a farming operation on your ass, but you can do what you want.

DeLpHiNuS

Member

523

Sep 26th 2019, 14:51:08

well, for me i would make sure that the guy will not be able to ROR me when i retal.. so my retal will take quite later in the round and likely not done within 48hrs or so.. doing a retal later also will generate more land return when we get bigger, considering targets are scarce and my own policy of hitting a person only once a round (unless provoke)

bug03

Member

1368

Sep 27th 2019, 2:51:45

Tell that guy to stop bouncing grabs on you. I miss those turrets

DeLpHiNuS

Member

523

Sep 27th 2019, 12:34:22

Originally posted by bug03:
Tell that guy to stop bouncing grabs on you. I miss those turrets


oops.. i will smack him for u later:) i smack him on the left, u smack on the right after im done haha

Marshal

Member

31,193

Sep 27th 2019, 13:29:40

don't joke about that since that'd be co-operation.
Patience: Yep, I'm with ELK and Marshal.

ELKronos: Patty is more hairy.

Galleri: Sadly pics of my boobies are on my ftp-folder.

LadyGrizz boobies is fine

NOW3P: Morwen is a much harsher mistress than boredom....