* Paradigm only accepts (and performs) retals in a 48 hour retal window.
* Paradigm retals 1:1 and only accepts 1:1 retals for cross country retals (when the retaller is not the country for whom the retals are being made).
* Paradigm escalates retals on an entire tag basis in a 48 hour window. The first three hits on Paradigm by any countries in another given tag to any countries in Paradigm will be retalled 1:1. The fourth, fifth and sixth hits from the same given tag against Paradigm will be retalled 2:1 each. The seventh, eighth and ninth hits are retalled 4:1 each. Escalation continues with this pattern of doubling for every three additional hits.
* Paradigm retals retal on retals (RoRs) double normal grabs based on how it fits into the escalation scheme described above.
* Paradigm retals land:land (L:L) for country:country (when the retaller is the country for whom the retals are being made) or standard escalation, whichever yields higher results for them. Paradigm only accepts L:L retals for country:country retals (not factoring in ghost acres). L:L retals stop once 90% of the land has been recovered if buildings make up 10% of the land lost.
* If an alliance puts a country of it's own into diminishing returns that has hit Paradigm within 48 hours and Paradigm has not yet retalled they will take the land from someone else in that alliance.
* Paradigm will only accept responsibility for detaggers for 48 hours from detagging. They only hold other tags accountable for detaggers for 48 hours from detagging.
* In Paradigm policy there is no such thing as a topfeed. Their basis is that the definition of a topfeed is irrelevant for L:L retals and if the country itself isn't getting the land back then the returns aren't important as the person who suffers does not receive the reparations.
* Paradigm does not have a set standard to define when to maim, farm or kill a country. For example after five attacks from a country and they might think about killing it but it depends on the nature of the hits and what they feel the country's intentions were. Paradigm states that they do not need legalese authority to kill something if it is giving them grief.
* Paradigm accepts any 1 attack for any 1 attack and reserves the right to retal under the same principle. If a Paradigm country grab you, you can retal with an equal number of attacks of your choosing such as but not limited to ABs, Cruise missiles, CDs as long as the number of hits match up. This can also be applied in conjunction with the escalating hit policy.
* Paradigm only accepts land grabs for L:L retals.
* Paradigm does not recognize the in-game action of declaring war as affecting the number of retals owed. Their reasoning is that declaring war only hurts the country who did it through increased expenses. It is equivalent to weapons tech that you only buy for a short period of time.
* Anything Paradigm signs in a pact supersedes these policies.

Also available for viewing here
http://wiki.earthempires.com/index.php/Paradigm

I think I like PDMs retal policy the best!

Probably because it is the fairest for the individual while still incorporating the alliance and encouraging grabbing through skill.

It is amazing what you can do when you don't stand firm in stupid antiquated policies.

How can you retal with spy ops? They clearly "only hurt the country who did it".

I am really unsure what you mean.

If I grab you then you're welcome to forgo a landgrab and bioterrorism me once. That is a fine way to get back at me if that is the attack you want to use.

Conversely if you bioterrorism me (which doesn't hurt the country who did it, generally speaking) then I will retal with one attack of any type.

But spy ops cannot be retalled.

Situation A: My harmful spy op is successful. You have no idea which country did it to you, so you can't retal it.

Situation B: My harmful spy op is not successful. I lose spies. Your country gains spy DR. This benefits your country and harms mine. Thus, it is not retallable.

Situation C: a country succeeds and fails on some spy ops in a short period of time. Circumstantially the evidence suggests that the country that failed is the one who did the harmful ops and will get retalled. Likewise any demoralizes before a landgrab would circumstantially suggest that the attacker performed the spy attacks and would be retalled for the successful spy ops as well.

Is that supposed to be a rebuttal? It doesn't address the point at all.

Multiple countries can, and often do, the same type of spy op against one country. It's also trivial to do a single spy op and then move on.

Why would an attacker do demoralizes? The country with the best spal would do the demoralizes. The country in the best position to attack would do the attack. Do your breakers also do demos in your war chats?

I gotta agree with Slag on that technicality

If I accidentally bounce a CD on a PDM country while attempting to CD someone else, I've made 1 accidental CD. If someone else successfully CD'ed the PDM country 10 times 10 minutes before my accidental failed op, would you assume I'm the one doing the successful ops? :p

That's another situation where you get a false positive.

10 minutes apart? probably not. I'd say sub 5 minutes.
Unless a larger pattern emerges, then I'd start to wonder. :)

Honestly I don't care if someone else in the alliance is doing the spy ops. When you work as a team sometimes one person takes the fall for another...

I guess I just don't see what point you're trying to make? Would you like me to just say any failed harmful spy op gets a full retal? I could make that an Evo exclusive policy if you'd prefer... I am not even sure what your gripe is?

Get in touch with FAs?

Does a failed spy op count as a retal? Is it retallable? You seem to be waffling around here.

ok, well what happens when my FA's say "well, he says he made one accidental failed CD and that was the only op he made. So you can't take any retals on Pang."

I agree wholeheartedly with Slag though -- it's unfortunate, but you can't really retal successful harmful ops with any kind of blanket policy in the same way LG's are treated :p Your last post, Detmer, kind of exemplifies that

A failed military/spy/market op does not count as a retal and is not retallable. I was saying a failed harmful op is not retallable. Likewise I would say it does not count as a retal. I am saying a failed harmful op with "appropriate" temporal coincidence can count as an indicator of the originator of a successful harmful op.

I am not sure what point you're trying to make? Someone should just let harmful ops slide? As for your FA, I hope he can point to the similar country number target who has recently had a large decrease in troops =P I am really unsure what you're going for here? What is your eloquent policy on harmful ops?

So when you say "retal with a CD", you actually mean doing harmful ops until one of them succeeds?

That is not what I meant initially but you have shown me that such an action is fair since any failed attempts are just beneficial to the country being retalled.

So if the country succeeds on his first op, what's to stop him from denying that it was him and doing a traditional retal later? Or doing more harmful spy ops later?

What if the country takes responsibility but the harmful spy op doesn't actually do damage? Do they get another retal?

What if the country's missile DHes, but the defender doesn't lose SDI. Do they get another retal?

What if a normal attack bounces, but the defender doesn't lose any military?

I think you guys are getting to wrapped up in spy ops... How often are we doing harmful spy ops while not at war?

I think the retal policy is very fair, IMO.

i dont see the issue with DSO's really. if you do one by accident PM the country that it was an accident and talk to a PDM FA to let them know, im sure they will be reasonable about it (ASSuming).

theres no reason at all to do DSO's unless you are at war or killing that country. ive noticed in other servers people like to do things like defuse missles after a landgrab or demo before it. do that here and i will drop the next 6 i produce on you. so im sure PDM is basically thinking along those lines to prevent stuff like that.

Confirmed. Like if someone did one random harmful spy op or failed one random op.. honestly I bet we would just let it slide if it didn't really do a whole lot...

Req and Pain get it!

DSO?

Detrimental Spy Op?

Before I respond to any more of these hypothetical situations, could you tell me how Evo would handle harmful spy ops?

If there are no losses then there is no harm. I will assume that any DH, missile or otherwise, that there were military losses. I know there is non-zero failure chance with zero SDI and that you can have so little military that you suffer no losses, but those are unrealistic end members to encounter.

destructive spy op.

HSO/DSO whats the diff. :p

If you aren't going to use them then why did you add a pact clause for their use? Give me a break.

I'm just a commentator. If you'd like to know EVO's retal policy, I suggest contacting a EVO FA.

Slag your comments are helpful because I'm sure it will come up with such a policy, however you're also trying to find loop holes and make Detmers policy lose credibility. Detmer has been clear about one thing: He is reasonable. If a weird situation comes up it will be an FA matter that will get worked out in a reasonable fashion.

The bottom line is if you do destructive attacks whether or not they are SS, PS, GS, BR, AB... all the way to spy ops; expect there to be consequences for your actions. While I firmly believe the only time anyone should be doing a harmful spy op against someone else would be in times of war I suppose someone could do one willy-nilley.

Slagpit: Do you or your alliance plan on doing a bunch of harmful spy ops> :p

EDIT: I don't speak for PDM this is just my opinion.

Because in principle if someone wants to use a spy op for a retal I am down with it and I am being clear with that.

Due the nature of spy ops only being traceable if they fail I have started that we will use circumstantial evidence to allot retals for them, although I never directly addressed retalling spy ops in the policy.

As for if a failed harmful op counts as a retal, I said no since it helps a country by putting it in DR.

If you think that missile retals are reasonable, promote a skilled environment, or encourage landgrabbing, I really don't know what to say to you.

If PDM's retal policy allows me to steal bushels and oil from PDM countries without any kind of reprisal, why shouldn't I?

when I get a bigger headache reading a retal policy then a new building code, something is wrong with the system.

I do think they are reasonable. I think that they are a part of the game that allows a country to defend itself from attackers. PDM doesn't need missiles to retal however others might. If we were to we'd certainly want them at our disposal. We have no policy against the people who attack us having GDI. Since a failed missile is harmful (as addressed earlier) it would still count as a retal.

If you get caught stealing bushels or oil from PDM you will be retalled. "Paradigm accepts any 1 attack for any 1 attack and reserves the right to retal under the same principle."
Each op will probably be retalled with a PS so it is unlikely that the returns of any one spy op would be justifiable for the spying country's best interest. If it never gets caught then cool for it -we can't enforce something we don't catch anyways. That being said if a country were to try one raid food op on each country in PDM, if it failed on any of them that circumstantial evidence would be enough for us to retal/kill. I sure hope no country in PDM would have so much stock on hand that a landgrab would not be more valuable than the stock lost.

If you read it at the wiki page the main points are bolded. HTH

Any that you'd happen to catch would be "retals", so I'd have a legitimate purpose for it and you could infer nothing from the time stamps of ops on different PDM countries. I'm sure that there are plenty of people with a motive to attack PDM: you haven't really tried to make friends lately.

Why don't you just admit the truth: PDM wants an environment where there aren't any rules?

How could you claim they were retals? Are you planning to falsify ops against you or something? If you get attacked and retal with an op that is fine. Otherwise it is not.

PDM does not want complete anarchy - but highly lawless - yes please.

Let me amend my statement: you want to be protected by traditional rules long enough for your countries to get enough stock to mess with other people.

No, that is not true. We mostly just want to grab a whole bunch. We are tired of all-explore and getting a 45 acre grab on an untag on a good day.

I decide that PDM has signed a pact with me!