Rare PCI death - Earth Empires Forum

mdevol

Member
3223

Dec 9th 2019, 2:42:24

did he die trying to CD me without cash?

Surely what a man does when he is caught off his guard is the best evidence as to what sort of man he is. - C.S. Lewis

Sov

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2476

Dec 9th 2019, 2:44:19

He had 300m cash on hand. It was PCI dropped to zero. Downside of staying low pop for so long.

KoHeartsGPA

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29,545

Dec 9th 2019, 2:47:16

Dang

Mess with me you better kill me, or I'll just take your pride & joy and jack it up
(•_•)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VRMGTwU4I
-=TSO~DKnights~ICD~XI~LaF=-

S.F. Giants 2010, 2012, 2014 World Series Champions, fluff YEAH!

AzNiZe

Member
358

Dec 9th 2019, 2:47:53

Learn something new everyday

mdevol

Member
3223

Dec 9th 2019, 2:48:53

ahh....fair enough.

well. i did tell him he was going to die when i began lemming him a few days ago. and i did get the last hits on him lol.

i win.

Surely what a man does when he is caught off his guard is the best evidence as to what sort of man he is. - C.S. Lewis

Sov

Member
2476

Dec 9th 2019, 2:49:05

Died with 278 pop left and $299m cash on hand.

allbymyself87

Member
805

Dec 9th 2019, 2:55:18

We all thought that Azn self deleted. lol.

AzNiZe

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358

Dec 9th 2019, 3:01:08

My restart would have nothing if I self deleted 😊

Suicidal

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2239

Dec 9th 2019, 3:41:05

u suicided on a Sunday

ninong

Member
1575

Dec 9th 2019, 3:58:00

accidental suicide

ninong, formerly Johnny Demonic
IX

galleri

Game Moderator
Primary, Express, Tourney, & FFA
13,988

Dec 9th 2019, 4:04:04

damn Azn!

https://gyazo.com/...b3bb28dddf908cdbcfd162513

Kahuna: Ya you just wrote the fkn equation, not helping me at all. Lol n I hated algebra.

brujodale

Member
619

Dec 9th 2019, 4:05:56

you did an awesome job pho head wtg

daspheebsie

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560

Dec 9th 2019, 4:28:50

Jeebus AZN nicely done though on the walling.

Current SoLer
Retired LaF
One time at band camp Evo

Sov

Member
2476

Dec 9th 2019, 8:08:20

It’s a shame he died. He could have walled for quite a while longer.

TaSk1

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Dec 9th 2019, 11:15:34

Rip

Witness the fitness!
IXMVP.

Drow

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1607

Dec 9th 2019, 13:02:49

well defended man, great job!!

Retired Earth type.

Requiem

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EE Patron
9092

Dec 9th 2019, 17:53:52

Damn that doesn’t happen often good job Azn!

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5077

Dec 9th 2019, 17:56:03

What did he do different? I was walling in team a few sets back and I was sitting happily at 100-1000 pop for surely 200 turns.

I remember my PCI was really low like ~0.10 or something but I remember it didnt go down more. Maybe has to do with pop/acre or something?

PCI deaths used to be not that uncommon but from what I understand something was changed that made it almost impossible, apparently not completely impossible.

AzNiZe

Member
358

Dec 9th 2019, 18:23:32

I've walled in team over 2k hits with no PCI detah doing the exact same thing. Maybe alliance have diff rules?

https://imgur.com/tvtZM4o

DerrickICN

Member

EE Patron
6339

Dec 9th 2019, 19:41:33

0% tax rate and switching off tyranny would have helped but i still dont understand how this happened based on the pci formula provided. His tax rate, nw/land, bus tech and ent zones/acre were unchanged from when he's at 0.2 pci. It makes no sense.

It would be nice to have an accurate formula so we can at least understand wtf killed us.

Requiem

Member

EE Patron
9092

Dec 9th 2019, 19:48:41

Is this up to date?

22.5 * (1 - Taxrate) * (1 + ((Networth/Land)/90000)) * (1 + (2 * (Ent/Land))) * BusTech * GvtPCIBonus

DerrickICN

Member

EE Patron
6339

Dec 9th 2019, 20:12:47

I mean clearly not. None of those factors would have changed during a turn wall. Plug in a few numbers. Its literally impossible to reach 0 at that formula.

We have no idea what killed him.

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5077

Dec 9th 2019, 20:23:14

Yeah but that is just the equilibrium PCI. It cant go to 0.

The PCI change formula is a little more intricate and used to commonly be written as 4 equations (since it would get messy and hard to understand to write it as one). Im not sure that one is current tho but PCI change works the same way in normal conditions as it used to when I know that formula was in effect.

Azn did you by any chance have bioterrors on you during your very last turns?

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5077

Dec 9th 2019, 20:26:11

Originally posted by Requiem:

Is this up to date?

22.5 * (1 - Taxrate) * (1 + ((Networth/Land)/90000)) * (1 + (2 * (Ent/Land))) * BusTech * GvtPCIBonus

Its actually been changed to ((Networth/Land)/18000)) but the rest is correct. I dont know when that change was made, but the formula u provided was in effect when I played E2025, and I came back to ((Networth/Land)/18000)) in 2017.

Either way as has been stated by Derrick you can't get 0 or negative numbers from this formula without plugging in negative NW or Ent or bus tech at negative or 0, which is not possible without bugs.

DerrickICN

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EE Patron
6339

Dec 9th 2019, 20:33:55

22.5×(1−0.35)×(1+((12,595,373÷1,374)÷18,000))×(1+(2×(0÷1,374)))×1.8×0.8=31.79

22.5×(1−0.35)×(1+((12,595,373÷1,374)÷90,000))×(1+(2×(0÷1,374)))×1.8×0.8=23.21

Thats with the op he posted and both the provided formula and the one gerdy said it is. Neither = anywhere near 0.

Anyone have an actual explanation here? We're just looking for a way to avoid it but need to know the actual math.

Edited By: DerrickICN on Dec 9th 2019, 20:35:58
See Original Post

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5077

Dec 9th 2019, 20:52:38

Well that was never the reason for PCI death. The PCI growth formula gives negative PCI changes even when the equilibrium PCI is way higher than current PCI. Low pop triggers that but I have no idea how low the pop needs to be, how it rounds or how fast its supposed to drop.

All I know is that PCI deaths used to be more common than they are now and I was under the impression that some change had been implemented to stop PCI deaths in the last couple of years.

DerrickICN

Member

EE Patron
6339

Dec 9th 2019, 20:56:06

The pci death change was july 10th 2010:

PCI DEATH CHANGE:

PCI death has been adjusted so its slightly harder to achieve. Rather than PCI < 0.01 it is now round(PCI,2) < 0.0

DerrickICN

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EE Patron
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Dec 9th 2019, 20:57:57

Which of course still gives absolutely no fluffin real explanation of why azn died. Other than to note that tyranny and .35 tax rate hurt him. Rep and 0% might have saved him, but without a real explanation of how this works, its honestly impossible to know or plan for.

As we speak another waller is on 20 cent pci and falling. Literally none of us can figure out what to do. Goes down when hes hit, goes down when he takes turns and gains pop. Like.....can we help him somehow? Does anyone know how this fluff actually works?

Edited By: DerrickICN on Dec 9th 2019, 21:00:31
See Original Post

Red X

Game Moderator
Primary, Express & Team
4935

Dec 9th 2019, 21:01:19

Originally posted by DerrickICN:

Did you already try the 0 tax?

My attitude is that of a Hulk smash
Mixed with Tony Montana snortin' bags of his coke stash
http://nbkffa.ghqnet.com

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5077

Dec 9th 2019, 21:02:52

No its like I said. The PCI growth formula gives negative numbers when you have low pop, regardless of the equilibrium.

The PCI growth formula is very complicated compared to the equilibrium PCI formula that we have posted in this thread.

DerrickICN

Member

EE Patron
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Dec 9th 2019, 21:03:00

Yep. It actually didnt change pci but kept it from falling as fast.

Does anyone have the pci growth formula so we can figure out what exactly killed him and avoid it in the future? And how it is factored against the equilibrium?

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5077

Dec 9th 2019, 21:17:04

I dont think anyone have the current one for EE and it was from what I understand the very last formula to be completely reverse engineered from e2025 as it was the most compex one in the game.
It was reverse engineered in order to replicate the game so Im sure its very similar and I have it(the old one) somewhere on my toasters hard drive. It is not posted on LaF formula collection.

Red X

Game Moderator
Primary, Express & Team
4935

Dec 9th 2019, 21:17:28

Originally posted by DerrickICN:

What about FA cash so they can buy tech?

My attitude is that of a Hulk smash
Mixed with Tony Montana snortin' bags of his coke stash
http://nbkffa.ghqnet.com

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5077

Dec 9th 2019, 21:28:29

It wont help.

Boltar

Member
4056

Dec 9th 2019, 21:33:45

Originally posted by Red X:

Originally posted by DerrickICN:

What about FA cash so they can buy tech?

He had 300mil cash when he died

Requiem

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EE Patron
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Dec 9th 2019, 21:40:51

If the formula shouldn’t allow 0 then maybe it was some kind of rounding error on the programming side is my guess.

Maybe pang and or Qz needs to do a unit test on that formula in game.

AzNiZe

Member
358

Dec 9th 2019, 21:50:37

Originally posted by Gerdler:

\
Azn did you by any chance have bioterrors on you during your very last turns?

negative

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5077

Dec 9th 2019, 22:16:53

Originally posted by Requiem:

If the formula shouldn’t allow 0 then maybe it was some kind of rounding error on the programming side is my guess.

Maybe pang and or Qz needs to do a unit test on that formula in game.

Dude read what I wrote... It has nothing to do with the PCI formula.

Original Skywise L

Member
594

Dec 9th 2019, 23:15:33

This is the means in which AR decided to kill his country in PS rather than self delete... it took awhile while he played market shenanigans

Skywise

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5077

Dec 9th 2019, 23:17:13

But he did it with food and cash shortages tho, right? Azn had neither.

Requiem

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Dec 9th 2019, 23:20:49

Originally posted by Gerdler:

Originally posted by Requiem:

If the formula shouldn’t allow 0 then maybe it was some kind of rounding error on the programming side is my guess.

Maybe pang and or Qz needs to do a unit test on that formula in game.

Dude read what I wrote... It has nothing to do with the PCI formula.

I'm not reading all of that crap. Something made PCI = 0 so I posted a suggestion. We lack the info that is really needed to say. Let's keep guessing :p

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5077

Dec 9th 2019, 23:27:29

Im not guessing, if you suggest Im guessing you are ignoring what I said. Im saying that the PCI change formula has always been able to produce negative change even when equilibrium PCI is above the current PCI. It has always been that way, since like 1999 at least. Its not a bug, its a feature that they have reverse engineered from E2025 and intentionally implemented here.

Edited By: Gerdler on Dec 9th 2019, 23:30:39

Requiem

Member

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Dec 9th 2019, 23:35:04

If you're not guessing then why did he die?

This really isn't a confrontational subject no need to be fluffty ;)

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5077

Dec 9th 2019, 23:51:57

He died because the PCI growth formula gives negative PCI changes when you are low pop. This negative PCI change happens to every country that ever took turns while walling at low pop.

Requiem

Member

EE Patron
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Dec 9th 2019, 23:57:45

Hmm thats interesting wonder why more ppl dont die due to it. Not running enough turns low pop and dying due to 0 pop before this happens?

Gerdler

Forum Moderator
5077

Dec 10th 2019, 0:32:38

Well as I said the mechanism is well known.

But without knowing how Azn walled I can't say if the actual numbers are the same as before. I have walled with low pop for a long time as well without this happening and while I did sometimes pay attention to my PCI going very low I cant say I did anything to keep it from going to 0, but my focus was 100.0% on keeping my population above 0 and it was enough for keeping PCI above 0 all those times as well. Don't know why that was not the case for Azn.

AzNiZe

Member
358

Dec 10th 2019, 1:25:32

I wall the same way you do. Refresh menu, cash 3 turns when civ hit 200-300, repeat.

Here is my last op before detah. Pci was at 0.03

https://i.imgur.com/FGEqKaJ.jpg

ironxxx

Member

EE Patron
1108

Dec 10th 2019, 2:10:38

Clearly no one knows exactly what the fluff happened

Were changes made during this set? Is this an unintended consequence of other code modification?

Everything is a conspiracy especially negative growth formulas. It was a bullfluff death. End of story.

Kind of funny though