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Wulf Game profile

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80

Mar 6th 2012, 15:00:46

Land trading is BS and I've lost all respect for anyone doing it, particularly PDM.

Detmer Game profile

Member
4239

Mar 6th 2012, 15:09:09

Originally posted by Wulf:
Land trading is BS and I've lost all respect for anyone doing it, particularly PDM.


Good reasoning.

Wulf Game profile

Member
80

Mar 6th 2012, 15:21:52

It takes 0 skill and now you're DR'ing yourselves...Props for a tough finish!

Reckless Game profile

Member
1190

Mar 6th 2012, 15:25:32

There is nothing in this game that takes skill.

Unless your SoF telling yourselves you arent lap dogs. Thats skill.

Chaoswind Game profile

Member
1054

Mar 6th 2012, 15:31:55

Lots of stupid rhetoric


A huge amount of countries can hit PDM fattest countries, and those that can't just need to ask their leaders to negotiate a grabbing pact that lets them bypass the normal terms of their alliance.

Is THAT EASY

Rage country #4 wants to hit a fat country in PDM, his FA contacts PDM and that country is added to the list of countries that can bypass the long standing pacts Rage has with PDM, that country hits PDM and gets huge acreage returns, as PDM doesn't define topfeeds because there is no reason to address them with C:C L:L clauses, the country that hit PDM for 5000 raw acres gets retaled until +4000 acres are taken back, and both sides get the added bonuses of ghost acres.

The only thing that would harm the relationship of Rage/PDM is if said Rage country bought a fluffton of defense to try to avoid the retal, an activity that often leads to conflict regardless of how it happened; so yeah server be a bunch of babies.

At first I was against Landtrading in FFA and I took it upon myself to hit them with my fluffty countries and after keeping the exchanges civil by not buying up to avoid the retals it wasn't long before my countries were as great as theirs, you people need a chill pill.

also PDM has the fairest and more lax Retal Policy of the server, people seem to always forget that when they have their outcries fits, PDM doesn't believe in Topfeeds, we don't define them as X, they simply don't exist, there are 3 Classes of Hits:

1. War related hits.
2. Land grabs.
3. Douche hits.


War releted hits: GS, BR, AB, Missiles, all hits targeted to destroy or cripple the defending country.

Land Grabs: SS, PS in with a country annexes a piece of land in hopes he will be capable of keeping a nice % of that land after the retal.

Douche hits: Putting yourself in DR to avoid Retals, Land Grabbing and jumping defense to avoid the retal, hitting countries much smaller than you and then crippling them so they don't have a fair shot to retal.

Edited By: Chaoswind on Mar 6th 2012, 15:42:33
See Original Post
Elysium Lord of fluff
PDM Lord of fluff
Flamey = Fatty
Crazymatt is Fatty 2

Chaoswind Game profile

Member
1054

Mar 6th 2012, 15:33:53

Originally posted by Wulf:
It takes 0 skill and now you're DR'ing yourselves...Props for a tough finish!


lol the DRing has nothing to do with Netting, Rival has been doing it for weeks, there is one country I have been trying to nail to my wall, and is always 7 hits into DR, so how does it feel?


anyways you guys started the DRing thing this set so you have no moral grounds to throw the first stone.


Edited By: Chaoswind on Mar 6th 2012, 15:47:37
See Original Post
Elysium Lord of fluff
PDM Lord of fluff
Flamey = Fatty
Crazymatt is Fatty 2

Sir Balin Game profile

Member
652

Mar 6th 2012, 15:39:18

Originally posted by Wulf:
Land trading is BS and I've lost all respect for anyone doing it, particularly PDM.


Thanks for the thoughtful reply?

Detmer Game profile

Member
4239

Mar 6th 2012, 15:39:38

Originally posted by Wulf:
It takes 0 skill and now you're DR'ing yourselves...Props for a tough finish!


Bottom feeding and all-explore strategies are wrought with skill! How could I have never seen that before? The problem is you can't look at anything outside of the context of decade old social structures that nearly drove this game out of existence. Did you even read the 200 posts preceding yours or did you just come in here to spout an uninformed opinion?

Requiem Game profile

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9056

Mar 6th 2012, 15:42:38

Let's hit someone 1/12 our NW that has no opportunity to even think about a retal. Now that takes skill...

Wulf Game profile

Member
80

Mar 6th 2012, 15:54:37

The problem is you numbnuts have too much time to post on AT now!

BattleKJ Game profile

Member
1200

Mar 6th 2012, 16:07:23

Ghost acre returns should be nerfed just because of RD and PDM. When a fluff alliance is 10k acres ahead of a very good netgaining alliance in average land, theres something wrong. Very wrong.

Requiem Game profile

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Mar 6th 2012, 16:08:37

Are you saying RD and PDM are "fluff" alliances?

archaic Game profile

Member
7011

Mar 6th 2012, 16:09:16

Originally posted by Wulf:
It takes 0 skill and now you're DR'ing yourselves...Props for a tough finish!


Dude, if you think the DR has anything to do with netgaining then you are a fool. Enjoy the koolaid, I like mine with Stoly and a twist of lime - but Ivan probably makes you drink yours straight.

Cheating Mod Hall of Shame: Dark Morbid, Turtle Crawler, Sov

Chaoswind Game profile

Member
1054

Mar 6th 2012, 16:12:47

He means RD

and clearly RD got Avg Net crown last set without land trading, so they aren't fluff, maybe not as good as Evo or LaF, but clearly their members have earned the right to be called the 3 best netting alliance pound for pound.

so KJ baseless insults just prove you are jelly
Elysium Lord of fluff
PDM Lord of fluff
Flamey = Fatty
Crazymatt is Fatty 2

archaic Game profile

Member
7011

Mar 6th 2012, 16:12:48

KJ, your credibility level on this server is pretty low right now. Besides, I have not seen that many RD/PDM countries in the top-10 lately, so what exactly are you basing your irrational fear on? Read Balin's post above, you might learn something.

How many PDM/RD land traders have you grabbed this set? If you have not hit any, then I'm not sure you can complain.
Cheating Mod Hall of Shame: Dark Morbid, Turtle Crawler, Sov

Chaoswind Game profile

Member
1054

Mar 6th 2012, 16:18:15

I wonder why everyone insults RD, they play legit and get great finishes and people point at one of their inactives that let them farm him (and was dropped 2 weeks before set end) a grant total of 6000 acres, and we had KSF doing pretty fluffty stuff last set with one of their members feeding Oden alone more than 15K acres, and no one says a word about it.


Honestly if Buffalo Soldier (#146) Didn't deserve his 5 place because he got feed 3k acres, then sure as hell Oden (#348) didn't deserve to be in the top 10 if at all.

Community if you will troll people, troll them equally stop playing favorites.

Edited By: Chaoswind on Mar 6th 2012, 16:23:34
See Original Post
Elysium Lord of fluff
PDM Lord of fluff
Flamey = Fatty
Crazymatt is Fatty 2

CeyLonTEa Game profile

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248

Mar 6th 2012, 16:28:43

+1 requiem

Ivan Game profile

Member
2362

Mar 6th 2012, 16:32:15


See Balin/PDM most alliances including SoF arent against your grabbing lists or stuff we are against the simple back and forth hitting that goes on between 2 countries 40 times to get fat

The rest of you seem to comment on grabbing lists and grabbing/retaling other countries and thats a completely different thing which afaik no one has an issue with, at least SoF doesnt

Balin posted up a list of roughly 5 alliance thats hes landtraded with while infact from the news ive looked at the only actual landtrading going on is between PDM/RD and I dont see why the other tags would when they have signed pacts with 1:1 retals for back and fourth hitting countries just like we offered PDM earlier this set

fluffF!

Detmer Game profile

Member
4239

Mar 6th 2012, 16:38:06

Originally posted by Ivan:

See Balin/PDM most alliances including SoF arent against your grabbing lists or stuff we are against the simple back and forth hitting that goes on between 2 countries 40 times to get fat

The rest of you seem to comment on grabbing lists and grabbing/retaling other countries and thats a completely different thing which afaik no one has an issue with, at least SoF doesnt

Balin posted up a list of roughly 5 alliance thats hes landtraded with while infact from the news ive looked at the only actual landtrading going on is between PDM/RD and I dont see why the other tags would when they have signed pacts with 1:1 retals for back and fourth hitting countries just like we offered PDM earlier this set

fluffF!


Perhaps it is unclear what you have been whining about then if you don't have a problem with what we are doing. Perhaps you could use precise language to describe your issues, rather than ranting against "land trading".

The only pact you offered PDM was so you could regulate our behavior. There is no way in hell we will answer to anyone besides ourselves and especially not you.

Requiem Game profile

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Mar 6th 2012, 16:41:57

Ivan: why do you care either way you suck at net gaining not to mention you never net a full set.

Chaoswind Game profile

Member
1054

Mar 6th 2012, 16:46:33

what can I say?

Honestly I do agree that there are a couple of countries that have been hitting each other for the past while, but I also think this is the result of no one else in the open list of the other clans hitting them, they aren't in a bubble, as far as I know each member can choose to be closed to ONE of the clans that we have grabbing pacts with.

Myself as an example:

I choose to close Evo, I don't want to hit them, and don't want them to hit me, is no secret that I dislike slagpit (omg don't come here), and getting farmed by them on my first set doesn't help me to like them, if they grabbed me and jumped defense to try to escape my retal, I would suicide on them with my Tyrany/techer and do as much damage as possible, that is why I choose to close that alliance and be protected by our 200% L:L clause if they dare to hit me; however I am fair game for everyone else and everyone else if fair game to me (besides Neo that ran away when I asked to be in their list as that is possible as well).

So yeah, maybe they are exchanging hits heavily with RD, but nothing is stopping Monsters/Neofed/Sanct/Evo from hitting them, as you can only close one of the other clans from hitting you not all of them.
Elysium Lord of fluff
PDM Lord of fluff
Flamey = Fatty
Crazymatt is Fatty 2

Sov Game profile

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2462

Mar 6th 2012, 16:47:47

Tone down the insults and get to the points.

Ivan Game profile

Member
2362

Mar 6th 2012, 16:48:00


Eh detmer its actually you and your members who are miss understanding what people actually call landtrading, or everyone else in the server is wrong and your right which wouldnt suprise me with your dagga logic

Like we give a fluff about who you answer to or dont

as for requim id love to see how you came to the conclusion that I cant netgain sure its been awhile now but i dont think id have any problems competing for a t10 spot if i wanted to at least it didnt use to be all that hard :)

Chaoswind Game profile

Member
1054

Mar 6th 2012, 16:49:31

^^^^^ Read my post dang it
Elysium Lord of fluff
PDM Lord of fluff
Flamey = Fatty
Crazymatt is Fatty 2

Ivan Game profile

Member
2362

Mar 6th 2012, 16:52:13


I did read your post and dont really have much to comment on it if you want to do a grab here or there on 5 different tags im not going to be one to call that silly, the silliness comes with hitting the same guy over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over etc

Ivan Game profile

Member
2362

Mar 6th 2012, 16:53:22


Honestly i dont know why PDM/RD doesnt just go back to intag landtrading since its basically what yer doing anyway

Detmer Game profile

Member
4239

Mar 6th 2012, 16:54:00

Originally posted by Ivan:

Eh detmer its actually you and your members who are miss understanding what people actually call landtrading, or everyone else in the server is wrong and your right which wouldnt suprise me with your dagga logic

Like we give a fluff about who you answer to or dont

as for requim id love to see how you came to the conclusion that I cant netgain sure its been awhile now but i dont think id have any problems competing for a t10 spot if i wanted to at least it didnt use to be all that hard :)


No one has provided a definition of landtrading. There is this vague sense of people hitting too fast. No on has provided a clear definition. You probably don't even have a clear understanding of what you think.

Ivan Game profile

Member
2362

Mar 6th 2012, 16:56:07


Dude 1 person from tag A hitting someone from tag B has been called landgrab for the past 15 years now i dont see why it would change term just like that

If you want I can explain to you what CS IC and all the other common abbreviations means as well to you

Chaoswind Game profile

Member
1054

Mar 6th 2012, 16:57:51

and again I am telling you to READ

If you where in RD and you had to hit a country that would give you 5000 acres and 3000 ghost and a country that would give you 1000 acres and 600 ghost, with one would you hit?

The problem is that Everyone else "Monsters/Sanct/Neo/Evo" seem to think that they will get raped a new one for "Topfeeding" one of PDM fat countries when in truth we don't believe such a thing exist.

If one of them decided to hit that super fat country in PDM who would be pissed? they are part of the list, so sure as hell they can, as long as they don't jump their break to silly amounts no one will complain, the problem is that they are scared of being called out for their "topfeed" when such a thing won't happen.
Elysium Lord of fluff
PDM Lord of fluff
Flamey = Fatty
Crazymatt is Fatty 2

Ivan Game profile

Member
2362

Mar 6th 2012, 16:59:42


No one gives a fluff if you hit an RD tagged country chaoswind the problem is that you hit the same country every day, sometimes several times a day

de1i Game profile

Member
1639

Mar 6th 2012, 17:00:28

What is IC?

Ice cream
Intercourse
Inner-child
Iron Curtain
Icecrown Citadel

Detmer Game profile

Member
4239

Mar 6th 2012, 17:00:38

Originally posted by Ivan:

Dude 1 person from tag A hitting someone from tag B has been called landgrab for the past 15 years now i dont see why it would change term just like that

If you want I can explain to you what CS IC and all the other common abbreviations means as well to you


Ok, so all that is happening is normal landgrabbing like has happened for 15 years now and you are suddenly taking offense now for no reason? Got it.

Ivan Game profile

Member
2362

Mar 6th 2012, 17:01:16


Sad thing is that yer not even playing dumb detmer you just are that ignorant :)

Chaoswind Game profile

Member
1054

Mar 6th 2012, 17:06:46

OMG

ok step by step

You are Country #3 in PDM (36k acres) targets are:

RD country #2 35K acres
EVo Country #4 25k Acres
Neo Country #1 19K acres

quick question with one would you hit?
.
.
.
.
.

YEAH RD
they do their Retal and now you are

PDM Country #3 39K acres

Next day the target list looks like this


RD country #2 41K acres
EVo Country #4 27k Acres
Neo Country #1 21K acres


who are you going to hit?

.
.
.
.
.
.

yeah RD!!!

but lets say you are #1

Neo Country #1 21K acres

and your targets are:

PDM Country #3 39K acres
RD country #2 41K acres
EVo Country #4 27k Acres


WHY THE fluff ARE YOU HITTING THE EXPLORE BOTTOM? WHY BE SCARED? THERE IS A COUNTRY WITH 41K ACRES THAT YOU CAN HIT, STOP BEING A fluff!!!

The grabbing pacts says you can take the fluffING INITIATIVE AND HIT IT SO fluffING HIT IT!!!

Easy enough for all of you
Elysium Lord of fluff
PDM Lord of fluff
Flamey = Fatty
Crazymatt is Fatty 2

Sir Balin Game profile

Member
652

Mar 6th 2012, 17:13:18

Originally posted by Sov:
Tone down the insults and get to the points.


Exhibit A

Originally posted by Sir Balin:
Flamey, I disagree that so-called "landtrading" violates some code of conduct on the server. Although this vocabulary we've developed over years of playing and political posturing is more or less empirically arbitrary (concepts like a topfeed, for example), I do agree that there are certain entrenched styles of play that "landtrading" challenges.

That is, as a server we've developed methods of play for which we've sought to maximize potential, and "landtrading" adds several variables which challenge the standards for achieving a top networth. For example, you have the "landtraders" themselves, who acquire large amounts of land. (This is not so different from getting fat from farming untaggeds... it takes a similar number of turns, and is more risky than bottomfeeding.) You also have the high-defense countries that will inevitably steal that land mid-set. This challenges the idea that land should either be acquired by farming untaggeds/camping DRs (an old tradition that I'm philosophically opposed to), or through marginal gains in uncoordinated, aggressive grab exchanges.

If you consider the latter, which you gave examples of, what are the exact differences between this type of grabbing and the type of grabbing that takes place between "landtraders"? It seems the main difference is intention - "landtraders" intend for both parties to profit, bottomfeeders intend to take the land from countries that cannot possibly retaliate. There are other potential differences, such as the time between grabs, etc., but fundamentally it's a difference in intention. I guess my point here is to ask, how can you ever regulate intention? And why would you want to, if the net result is generative?

I have recently "landtraded" with RD, Evo, Sanct, LCN, NA, and Monsters. Each to a various degree of coordination and congeniality, but always with the intention of both parties benefiting from incremental gains in ghost acres. I think the only exchanges you'd have a problem with are the ones with RD, as they were the most optimized and, thus, profitable.

Essentially, from my perspective, you disagree with congeniality and coordination in land grabbing. Not an unfair point to make if you argue that this game is purely a war game. However, we also have a long-established tradition of this not being just a war game. Hence policies like land:land, which assert that countries have a right to retrieve all of their land when hit. Hence pacts loaded with clauses about reps for lost production, etc.

I do not think people who have not tried to play in a style of optimized, mutually-beneficial grabbing can appreciate the challenges of so-called "landtrading". It is not free land on top of traditional play styles. If you're going to 40k+ acres, you're chronically under defended, tech-thin, with no stock until week 5. All of your income is spent building acres, trying to keep enough offense to make retals, and trying to keep tech up. I will concede that the potential payoff is huge, which obviously is why someone would want to play this way. But just because it's a high-risk, high-reward strategy does not mean it is bad for the server. It just means it challenges the superiority of other strategies that have less risk involved.

The main way that I see this being exploitative in the way you insinuate is if an alliance were to completely pact out so that they could do mutually-beneficial grabbing in a bubble, thereby eliminating the 'high risk' aspect of the grabbing strategy. That's why PDM has gone to great lengths to make sure that our countries who are getting super fat through grabbing are subject to normal retal policies rather than being cloistered away in some netting bubble. The result of that has been gains shared with many different tags with whom we have good relations. Like any other situation that involves grabbing, when the grabs get hostile, it becomes a different scenario.

Maybe ghost acres are over-powered (though again, we've never seen a "landtrader" stack up successfully against LaF/Evo's top netters), but don't throw the baby out with the bath water just because some players are trying something different. Anyway, my unedited three cents.

Ivan Game profile

Member
2362

Mar 6th 2012, 17:13:43


You do realise chaoswind that those targets keep are same land because they repeatedly hit each other back and forth and is how they got to those land levels in the first place?

food for thought

Ivan Game profile

Member
2362

Mar 6th 2012, 17:15:59


And also if your in PDM and you can landtrade with evo/monsters/sanct/neofed then why do you stick to the same country repeatedly if you have 150? to choose from (too lazy to count number of countries in those 4 tags)

Sir Balin Game profile

Member
652

Mar 6th 2012, 17:17:52

Originally posted by Ivan:
Balin posted up a list of roughly 5 alliance thats hes landtraded with while infact from the news ive looked at the only actual landtrading going on is between PDM/RD and I dont see why the other tags would when they have signed pacts with 1:1 retals for back and fourth hitting countries just like we offered PDM earlier this set


You'll notice that I said: "I have recently "landtraded" with RD, Evo, Sanct, LCN, NA, and Monsters."

To elaborate, 'recently' meaning over the past 4-5 sets. 'Landtraded' meaning we have coordinated back and forth hits for the purpose of both of us gaining acres.

Ivan Game profile

Member
2362

Mar 6th 2012, 17:18:20


Know what chaos, you can exchange landgrabs with sof too if you want everything that isnt a topfeed is 1 retal, topfeeds being based on 125% of networth or land

Ivan Game profile

Member
2362

Mar 6th 2012, 17:19:25


So far ive failed to see a single country in evo,sacnt,lcn, NA and monsters to do actual landtrading, coordinating hits perhaps but thats an entirely different thing

Sir Balin Game profile

Member
652

Mar 6th 2012, 17:19:55

How is it different Ivan?

Chaoswind Game profile

Member
1054

Mar 6th 2012, 17:20:13

Originally posted by Ivan:

And also if your in PDM and you can landtrade with evo/monsters/sanct/neofed then why do you stick to the same country repeatedly if you have 150? to choose from (too lazy to count number of countries in those 4 tags)


why would I hit a country that haves less land than me?

that is retarded

hit people with either the same or more land than you, is upon those with less land to hit those that have more not the other way around, if they are scared to do so, then why is it my problem? the problem is theirs not mine.

also i fail to see any target in sof that would be worth my time, and they are listed as friends, so I can't hit them.

also L:L void the term of topfeed, and 1:1 retals can easily be abused, ask me I am a tyrany

Edited By: Chaoswind on Mar 6th 2012, 17:22:30
See Original Post
Elysium Lord of fluff
PDM Lord of fluff
Flamey = Fatty
Crazymatt is Fatty 2

BattleKJ Game profile

Member
1200

Mar 6th 2012, 17:33:05

Originally posted by Chaoswind:
He means RD

and clearly RD got Avg Net crown last set without land trading, so they aren't fluff, maybe not as good as Evo or LaF, but clearly their members have earned the right to be called the 3 best netting alliance pound for pound.

so KJ baseless insults just prove you are jelly


They won ANW with 15 tagged and only 85m... wow. Theres a total lack of decent players in RD and PDM, yet they have countries with much more land than some of the best players in the game. You can sugarcoat and defend landtrading as much you want, I am not particulary for it, but I can understand why people do it. My only point is that its building a platform for the skill to be took out of the game.

Sir Balin Game profile

Member
652

Mar 6th 2012, 17:42:34

Originally posted by BattleKJ:
They won ANW with 15 tagged and only 85m... wow. Theres a total lack of decent players in RD and PDM, yet they have countries with much more land than some of the best players in the game. You can sugarcoat and defend landtrading as much you want, I am not particulary for it, but I can understand why people do it. My only point is that its building a platform for the skill to be took out of the game.


It doesn't make any sense to say that the landtraders are crap netters but that the land they put up is overpowered. If the landtraders are crap netters and can't beat Evo's canned strats, what do you care how many acres they have?

BattleKJ Game profile

Member
1200

Mar 6th 2012, 17:44:03

because the crap netters are getting like 70-80k acres to try fluff up on, you're going to get top 10 spots regardless...

de1i Game profile

Member
1639

Mar 6th 2012, 17:44:52

We are recruiting, show me how to get rank 1 and I'll make you a Color of your choosing.

Requiem Game profile

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Mar 6th 2012, 17:49:44

KJ not necessarily. Land trading only gains land well but it has many, many, negatives that make it far less efficient than just LGing.

Sir Balin Game profile

Member
652

Mar 6th 2012, 17:51:05

Grab the 70k countries and get some land? If you're pacted and can't grab them, don't pact them next set and then grab their land?

No one seems to acknowledge the massive amounts of risk that go along with "landtrading". Would love to see some direct responses to my long post on page 5.

BattleKJ Game profile

Member
1200

Mar 6th 2012, 17:51:08

I'm sure like 70-80k acres of this land makes up for it not being as efficient. You guys are effing mad.

Sir Balin Game profile

Member
652

Mar 6th 2012, 17:53:10

What if I did coordinated grabs with 15 different players in different alliances and got to 70k? Still mad?